Electric Cars

[andrewfi]

Why would a person driving a Porsche Macan consider a Model 3 to be a worthwhile change to make?

Sounds rather like a point being made by a person who drives neither!

[froid]

Electric oven: 2000-4000 watts (at most) , a fast charger is more like 150.000 watts when in use. [  indeed ]

Did you just make up that number?  Level 2 specs only go up to 19.2 kilowatts (kW).  And many cars will draw less than that.  Leaf 3.3kW, Electric Ford Focus Ev 6.6kW for example. 

Why would a person driving a Porsche Macan consider a Model 3 to be a worthwhile change to make?

Sounds rather like a point being made by a person who drives neither!

So he pays $671 for his Model 3 and saves $712 on his driving.  Seems like he comes out ahead on this deal, he has two cars, basically the payments for one are paid for by it's efficiency and he has $41 extra to boot.  Sounds like you being your typical Andrew is all which was old 10 years ago. 

[Herrie]

Electric oven: 2000-4000 watts (at most) , a fast charger is more like 150.000 watts when in use. [  indeed ]

Did you just make up that number?  Level 2 specs only go up to 19.2 kilowatts (kW).  And many cars will draw less than that.  Leaf 3.3kW, Electric Ford Focus Ev 6.6kW for example. 

Actually the Tesla Superchargers (not the ones you'd have at home) do get to that level. But that's not something you would install at home.

[andrewfi]

Numbers, they are difficult things. 150,000 watts is 15KW
A 240-volt system, such as we have as standard in Europe, and that you can have in the U.S can support Level 2 charging. For the number impaired that's 192,000 watts.

Trying to charge an EV with your standard power supply, in the U.S will recharge at a rate of about 1-2 miles per hour, clearly impractical - unless one is trying at any cost to one's own dignity to make a very bad point.

Learn more here: https://www.pluglesspower.com/learn/tesla-model-s-charging-home-public-autonomously/

Back to my point. There's no software fix to enable an EV user to charge their car that will not impact upon the ability of the grid to support it at any point close to a tipping point of EV car adoption. A Level 2 charger takes anything from 5 - 20 hours to fully charge a car meaning that it will extend peak consumption into the night. In all likelihood, there will be smart meter rationing meaning that cars will have charging delayed until the local transformer can manage a charge and owners will drive to work in their gasoline-powered cars.

Some countries are much better placed to achieve sensible results - New Zealand springs to mind.

[msmoby]

Numbers are easy..the problem is the posters who sinply do not pause to READ, then THINK before proving they are not up to speed re EVs and the tupes of charging used at home.

So...for those who CAN read... there is no problem and would be no problem charging cars overnight.in the UK.

Plus there is plenty of time to build the infrastructure needed to cope.... even if the demand for EVs expands exponentially...

[Markje]

Electric oven: 2000-4000 watts (at most) , a fast charger is more like 150.000 watts when in use. [  indeed ]

Did you just make up that number?  Level 2 specs only go up to 19.2 kilowatts (kW).  And many cars will draw less than that.  Leaf 3.3kW, Electric Ford Focus Ev 6.6kW for example. 

Actually the Tesla Superchargers (not the ones you'd have at home) do get to that level. But that's not something you would install at home.

True. But it was moby who suggested that.

[msmoby]

I see a lot of back peddling and blame shifting...))

That's what happens when our 'experts' post about stuff they haven!t investigated or even tried.

Taking the UK as an example...It could cope with A LOT more EVs being charged overnight

[rosco]

even if the demand for EVs expands exponentially...

Before mouthing off with random facts again Moby, have you worked out what exponentially means yet?? 

[Markje]

Numbers are easy..the problem is the posters who sinply do not pause to READ, then THINK before proving they are not up to speed re EVs and the tupes of charging used at home.

Oh i think most people can actually read, you just write something you don't mean and then either change the meaning or move the goal posts, as will become evident in this very post 2 lines later :

I have no idea what "tupes" is, but I am thinking you think about "types".

There are currently quite a few standards when it comes to Electric vehicles, thanks to the market not wanting to standardise without government encouragement (and hefty fines).

The most common home-use ones in Europe are 3.7 kw / 11 kw. (15 AMP to 50 AMP) I have no idea about america.

It still means that even the lightest EV at 3.7kw is equal to an electric oven (heaviest) and at its worst 7x an electric oven (heavy car charger, light oven).

So...for those who CAN read... there is no problem and would be no problem charging cars overnight.in the UK.

Plus there is plenty of time to build the infrastructure needed to cope.... even if the demand for EVs expands exponentially...

If everyone suddenly had EVs, because now 1 in 30 people has one, and exponential growth means in a few days everyone has one (anyone think they can calculate the exact number? Hint: It will be less than 10 days) that would mean there is no time to build the infrastructure.

Also the infrastructure would need to be upgraded not only in domestic homes (whom currently allow 16AMP max on 1 utility breaker and an EV would need more) but also the powerlines and conversion stations them selves.

No, i am afraid you are once again misstaken.

(and moving goal posts since first you claimed everyone could have a fast-charger at home and now you are suggesting 'home charging' without specifying which ones, so I picked the currently available ones).

Mark.

[msmoby]

From the opening of the Krim most to murders of UA soldiers in capitivity we have seen who moves the goalposts and cannot accept being 'mistaken'

In the UK a domestic cooker can use up to 5Kw when cooking using the oven, grill and jobs....that is already 50 percent more that your lightest EV charger

Hence the UK is already capable of coping with overnight charging.

It is noted that Rosco is clearly unaware of the meaning of exponential and it's correct usage...once again..by yours truly.

I am guessing he is upset that my 'Brexit' predictions are becoming reality ?

[froid]

Numbers, they are difficult things. 150,000 watts is 15KW
A 240-volt system, such as we have as standard in Europe, and that you can have in the U.S can support Level 2 charging. For the number impaired that's 192,000 watts.

For the number impaired that can't read, "kilo" is the prefix for 1000 which means that 150,000 or 150 THOUSAND is actualy 150KW. 



 

[Herrie]

Numbers, they are difficult things. 150,000 watts is 15KW
A 240-volt system, such as we have as standard in Europe, and that you can have in the U.S can support Level 2 charging. For the number impaired that's 192,000 watts.

For the number impaired that can't read, "kilo" is the prefix for 1000 which means that 150,000 or 150 THOUSAND is actualy 150KW.

Yes LOL And for the people saying that Tesla's Superchargers don't use this, please see the official link from Tesla
https://teslatap.com/articles/supercharger-superguide/#max

[msmoby]

Numbers, they are difficult things. 150,000 watts is 15KW
A 240-volt system, such as we have as standard in Europe, and that you can have in the U.S can support Level 2 charging. For the number impaired that's 192,000 watts.

For the number impaired that can't read, "kilo" is the prefix for 1000 which means that 150,000 or 150 THOUSAND is actualy 150KW.

Good spot...oh the irony...

[justadude]

I haven't read the entire thread (but not fully understanding a topic has rarely stopped me from chiming in)), but, as an automotive enthusiast I am interested in this topic.

I think the big Tesla has come surprisingly far down the road of providing the practicality of a gas powered car. However, I would venture to guess that the true cost of operating an electric car is higher per mile than a comparable car. As a cheap ass, the looming cost of replacing the battery would scare me away from buying a brand new electric car (not that I'd buy a brand new car anyway).

But even for a used car, say a 5 year old economy car, I think a gas car is still cheaper than an electric car, after you consider depreciation. Also, I think if you want to go on a 400 mile drive, I think any electric car would take you at least a couple hours more than a gas powered car. You'd have to stop at least once to recharge (or possibly have your battery changed out if you have a Tesla and go to one of those places that do it).

In fact, my 2007 Mini Cooper will go 500 miles without a refill. That would require 2 recharges in a Tesla. Then again, I don't like driving 500 miles at a stretch, so the 2 hour breaks might be welcome.

You can't yet drive an electric RV either. Furthermore, the performance of a gas car doesn't degrade as the tank gets low, unlike the low battery on an EV.

Having said that, EVs are here to stay I think. They have made amazing progress in the last 10 years (but not much in the last 100 as compared to internal combustion powered cars). 

[andrewfi]

At the moment, overuse of infrastructure for charging is not a big problem. But imagine what happens when leccy cars are perhaps 50% of the national fleet.

Picture topping up with leccy on a roadside stop. How much space will be required when a large number of people replace a 2 minute splash and dash with a leisurely 40 minute recharge?

How big will peak time queues be? While there's some reduction in charging need due to home recharging, once the low hanging fruit of suburban homeowners buying electric cars is used there's going to be millions and millions of apartment dwellers, row housing dwellers, college dorm denizens to service. And what when families have 2 or 3 electric cars - what of home recharging then?

I think that, at best, leccy cars are an intermediate technology, but what is it intermediate to?

[NS1]

Read an Interesting article about electric cars last week.
I do not live in a major centre. So repairs are also a consideration.
Tesla has sold several cars here, the report says you basically have to be an
electrical engineer to work on these cars, even a good mechanic won't help you.
So if you buy one of these here and it breaks, you would have to flat deck it
12 hours for repair. I expect it will be awhile before they  become main stream
due to repairs, charging stations and pure cost.

[andrewfi]

Read an Interesting article about electric cars last week.
I do not live in a major centre. So repairs are also a consideration.
Tesla has sold several cars here, the report says you basically have to be an
electrical engineer to work on these cars, even a good mechanic won't help you.
So if you buy one of these here and it breaks, you would have to flat deck it
12 hours for repair. I expect it will be awhile before they  become main stream
due to repairs, charging stations and pure cost.

Probably not true for leccy cars from established manufacturers, but certainly true of Tesla - if you have a Tesla, you can only justify buying if one already has a backup vehicle on-hand because servicing and repairs are not readily available.

Of course, in that case, pretty much any arguments that one might make about resource savings, cost savings, and green virtue signalling, all fly out of the window.

[rosco]

Read an Interesting article about electric cars last week.
I do not live in a major centre. So repairs are also a consideration.
Tesla has sold several cars here, the report says you basically have to be an
electrical engineer to work on these cars, even a good mechanic won't help you.
So if you buy one of these here and it breaks, you would have to flat deck it
12 hours for repair. I expect it will be awhile before they  become main stream
due to repairs, charging stations and pure cost.

Yea. Stick it on the back of a flat deck diesel truck for it to be towed away and fixed before being brought back on said diesel truck!!

[andrewfi]

A huge problem for Tesla owners is the way in which Tesla controls the availability of spare parts and information about the cars. It is very hard to look after a Telsa outside of the Tesla service system and very hard to do so from within it.

[msmoby]

A huge problem for Tesla owners is the way in which Tesla controls the availability of spare parts and information about the cars. It is very hard to look after a Telsa outside of the Tesla service system and very hard to do so from within it.

The business model is vertical and those with warranties have no issues

When the car is OUT of warranty - THEN the 'fun' can begin :

Seems like if you are practical - and can use Lego - it's no big deal

IF it proves hard to maintain a used Tesla the 2nd hand market price would plummet ..*I* see no evidence of that ...

They are holding prices FAR better than Range Rovers

[Markje]

In the UK a domestic cooker can use up to 5Kw when cooking using the oven, grill and jobs....that is already 50 percent more that your lightest EV charger

Let me do this on the slow.

I am using RENAULT as an example since they offer all sizes as EV.

4kv electric EV , the ones that can be used with the oven-grill etc. (note that 5k is not 150% of 4k, but lets overlook that)

Yes moby, very popular EV.

Note the lack of windows, so if it rains, you get wet.

11KV electric vehicle


Better, but the stats reveal its just a city-hopper:
Claimed acceleration for the city-specific 0-50km/h run is a handy 4.0sec, with the more grown-up 0-100km/h sprint taking a leisurely 13.2sec. Flat biscuit is 135km/h.

33kv electric vehicle


Now we're talking, a real car. but this one uses the 33kv home charger, or super-chargers of 50kv+ along the road.

[NS1]

Here we have very few charging stations to this point.
Government has committed to putting several hundred
across the province. Rumours are it will be expensive to use.
We do not have renault here and the big players only have
Hybrid at this point. In large cities these make since.
Short driving distances with many charging stations.
In Canada distance can be great options will be less.
Also likely much more expensive.

Being a car guy I suspect I will be last one on the band wagon

[msmoby]

Markje

When you include my name ( in some sort of attempt to 'belittle' ) and post more bollox - you can be sure of a response

The first car is a TWIZY and I have driven one - ( twice ) a model fitted with the OPTIONAL windows and doors - I loved it ( Test drove one in Cheltenham )  and hired one in London



The Zoe or Nissan Leaf:  A friend at the sailing club has had two Nissan Leafs and my 'mythical' Russian Orthodox friend - Father Sergey  - has bought a right off and restored it to working order .. I have been in both the old and new models..finding them to be totally practical for 170km round trips or urban driving - if fully charged at start

Charging info ( UK)

https://pod-point.com/guides/vehicles/renault/2018/zoe-q90


I haven't driven the Renault Zoe-E sport ( the blue car - as it is a concept car ) - but HAVE driven the early Tesla EV sports car - having owned a Lotus Elise ( Bright orange ) after separating from Wife #1 and being somewhat 'silly'...   I couldn't hear the mobile phone ring above 40 MPH / 60 KM/h ... at RAF Valley - a mate of mine runs a Book a Race track for a day firm ...  I preferred the Tesla, but the expert drivers who can make those cars 4 wheel drift said the Tesla's batteries 'ruined' the handling on the limit )))

I have test driven the Tesla Model S but the monthly leasing fees were jaw dropping and my boring Vauxhall Insignia cost just over three payments   

As I said - in the UK the residuals for EVs are holding up well

IF I wasn't the type to like doing road trips and SC drives to Krasnodar or  Gelendzhik  - which might involve a long stop to recharge - we would have an EV

If I lived in a big city .... FOR SURE I'd have one

I'm still hoping Hydrogen Cell cars and filling stations might become more prevalent ... I'd have to drive to Swindon ( 35 miles) just to fill up

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/93180/hydrogen-fuel-cell-do-hydrogen-cars-have-a-future











 

[andrewfi]

Just imagine how taxes will be when we reach a tipping point for electric car uptake. Governments will start charging taxes per mile driven or tax electricity used in charging in order that they replace taxes currently levied on fuel.

At that point everybody using cost as a justification for using electricity will wake up in the morning and slap themselves for having been so gullible as to fall for a con trick.

They'll be driving around in a low range vehicle and paying the same to do so as the people in the proper cars.

[msmoby]

andrewfi - as ever - misses the point

EV cars can run on Electricity that is generated by renewables ..