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Author Topic: Stirlitz Returns to RUA  (Read 7290 times)

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Offline BillyB

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Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2019, 11:48:10 PM »

Article 73 of the Ukrainian constitution says any change of borders is to be voted in a referendum of all Ukrainian people. In other words if an Oblast wants to leave, it has to be by vote of all Ukrainian people. The vote in Crimea wasn't legal.

Yet Crimea wasn't Fully Ukrainian to begin with, its full name being "The autonomous republic of Crimea" , so not all of Ukrainian law applied on Crimea. They certainly had their own right to vote and they did just that.

The Autonomous Republic and Crimea Constitution in the link below. It conforms with the Ukrainian Constitution.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140312144006/http://www.rada.crimea.ua/en/bases-of-activity/konstituciya-ARK

For Crimeans to want to change the border of Ukraine, an all Ukrainian referendum must take place according to Article 73. All Ukrainians must be allowed to vote or the vote is illegal.

States in the USA are given the freedom to make their own laws to a certain extent too. My State legalized marijuana. The federal government says it's illegal. A person in my state gets pulled over with the drug by the State or city cops will not get arrested. If a federal law enforcement officer pulls over someone in my state with the drug, they can get arrested.

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Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2019, 04:54:54 AM »

Article 73 of the Ukrainian constitution says any change of borders is to be voted in a referendum of all Ukrainian people. In other words if an Oblast wants to leave, it has to be by vote of all Ukrainian people. The vote in Crimea wasn't legal.

Yet Crimea wasn't Fully Ukrainian to begin with, its full name being "The autonomous republic of Crimea" , so not all of Ukrainian law applied on Crimea. They certainly had their own right to vote and they did just that.

The Autonomous Republic and Crimea Constitution in the link below. It conforms with the Ukrainian Constitution.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140312144006/http://www.rada.crimea.ua/en/bases-of-activity/konstituciya-ARK

For Crimeans to want to change the border of Ukraine, an all Ukrainian referendum must take place according to Article 73. All Ukrainians must be allowed to vote or the vote is illegal.

States in the USA are given the freedom to make their own laws to a certain extent too. My State legalized marijuana. The federal government says it's illegal. A person in my state gets pulled over with the drug by the State or city cops will not get arrested. If a federal law enforcement officer pulls over someone in my state with the drug, they can get arrested.

Im sorry, I tend to believe a Ukrainian lawyer any day over some URL with rada.ua in the name.

Plus, if you ask the same webpage from somewhere BEFORE the vote (say 2012) , article 48 is the last. So no, sorry, I don' believe the link.
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Online andrewfi

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Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2019, 05:26:12 AM »
Somebody, not Mark, missing the point, again. At the instant of the coup, the state of Ukraine as it existed under the legitimate head of state Yanukovych ended. A new state was formed and, eventually, a new president and head of state was chosen and a new constitution created.

There have been many versions of constitutions in Ukraine but given the actions in 2014 they were rendered moot. That said, if one wishes to rely upon a constitution, Mark's missus is right. :)
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Offline 2tallbill

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Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA..
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2019, 11:49:42 AM »
Poor Stirlitz,

Perhaps he didn't realise RUA stands for Revisionists Unite Against ( facts), now

How could anyone question the 'referendum' result or the need to become Russian ?..

It stands for the Removing of Unapproved Activities or posts that
the forum owner would prefer not to see.

FSUW are not for entry level daters. FSUW don't do vague FSUW like a man of action so be a man of action  If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane. There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.
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Offline BillyB

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Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2019, 09:35:18 PM »
Im sorry, I tend to believe a Ukrainian lawyer any day over some URL with rada.ua in the name.


I've never seen two lawyers agree on everything. They have flaws.

Plus, if you ask the same webpage from somewhere BEFORE the vote (say 2012) , article 48 is the last. So no, sorry, I don' believe the link.

If you have a better link to their Constitution, I will read it. Article 1 is the only thing anyone needs to read to see Crimea's Constitution is tied to Ukraine's

At the instant of the coup, the state of Ukraine as it existed under the legitimate head of state Yanukovych ended. A new state was formed and, eventually, a new president and head of state was chosen and a new constitution created.

There have been many versions of constitutions in Ukraine but given the actions in 2014 they were rendered moot. That said, if one wishes to rely upon a constitution, Mark's missus is right. :)

Usually when a coup happens, the guy who initiated the coup deletes the protection/Constitution of the people. When the people oust a president, they don't delete their protection/Constitution. If you can cite a law pertaining to that issue, I'd like to see it. If you can't cite a law, you are giving us your opinion of what goes down in a coup by the people. Ukraine's Constitution was never a failure. Their politicians were/are a failure.

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Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2019, 04:27:40 AM »
Im sorry, I tend to believe a Ukrainian lawyer any day over some URL with rada.ua in the name.


I've never seen two lawyers agree on everything. They have flaws.

Plus, if you ask the same webpage from somewhere BEFORE the vote (say 2012) , article 48 is the last. So no, sorry, I don' believe the link.

If you have a better link to their Constitution, I will read it. Article 1 is the only thing anyone needs to read to see Crimea's Constitution is tied to Ukraine's

At the instant of the coup, the state of Ukraine as it existed under the legitimate head of state Yanukovych ended. A new state was formed and, eventually, a new president and head of state was chosen and a new constitution created.

There have been many versions of constitutions in Ukraine but given the actions in 2014 they were rendered moot. That said, if one wishes to rely upon a constitution, Mark's missus is right. :)

Usually when a coup happens, the guy who initiated the coup deletes the protection/Constitution of the people. When the people oust a president, they don't delete their protection/Constitution. If you can cite a law pertaining to that issue, I'd like to see it. If you can't cite a law, you are giving us your opinion of what goes down in a coup by the people. Ukraine's Constitution was never a failure. Their politicians were/are a failure.

The impeachment procedures of Ukraine were not followed when Yanukovich was outted. Therefore any government between Yanus leave and Poros election was invalid. Impeachment of a sitting president was a very clear and strict provision in Ukraines laws. It even named a direct successor should this event come to pass, but the person named was also outted with Yanukovich. This alone means it was a full coup and nothing else.
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Online andrewfi

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Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2019, 04:30:37 AM »
Billy, making stuff up to suit your 'argument' will not help you when dealing with people who think on a different level. Some people know the difference between bullshit and knowledge and prefer knowledge as a more useful tool.
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Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2019, 12:08:08 PM »
Billy, making stuff up to suit your 'argument' will not help you when dealing with people who think on a different level. Some people know the difference between bullshit and knowledge and prefer knowledge as a more useful tool.

Looking forward to seeing evidence of factual knowledge from your goodself..

Offline BillyB

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Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2019, 09:58:37 PM »
The impeachment procedures of Ukraine were not followed when Yanukovich was outted. Therefore any government between Yanus leave and Poros election was invalid. Impeachment of a sitting president was a very clear and strict provision in Ukraines laws. It even named a direct successor should this event come to pass, but the person named was also outted with Yanukovich. This alone means it was a full coup and nothing else.

Who ousted Yanukovych? Nobody physically removed him from power. He left Ukraine on his own free will.

Did you read the Ukrainian Constitution? Don't rely on lawyers. It's easy to understand. Impeachment due to crimes committed isn't the only way a president can be relieved of his duties. A president can die or has the inability to exercise his/her powers and be relieved of his/her duties. In Yanukovych's case, the Rada removed him on grounds that he was unable to fulfill his duties. Anybody that doesn't show up for work gets fired....including the president.  Yanukovych was free to come back and defend himself from impeachment but he chose to stay in Russia and buy a 52 million dollar house.

Billy, making stuff up to suit your 'argument' will not help you when dealing with people who think on a different level. Some people know the difference between bullshit and knowledge and prefer knowledge as a more useful tool.

If you like intelligent debate, say something intelligent.  If you want to discuss what was legal and illegal, use the Constitution. Point out an article in the Constitution that backs your position. Your opinion doesn't matter to me.

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Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2019, 06:13:07 AM »

Who ousted Yanukovych? Nobody physically removed him from power. He left Ukraine on his own free will.
You mean, he left Ukraine at gunpoint fearing for his life.
Thats not free will, its a life-or-death decision.

Quote
Did you read the Ukrainian Constitution? Don't rely on lawyers. It's easy to understand. Impeachment due to crimes committed isn't the only way a president can be relieved of his duties. A president can die or has the inability to exercise his/her powers and be relieved of his/her duties. In Yanukovych's case, the Rada removed him on grounds that he was unable to fulfill his duties. Anybody that doesn't show up for work gets fired....including the president.  Yanukovych was free to come back and defend himself from impeachment but he chose to stay in Russia and buy a 52 million dollar house.
I did, there are exactly 3 reasons for impeachment. unable to fill his duties is not one. And its a finite non-amendable list as well.

1. President is sick and/or terminally ill and is unable to fullfill his duties (context!!!!)
2. President committed heinous crimes like mass-murder ala hitler style (forgot the exact wording).
3. President commits treason against the state of Ukraine.

Non-amendable list, only these 3 points count. Yanukovich is not sick or terminally ill, they failed to make a case for treason or heinous crimes.

So. Illegal impeachment.

Also the constitution states directly that if a president is impeached, the prime minister (at that time also of yanukovich's party) takes the presidency and will work towards swift elections to allow the people to choose a new president.

All of that didnt happen either, the prime minister was also denied and there were no swift elections, they dragged their feet for months on end and when it was finally there, 3 major oblasts (Crimea, Donetsk and Lughansk) were not allowed to vote.

Billy, making stuff up to suit your 'argument' will not help you when dealing with people who think on a different level. Some people know the difference between bullshit and knowledge and prefer knowledge as a more useful tool.

Quote
If you like intelligent debate, say something intelligent.  If you want to discuss what was legal and illegal, use the Constitution. Point out an article in the Constitution that backs your position. Your opinion doesn't matter to me.
Articles 109/111 of the ukraine constitution, the wording of which is exacter than my quotes above. Do search for the pre-2014 version as it has since been amended with new articles.

Also , to even be allowed to vote for impeachment, another safety-provision in Ukraine's law wasn't followed. a 3/4 majority of all of the highest circle of judges must agree to the vote and find yanukovich guilty BEFORE a vote. (also didnt happen). Article 108 of the const.
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Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2019, 06:26:47 AM »
Markje,

Yankovych fled Ukrainian justice ( willingly) aided by Russian GRU personnel

You KNOW this and the shame portrayed by the Party of Regions at his family dynasty looting Ukraine!s coffers.

A bit like your 'no military action' in Crimea... you have an interesting (selective) version of factual events..


Offline Confederate

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Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2019, 07:42:33 AM »
I see the usual pro-Russian apologists (Andy and Mark) have gone into hyper-drive trying to defend that bloated thug thief Yanucrookich. As BillyB just wrote upthread he could have easily gone back to Kiev and defended himself against impeachment, he didn’t do it because he was facing life in prison for his crimes against the Ukrainian people.
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Offline Confederate

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Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2019, 07:44:22 AM »
The impeachment procedures of Ukraine were not followed when Yanukovich was outted. Therefore any government between Yanus leave and Poros election was invalid. Impeachment of a sitting president was a very clear and strict provision in Ukraines laws. It even named a direct successor should this event come to pass, but the person named was also outted with Yanukovich. This alone means it was a full coup and nothing else.

Who ousted Yanukovych? Nobody physically removed him from power. He left Ukraine on his own free will.

Did you read the Ukrainian Constitution? Don't rely on lawyers. It's easy to understand. Impeachment due to crimes committed isn't the only way a president can be relieved of his duties. A president can die or has the inability to exercise his/her powers and be relieved of his/her duties. In Yanukovych's case, the Rada removed him on grounds that he was unable to fulfill his duties. Anybody that doesn't show up for work gets fired....including the president.  Yanukovych was free to come back and defend himself from impeachment but he chose to stay in Russia and buy a 52 million dollar house.

Billy, making stuff up to suit your 'argument' will not help you when dealing with people who think on a different level. Some people know the difference between bullshit and knowledge and prefer knowledge as a more useful tool.

If you like intelligent debate, say something intelligent.  If you want to discuss what was legal and illegal, use the Constitution. Point out an article in the Constitution that backs your position. Your opinion doesn't matter to me.

 :chuckle:  tiphat
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Offline BillyB

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Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2019, 09:57:10 AM »
So. Illegal impeachment.


There was no illegal impeachment because there was NO IMPEACHMENT. Impeachment isn't the only way a president can get relieved of his or her duties.

Also the constitution states directly that if a president is impeached, the prime minister (at that time also of yanukovich's party) takes the presidency and will work towards swift elections to allow the people to choose a new president.


Yanyukovych's party can't take the presidency because there was NO IMPEACHMENT.

3 major oblasts (Crimea, Donetsk and Lughansk) were not allowed to vote.


Citizens there could go to voting stations outside a war zone. Government can't set up voting stations in a war zone and guarantee safety. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know if voting stations were set up, some would get bombed.

Also , to even be allowed to vote for impeachment, another safety-provision in Ukraine's law wasn't followed. a 3/4 majority of all of the highest circle of judges must agree to the vote and find yanukovich guilty BEFORE a vote. (also didnt happen). Article 108 of the const.

There was NO VOTE TO IMPEACH so 3/4 majority not necessary. Why apply the rules for impeachment when impeachment didn't happen? Yanukovych abandoned his job The day before he left, he called for early elections on his presidential website. Ukraine had early elections. Nothing wrong with that.

You mean, he left Ukraine at gunpoint fearing for his life.
Thats not free will, its a life-or-death decision.


Are you sure the guns were pointed at him? hundreds of civilians died. Thousands were injured. How many politicians do you know got hurt or died? The parliament issued a warrant for his arrest, accusing him of "mass killing of civilians." Later he was sentenced in absentia to thirteen years' imprisonment for high treason by a Ukrainian court. I'm sure you know he's one if the richest men in the world with his worth estimated to be over 20 billion dollars. Hopefully Yanukovych comes back to Ukraine someday to prove his innocence.



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Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2019, 10:56:14 AM »
I see the usual pro-Russian apologists (Andy and Mark) have gone into hyper-drive trying to defend that bloated thug thief Yanucrookich. As BillyB just wrote upthread he could have easily gone back to Kiev and defended himself against impeachment, he didn’t do it because he was facing life in prison for his crimes against the Ukrainian people.
What does Russia have to do with what happened within Ukraine? thats a whole different country.

Its like saying I am pro-canadian because we are talking about the Impeachment of Clinton.
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Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2019, 11:05:24 AM »

There was no illegal impeachment because there was NO IMPEACHMENT. Impeachment isn't the only way a president can get relieved of his or her duties.

Yanyukovych's party can't take the presidency because there was NO IMPEACHMENT.

There was NO VOTE TO IMPEACH so 3/4 majority not necessary. Why apply the rules for impeachment when impeachment didn't happen? Yanukovych abandoned his job The day before he left, he called for early elections on his presidential website. Ukraine had early elections. Nothing wrong with that.

I am sorry, I thought Impeachment was the proper american-english word to describe all the legal removal of presidents from power. If there is another more common word to cover all legal cases, please educate this non-native english writer. Still stands complete with the correct articles in the Ukrainian constitution that those are the only legal ways to remove a president from power.


3 major oblasts (Crimea, Donetsk and Lughansk) were not allowed to vote.


Citizens there could go to voting stations outside a war zone. Government can't set up voting stations in a war zone and guarantee safety. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know if voting stations were set up, some would get bombed.
The logistics didn't matter. If you turned up with a Passport of Ukraine issued in said 3 oblasts you were denied the vote. Thats what I meant with "not allowed to vote". (Personal experience also, from my Crimean inlaws whom did try to vote but werent allowed to. Source: Myself.).



You mean, he left Ukraine at gunpoint fearing for his life.
Thats not free will, its a life-or-death decision.


Are you sure the guns were pointed at him? hundreds of civilians died. Thousands were injured. How many politicians do you know got hurt or died? The parliament issued a warrant for his arrest, accusing him of "mass killing of civilians." Later he was sentenced in absentia to thirteen years' imprisonment for high treason by a Ukrainian court. I'm sure you know he's one if the richest men in the world with his worth estimated to be over 20 billion dollars. Hopefully Yanukovych comes back to Ukraine someday to prove his innocence.

I truly hope so too. It shouldn't matter where the guns were pointed, he had enough loyal guards to provide him with safety.

Leaving his post could be treason, although Ukrainian law at that time did not stipulate a president must be physically close to Ukraine/kyiv. Another thing that was fixed later.

The arrest warrent with "mass murder" of civilians is a big joke, if you compare it to what Poroshenko did  :censored: Thank god he is gone. Will see what happens with Zelensky.

Mark.
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Offline Confederate

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Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2019, 01:23:45 PM »
I see the usual pro-Russian apologists (Andy and Mark) have gone into hyper-drive trying to defend that bloated thug thief Yanucrookich. As BillyB just wrote upthread he could have easily gone back to Kiev and defended himself against impeachment, he didn’t do it because he was facing life in prison for his crimes against the Ukrainian people.
What does Russia have to do with what happened within Ukraine? thats a whole different country.


If Russia had nothing to do with it then why did the weasel run there for shelter?

If Russia is innocent of harboring a convicted felon and fugitive from justice when

will Russia be sending him back to face justice in Ukraine where he has been

convicted of treason and other crimes against the Ukrainian people?

Don’t try your sneaky word games with me, Mark.
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Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2019, 02:15:43 PM »

If Russia had nothing to do with it then why did the weasel run there for shelter?
Dunno, why did snowden? why did 1 million ukrainians whom no longer felt safe in their own country?

Perhaps because its a world-power and stable country? A country that can offer shelter from Ukraine if it needs to?


If Russia is innocent of harboring a convicted felon and fugitive from justice when
He is guilty of a crime then? that hasn't been determined yet.

will Russia be sending him back to face justice in Ukraine where he has been

convicted of treason and other crimes against the Ukrainian people?

Don’t try your sneaky word games with me, Mark.
He hasn't been convicted a.f.a.i.k but I must confess i don't really follow the news.

As to extradition: Did Ukraine send a request yet? (or do they think its useless and didnt bother, which gives Russia no grounds to give him up)

Also, Interpol did for a short time list Yanukovich as a wanted criminal, but took it down listing "political prosecutions are not welcome".
So why did interpol decide it was not a real prosecution but rather someone whom was politically hunted with the law.
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Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2019, 02:39:42 PM »
As per normal here, the subject has gone off track.
How it happened, regardless of your position of the law.
I suspect not much happened as it should, maybe from either side.

It has happened, it has created a big divided in 2 nations.
Which will likely never be repaired.
We have even lost friends here over it.
My wife lost her land in Krym.
funny how it belongs to a Russian now.

So argue all you want, you will find a multitude
of people on both sides who will never agree.
There is nothing permanent except change.

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Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA
« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2019, 02:45:14 PM »
As per normal here, the subject has gone off track.
How it happened, regardless of your position of the law.
I suspect not much happened as it should, maybe from either side.

It has happened, it has created a big divided in 2 nations.
Which will likely never be repaired.
We have even lost friends here over it.
My wife lost her land in Krym.
funny how it belongs to a Russian now.

So argue all you want, you will find a multitude
of people on both sides who will never agree.

You’re off base. The truth is the truth and it will come out in the end.

And unlike Putin’s Russia motto might doesn’t make right.
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Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA
« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2019, 02:57:44 PM »
what am i off base on?
There is nothing permanent except change.

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Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA
« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2019, 04:23:02 PM »
We are far removed from matters regarding Stirlitz.

But anyways the first woman I dated from Russia her family owned a small hotel and some other rental properties on the Krym. They lost all of it when the Krym 'joined' Russia. Notwithstanding they were Russian. As well as Orthodox (Christian's) and Tartars.

So much for the rule of law in Putin's Russia.
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Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA
« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2019, 04:34:43 PM »
So I am checking in to welcome Stirlitz back.

I saw him in Odessa when he was working as border guard at the airport.  I had already passed security and was in the business lounge.  As he can (or could at that time) go wherever he wished at the airport, he came to see me.

So we greeted each other as friends, and after the other patrons in the business lounge looked at me, quizzically, clearly thinking, "Who is this guy that border guards, who always look so stern and NEVER smile, are so friendly with?"

 :ROFL:

B/B
Saving the World, One Clue at a Time
If your religion insults my intelligence, don't be surprised when my intelligence insults your religion.

Online Markje

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Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA
« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2019, 05:17:08 PM »
We are far removed from matters regarding Stirlitz.

But anyways the first woman I dated from Russia her family owned a small hotel and some other rental properties on the Krym. They lost all of it when the Krym 'joined' Russia. Notwithstanding they were Russian. As well as Orthodox (Christian's) and Tartars.

So much for the rule of law in Putin's Russia.


Ah right, and you knew what went wrong and therefore its a Lawless country and Russias fault.

NS1 had a similar story and that amounted to 'forgetting' to register your properties with Russia after it joined Crimea.

You can change anything in life, but a BMW only for a BMW
My first trip to my wife: To Evpatoria!
My road trip to Crimea: Roadtrip to Evpatoria

Online Markje

  • Member
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    • Mark's unix pages
  • Spouses Country: Crimea
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 20+
Re: Stirlitz Returns to RUA
« Reply #49 on: April 27, 2019, 05:18:16 PM »
So I am checking in to welcome Stirlitz back.

I saw him in Odessa when he was working as border guard at the airport.  I had already passed security and was in the business lounge.  As he can (or could at that time) go wherever he wished at the airport, he came to see me.

So we greeted each other as friends, and after the other patrons in the business lounge looked at me, quizzically, clearly thinking, "Who is this guy that border guards, who always look so stern and NEVER smile, are so friendly with?"

 :ROFL:

B/B

How things have changed, he certainly smiled alot when we drove from Odessa->Evp. together. Must've enjoyed the ride as much as I did in that old classic volga.
You can change anything in life, but a BMW only for a BMW
My first trip to my wife: To Evpatoria!
My road trip to Crimea: Roadtrip to Evpatoria


 

 

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