Electric Cars

[andrewfi]

Here's why the push to the electrification of transport: https://srsroccoreport.com/the-end-of-the-oil-giants-and-what-it-means/

I had been expecting something like this to pop up because of the widespread push toward electrification and renewable energy. Objectively we know that electric cars are not the panacea they are painted, the costs of setting up the required infrastructure are huge and the cars solve problems that most of us do not have and create more issues of their own.

It had been my surmise that the reason for moving away from liquid energy was due to supply issues of which the public was unaware. As the article points out, there's plenty of oil in the ground, however, we are going to need it for other things than energy.

No matter what other shortcomings exist, leccy cars are absolutely agnostic as to the power that was used to generate the electric current.

[andrewfi]

Chris, re. the Gridserve scam.

Have a look at this: https://companycheck.co.uk/director/917487491/MR-TODDINGTON-HARPER/summary Toddington Harper is the MD of Gridserve. He must hold some kind of record for directorships. I won't say that all the businesses he is associated with are failures, because I am sure that, from his perspective, none of them are. Look at the net worth of the businesses on the list. The ones I looked at seem to be administrative businesses, not trading. I bet they use a similar PO Box mailing address too.

As to Arup's 'involvement', they want to build stuff. They hope to get paid for future work. Giving a probably fake business a free handjob is no more than covering their bets with a free press release quote. If a bloke came to you with a plan to build a load of stuff and he had rounded up some media attention for his plan, I bet that you'd have your hand in his trousersbe happy to give a nice quote for the local meeja.

The real purpose of the business, to this point, has been to start projects and flip them without even breaking ground. What they do is identify sites with good potential, they acquire the land (not in every case, however) get the required permissions and then flog the project on to a proper business.

[Chris]

Chris, re. the Gridserve scam.

Have a look at this: https://companycheck.co.uk/director/917487491/MR-TODDINGTON-HARPER/summary Toddington Harper is the MD of Gridserve. He must hold some kind of record for directorships. I won't say that all the businesses he is associated with are failures, because I am sure that, from his perspective, none of them are. Look at the net worth of the businesses on the list. The ones I looked at seem to be administrative businesses, not trading. I bet they use a similar PO Box mailing address too.

As to Arup's 'involvement', they want to build stuff. They hope to get paid for future work. Giving a probably fake business a free handjob is no more than covering their bets with a free press release quote. If a bloke came to you with a plan to build a load of stuff and he had rounded up some media attention for his plan, I bet that you'd have your hand in his trousersbe happy to give a nice quote for the local meeja.

The real purpose of the business, to this point, has been to start projects and flip them without even breaking ground. What they do is identify sites with good potential, they acquire the land (not in every case, however) get the required permissions and then flog the project on to a proper business.

? Toddington has been around hasn’t he, it must be a full time job for him, creating Directorships and then resigning.

Here he is

Their registered address etc being where it is, does look  a bit odd and possibly on the face of it looks a bit suspect, however, I don’t feel Gridserve per se is a scam. It would appear that the UK government are finally waking up from their long slumber and have set up an investment fund to enable the development of electric vehicle charging infrastructure, amongst other things. The President of the Board of Trade, Liam Fox, announced the launch of the UK’s first Energy Investment Portfolio, worth an estimated £5 billion, at a meeting of the board in Swansea, Wales, on November 15th, 2018. It seems that £1 billion of that government investment fund has enabled Gridserve to set up large electric vehicle (EV) charging stations, with up to 24 charge points at strategic points along the UK’s extensive road network. These will be akin to the service areas on motorways, with extensive parking and a lounge for drivers and their passengers, with all the usual facilities. Some might actually be sited at the Motorway Service Areas. Some are to be powered by on-site solar farms and battery banks, and some from the grid. New renewable energy farms will also be set up to feed into the grid all the power required, so that all electricity would be 100% renewable. The chargers will have a power capacity of up to 500kW for cars, which is 10 times the current level 3 standard of 50kW capacity, and several megawatts for large commercial vehicles.

We have nothing like this at the moment, and even Tesla stations are not comparable in the number and capacity of chargers. Currently, Tesla stations are much better than any provided by any other organisation. Tesla stations are mostly sited at motorway service areas, where extensive parking, shopping, dining, and leisure facilities are already provided.

In addition, we have others commenting on Gridserve, according to the likes of Robert Llewellyn, well known for his Fully Charged channel amongst other things, Gridserve started in Saudi Arabia and built up to become  a massive Global Energy Co, they installed Solar Power to help pump oil along the Saudi pipelines, and now apparently, are one of the biggest in Solar energy, Worldwide.
This is what he and others are saying anyway, listen here from 12:35 min onwards.

Anyway, lets hope the Gridserve Electric Forecourts come to fruition, it will be great for EV owners like myself.


PS I collected my I Pace a few weeks ago and couldn't be happier, the instant torque and overall performance brings a grin to my face every time I jump behind the wheel. Simply amazing! 

[andrewfi]

For sure we will see electric charging forecourts. Judging from this company's track record what they will do is go round getting as many sites as they can and then flip them to the eventual operators. In itself that's not a bad thing, it's actually a useful function in the process but I'd be very surprised if there's ever more than one or two Gridserve forecourts and they will be operated as a proof of concept before being flipped themselves.

To be straight about this whole EV thing, I am not against them. As a person who enjoys traveling but is not particularly a driver, I'd like to have an EV that matches the capability of my car at similar cost. But there's a whole heap of infrastructure issues to account for plus, I fully expect that the eventual cost of running an EV will be no cheaper than the cost of a liquid fuelled vehicle given that so much tax revenue goes to the government. IIRC, the cost of a litre of petrol is about 40p in the UK. That puts about 90p going in tax. If people could buy petrol for 40p a litre they'd not be likely to buy an EV.

I also think that there's an unspoken reason for the rush to EVs. When I read about the Saudi Garwar field a light came on above my head. It might well be that we may be moving to a point where we must conserve petroleum and burn other fuels for our energy needs. Shifting to EVs will make that process possible.

[Chris]

For sure we will see electric charging forecourts. Judging from this company's track record what they will do is go round getting as many sites as they can and then flip them to the eventual operators. In itself that's not a bad thing, it's actually a useful function in the process but I'd be very surprised if there's ever more than one or two Gridserve forecourts and they will be operated as a proof of concept before being flipped themselves.

That may well be how this pans out with them, but even if this is the case, then it still bodes well for the UK, someone needs to kickstart these new electric forecourts, and the likes of Fastned (already built a few in the North East) and Ionity etc need some competition.

To be straight about this whole EV thing, I am not against them. As a person who enjoys traveling but is not particularly a driver, I'd like to have an EV that matches the capability of my car at similar cost. But there's a whole heap of infrastructure issues to account for plus, I fully expect that the eventual cost of running an EV will be no cheaper than the cost of a liquid fuelled vehicle given that so much tax revenue goes to the government. IIRC, the cost of a litre of petrol is about 40p in the UK. That puts about 90p going in tax. If people could buy petrol for 40p a litre they'd not be likely to buy an EV.

I also think that there's an unspoken reason for the rush to EVs. When I read about the Saudi Garwar field a light came on above my head. It might well be that we may be moving to a point where we must conserve petroleum and burn other fuels for our energy needs. Shifting to EVs will make that process possible.

There are a number of reason people will change to EV's, carbon emissions, saving the planet etc etc, but for most, the biggest argument for going electric will be price and here’s where electric cars start to stack up serious advantages for the cost-savvy consumer.

For starters, fully electric vehicles are exempt from road tax in the UK, and don’t have to pay congestion or emission charges currently in place in London and being considered for a number of other towns and even some motorways in the next few years.

EVs are mechanically much simpler machines than internal combustion engines, meaning their service & maintenance costs are roughly half those of a petrol car. EVs retain more of their value over time, with healthy second-hand markets meaning currently a used Nissan Leaf has actually risen in value by 20% in the past 12 months.

But the biggest factor is fuel cost, the Government backed Go Ultra Low campaign claims that a full charge could cost as little as £3, (mine costs around £11, cost me £1.54 for 4 hours charge last night) working out at approximately 3p per mile, compared to about 13p per mile for the average petrol car – more than four times as expensive. Over the lifespan of a car, this difference could save drivers tens of thousands of pounds.

Of course, EVs are currently more expensive to buy up-front than traditional fossil fuel vehicles, but with major manufacturers piling into mass production, battery technology improving all the time, and governments keen to encourage uptake through subsidies and grants, costs are expected to keep on falling.

Although the UK lags behind some countries like Norway in the pace of the EV transformation, the growth in sales is still astounding, in 2013, the total number of electric vehicles in the UK was less than 3000, but by the end of 2018 there were more than 5000 new EV registrations every month! and the number of charging points is keeping pace with demand, almost doubling to 20,000 points over the last 2 years. Infrastructure is still a concern for many drivers, but EV charger installation is now a big part of power companies future strategies as they bid to provide a low-carbon connection gateway.

[andrewfi]

Many people are making the same mistake as you and assuming that tax savings are real and will last. They will not last. The government will not give up revenue. They are providing an incentive to get people into electric cars but they still need the revenue. Just as has happened elsewhere, those incentives will be removed.

Will cars be cheaper? Of course they won't, not if the government's ideas about 'safety' and removal of drivers come to pass. The cost of implementing those on cars is huge. Even now, the toy system fitted to some Teslas costs over $7000. Proper systems are much more costly and that's a product of the types of sensor required.

No electric car, except for the most costly, is ever going to be less expensive, like for like than a normal internal combustion engine car, net of taxes and incentives.

[msmoby]

When I read andrewfi posting about economics..ones knows it will be entertaining

Of course your running costs and tax savings are real

They are likely to lay for some time yet...as govts WANT us to swap...but not too swiftly...to allow for non-home charging points to expand.

I was reading this am that EV sales were up 14  percent in the UK and that over 50 percent of people offered a combustion and equiv EV preferred the CU...

City dwellers without off-road parking are worried about night time charging.

[Chris]

Many people are making the same mistake as you and assuming that tax savings are real and will last. They will not last. The government will not give up revenue. They are providing an incentive to get people into electric cars but they still need the revenue. Just as has happened elsewhere, those incentives will be removed.

Will cars be cheaper? Of course they won't, not if the government's ideas about 'safety' and removal of drivers come to pass. The cost of implementing those on cars is huge. Even now, the toy system fitted to some Teslas costs over $7000. Proper systems are much more costly and that's a product of the types of sensor required.

No electric car, except for the most costly, is ever going to be less expensive, like for like than a normal internal combustion engine car, net of taxes and incentives.

No you are mistaken Andrew, don't you make the mistake of thinking that I paid nearly £80k for a car to SAVE money, I did it because its just about the best car I have ever owned/driven and I have had some pretty expensive cars over the years and it is so exhilarating to drive, try one!

Of course I realise the Government will eventually find some way of taxing EV's, but does it worry me, not one jot! I had the same argument with my Dad, he said the same as you, when they start to loose the oil tax revenues they will tax electric, I asked when will that be, he said who knows, 20 - 30 years, guess what? 20 - 30 years ahead doesn't bother me at all, by then there will be something else and I might not even be driving then, so why worry about it? make the most of what benefits we have now.

[Chris]

When I read andrewfi posting about economics..ones knows it will be entertaining

Of course your running costs and tax savings are real

They are likely to lay for some time yet...as govts WANT us to swap...but not too swiftly...to allow for non-home charging points to expand.

I was reading this am that EV sales were up 14  percent in the UK and that over 50 percent of people offered a combustion and equiv EV preferred the CU...

City dwellers without off-road parking are worried about night time charging.

Used to be one of the drawbacks, but now EV chargers are being installed in lamp posts, in fact, in London, you can ask your LA to install one for you and you just pay the going rate for the electricity. Of course there are other ways to charge EV's even if you don't have off street parking, but it is usually a standard answer people give against EV's because they are not educated to the facts.

[andrewfi]

Yes, but you can't then use those as a justification for leccy cars being cheap. Right now you get an effective discount making your expensive car seem more comparable to a normal car. So the leccy car is not truly price competitive. When the incentives are removed then the cars will cost more and so not be so cheap in relative, or real, terms.

If you want a leccy car now then, yes take advantage of the discounts. But they are not 'real' discounts. You are being given some of the money I pay in RFL and petrol duty.

I am not knocking you buying a car, but the justifications you have presented for making people to make such a purchase are specious - that's to say, apparently plausible, but actually not.

Don't worry about it, lots of people will do as you have done and, if I am correct about the, thus far, invoiced real reasons then we will all have to do this. On that note, I find myself wondering whether the reason for manufacturers and others to get into alternate forms of car ownership and use are based upon an expected future where inexpensive, mass market, cars are no longer a viable option due to high real costs and thus mass personal transport systems need to be envisioned and created today.

[andrewfi]

Moby, you silly little man, if you say to any body 'here's a big discount on a car, here' s effectively free fuel' then people would be insane to ask for a higher price alternative.

What real people do, with real money, in the real world is not the same because they look at real costs.

In the real world in every case where incentives to buy leccy cars were removed sales plummeted. People are not as stupid as you like to present yourself.

[Chris]

Yes, but you can't then use those as a justification for leccy cars being cheap. Right now you get an effective discount making your expensive car seem more comparable to a normal car. So the leccy car is not truly price competitive. When the incentives are removed then the cars will cost more and so not be so cheap in relative, or real, terms.

The EV OLEV grant at the moment is £3500, it was £4500 and dropped by a grand just before I placed my order in early December 2018. That grant will drop further, could be anytime, or it could be a few years, who knows at the moment. On cheaper EV's it does make quite a difference to the overall cost of the car, on more expensive EV's not quite so much. The running costs however, are still much cheaper than an ICE vehicle, cheaper servicing, fuel, road taxes etc.

Don't worry about it, lots of people will do as you have done and, if I am correct about the, thus far, invoiced real reasons then we will all have to do this. On that note, I find myself wondering whether the reason for manufacturers and others to get into alternate forms of car ownership and use are based upon an expected future where inexpensive, mass market, cars are no longer a viable option due to high real costs and thus mass personal transport systems need to be envisioned and created today.

This will be the case, car ownership will change over the next few years, many large manufacturers are already introducing concept cars for carrying people around cities especially, they will not be owned by the masses, but called when required, the Renault EZ Go concept is just one of them https://www.fullychargedshow.co.uk/previous-episodes#/renault-ezgo-concept/  other car companies are offering hiring of vehicles when required, instead of buying one and having all the ongoing costs,  the benefits of not owning a car but having a similar level of mobility available makes enormous sense.

[msmoby]

Moby, you silly little man, if you say to any body 'here's a big discount on a car, here' s effectively free fuel' then people would be insane to ask for a higher price alternative.

What real people do, with real money, in the real world is not the same because they look at real costs.

In the real world in every case where incentives to buy leccy cars were removed sales plummeted. People are not as stupid as you like to present yourself.

'Naughty' andrewfi,

Deal with the specific of my point - instead of posting even dafter..

Have you even driven a Tesla/ Jag I-pace - or even a hybrid  or a Renault Twizzie ? ..

FACT: Electric cars cost far more than their CU equiv - even with incentives in the UK


Norway has got it right  - We need transport that is makes for cleaner cities - be it electric , Hydrogen, etc.,

The UK govt has REDUCED the tax benefit by £1000, already ..



You don't even understand the reality of my world - given what you've posted over the years - let alone the world in general !

[froid]

Old fossils spouting the benefits of fossil fuels amuse me.  

[Markje]

Old fossils spouting the benefits of fossil fuels amuse me.

Wish I could drive electric, but the battery range/charge times are holding me back.

[Manny]

PS I collected my I Pace a few weeks ago and couldn't be happier, the instant torque and overall performance brings a grin to my face every time I jump behind the wheel. Simply amazing! 

An EV feels like a long way off for someone like me who likes his fossil fuel V8.

But I have driven one, I could adapt to the great torque and silence! I think the price needs to come down and we need to see more what happens with residual prices in the used market. Also what happens to values when replacement batteries are required and when will aftermarket batteries be available?

People who I know to be on the ball keep buying them. Chris is the latest example.

I have read some stuff that suggests electric is the stepping stone on the way to hydrogen though.

[Chris]

PS I collected my I Pace a few weeks ago and couldn't be happier, the instant torque and overall performance brings a grin to my face every time I jump behind the wheel. Simply amazing! 

An EV feels like a long way off for someone like me who likes his fossil fuel V8.

If you would have asked me middle of last year, I would have said the same, but things soon changed once I had looked into an EV in more depth and then test drove some and had one on an extended loan for a period of time, ask me now if I would go back to an ICE car and my answer at the moment would be a definite NO!

But I have driven one, I could adapt to the great torque and silence! I think the price needs to come down and we need to see more what happens with residual prices in the used market. Also what happens to values when replacement batteries are required and when will aftermarket batteries be available?

I don't keep cars for longer than three years normally, this one comes with an 8 year battery warranty, and current EV batteries have proven to last a lot longer than that with little or no serious degradation, so battery life doesn't affect me and in truth doesn't affect most EV drivers currently.

People who I know to be on the ball keep buying them. Chris is the latest example.

I have read some stuff that suggests electric is the stepping stone on the way to hydrogen though.

They are the future and yes no doubt there will be other types of fuels and so on available in the next few years, hydrogen may well be one of them, different types of batteries costing less and lasting longer etc etc, different car manufacturers bringing out new models etc,  but you can't keep putting things off just in case something better is just around the corner, or maybe not at all. I made the decision and couldn't be happier at the moment.



PS

It says something about electric vehicles when the I Pace has now won:-

World car of year, World design car of year and World green car of year awards in New York! in addition to UK COTY, German COTY and European COTY and just in the last couple of weeks, the latest is the best car of any sort in the 350 to 450 HP power band.

Many of these awards are for all categories and include ICE vehicles in the same category.

[andrewfi]

The purpose of an incentive is to get people to do something that they would not otherwise do. A discount is a form of incentive. The purpose of incentivising EV purchases is to change the behaviour of the car buying public. The incentive does not need to make the car cheaper to buy than alternatives, it merely has to shift perception.

When incentives are removed we see that the propensity to buy EVs changes.

As to moby's point about cost though, let's look at that. In Norway, a place I mentioned before, the cost of, for example, an ICE VW Golf is significantly higher than the EV version. That's due to incentives, largely paid for by drivers of ICE vehicles. https://www.citylab.com/environment/2018/12/norway-electric-vehicle-models-incentives-car-free-oslo/578932/

From next year onward, EVs will cost 25% more than they do today as VAT is going to be charged on their purchase. Let us see if Norway follows every other market where EV sales fall when incentives are removed.

Here's what happened in Denmark after incentives were removed: https://cleantechnica.com/2018/05/01/denmark-rethinks-ev-incentives-after-market-collapses/ The market for EVs shrank by about 80%. Sales of Teslas are falling in the USA as the Federal incentive is being withdrawn. The same story applies everywhere I have seen.

In Denmark, due to the dearth of sales of EVs in 2017 the original incentives were replaced and sales grew to 1500 cars during 2018. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/29/ev-sales-in-denmark-grows-tenfold-danes-are-getting-into-the-electric-game/
Notably, due to the incentive structure, the cars being sold are lower end models. The better-off folks prefer to drive ICE vehicles rather than the weak tea EVs out there right now.
People vote with their wallets.

The picture is clear. People do not want to buy EVs unless they are bribed to do so.

moby,

If you read my words, carefully, you will search in vain for any words that suggested electric vehicles were cheaper than then internal combustion vehicles. You invented (lied?) stuff again.

[msmoby]

Lots of noise / blah blah that we can re-visit and bust when the time comes

moby,

If you read my words, carefully, you will search in vain for any words that suggested electric vehicles were cheaper than then internal combustion vehicles. You invented (lied?) stuff again.

Considering you are THE champion of making stuff up and being busted - you are great value..

I read you weasel words and note that you weren't careful enough ...   

EV's ARE cheaper to run .. 

IF you had read MY words - you'd realise that nations - like FSU Georgia - are thronging to Hybrids - particularly Prius - and importing write-offs from the USA.   The incentives from govt .. ?  Virtually zip - other than zero vat and reduced registration fees - which are v.low, anyway.

IF you travelled -  as much as you suggest - within the FSU - you'd know these things ...

In Russia, I see very few Hybrids or EVs - despite much reduced taxes... There was no Hybrid / EV version of our current Nissan available..


So much for andrewfi's : "The picture is clear. People do not want to buy EVs unless they are bribed to do so." ...

As for:

The better-off folks prefer to drive ICE vehicles rather than the weak tea EVs out there right now.

Yet ANOTHER andrewfi bollox generalisation ..

Better off people tend to buy bigger cars, with bigger engines - knowing they are less economical ...  Some better off people realise that many EVs can blow the doors off much more expensive V8's away from the lights  ..  due to the low down tongue available

Is there ANY subject you excel at - other than making stuff up ?



 

[Chris]

Hot off the press!

EV charging sites outnumber petrol stations for first time in the UK

New figures from Zap-Map reveal the extent of the UK’s electric vehicle revolution, with the number of public charging locations now surpassing petrol stations for the first time.

Data from Zap-Map shows that as of 22 May, there are 8,471 charging locations across the UK, hosting a total of 13,613 charging devices. In contrast, as of the end of April, there are currently only 8,400 petrol stations in the UK, a figure which is continuing to decline.

There has been huge growth in the UK public EV charge point market in the past 12 months, with the number of locations increasing 57% in that time. Charging points can now be found across the length and breadth of the country, from the Shetland Islands to the Cornish Riviera, from Giant’s Causeway to the White Cliffs of Dover.

The expanding network supports an increasing number of electric vehicles on the road, expanding from only 3,500 cars just six years ago, to more than 210,000 currently. Analysts forecast that by the end of 2022, at east 1 million EVs will be in use in the UK, a figure backed by government policy that looks to electrify all new cars and vans by 2040.

Ben Lane, co-founder and CTO at Zap-Map commented: “The public and private sectors are now investing heavily in the UK’s EV charging infrastructure to ensure that there are sufficient charging points to support the growing electric fleet. This month’s milestone reveals of the rapid pace of change already underway as the age of the combustion engine gives way to an all-electric era with vehicles offering both zero-emissions and a better driving experience.”

In parallel to the increase in number of charging locations, new technologies are becoming available which offer higher charging rates. Whereas most ‘rapid’ units are rated at 50 kW, enabling a standard EV to be fully charged in 40 minutes, the latest ‘ultra-rapid’ units are capable of up to 350 kW; ready for the next generation of longer-range electric vehicles.


References: Public EV charge point location information from Zap-Map’s database, both historical and current, covering the United Kingdom. Petrol station data from Experian Catalist Market Summary Report, April 2019, with historical downward trend highlighted by Statista.

[andrewfi]

Moby, since when were 'cheaper to run' and and 'cheaper to buy' synonyms?

Please stop being dishonest. If you have a point to make then make it, base it in fact and don't lie.

As you probably know but choose to dissemble about, hybrid cars are not the same as electric cars. As you know, but choose to be dishonest about, almost every point we have been discussing is about electric cars, and certainly was the case I was discussing.

Lying Moby, try to do something better, gain some credibility and respect by trying to do things that serve to build both these things. 

[andrewfi]

Chris, you are one of those I discussed up thread. You are wealthy enough to pay full price for an EV. There's not many like you, the numbers paint the picture very clearly.

Using oneself as a single data point and then extending that single case in an attempt to make a broad generalisation almost never works. You made an individual choice based upon your preferences and your ability to indulge them. Even in Denmark some people still buy the Model S, but sales are miniscule in comparison to conventional ICE vehicles in the same market segments. Electric cars, currently, only sell in any kind of volume when buying is incentivised in one form or another. The data is conclusive on this point.

[msmoby]

Moby, since when were 'cheaper to run' and and 'cheaper to buy' synonyms? 

Only as long as you were inattentive enough to suggest same .. or suggest same on my behalf ..   We'll say you are mistaken.. it's much more polite - as your propensity to mistakes is approaching legendary status..

As you probably know but choose to dissemble about, hybrid cars are not the same as electric cars.

Oh, DO stop obfuscating - when busted, andrewfi ..

The Mitsubishi Outlander has a ICE and a charging point AND is a hybrid .. Most would acknowledge that this makes it - occasionally an EV  - just like a Hybrid - without charging capacity ....

your propensity to mistakes is approaching legendary status..

Lying Moby, try to do something better, gain some credibility and respect by trying to do things that serve to build both these things. 

Tut, Tut andrewfi..  YOU are the chap who has a PROVEN record of 'mistakes'

1/ on people's personal circumstances
2/ Applying for British Visas
3/ How FSU Oligarchs bought up vouchers for plants to make it big during the break up of the Soviet Union
4/ Who does biz with who...

This list is long - these were but a few - very - recent examples  ...

Do try to be a little more thoughtful about who is economical with fact - and turn to Google.. for help .. it shows......

Back on topic ..

Electric cars ... Now what ARE those heavy things under the floors of Prius ? .. Ah yes...Batteries - that drive electric motors ...

[Contrarian]

According to the study directed by Christoph Buchal of the University of Cologne, published by the Ifo Institute in Munich last week, electric vehicles have "significantly higher CO2 emissions than diesel cars." That is due to the significant amount of energy used in the mining and processing of lithium, cobalt, and manganese, which are critical raw materials for the production of electric car batteries.


https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-04-21/new-study-shocks-electric-cars-considerably-worse-climate-diesel-cars

[andrewfi]

Moby, stop drinking, go get a job, a legal one. Something to stop, or reduce, your public propensity to 'fantasy'.