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Author Topic: Electric Cars  (Read 1918 times)

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Offline Texan77

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Electric Cars
« on: February 03, 2019, 06:22:40 PM »
In the USA the batteries are made here.   https://electrek.co/2017/03/23/tesla-gigafactory-aerial-picture/ Plant is expanded every year.

As of now this plant produces more batteries for electric cars than all other plants in the world combine including China.

 Lithium batteries will be phased out soon and batteries that use more abundant materials will be used in the not so distant future. A new cutting edge capacitor is being developed that last much longer that the car and have the same weight and power storage lithium and able to charge much faster.


Lithium/cobalt battery will be history in the mid 2020's. Lithium and oil will disappear at the same time as needed fuel. One car manufacture is claiming to have this new solid state battery ready in 2020 but will just have to wait and see if it happens. Japanese is spending hugely on solid batteries to regain market share in battery business as so is Europe and the USA. These batteries should have more power density, be safer and use common materials.

China is working on getting its need for imported energy down to zero and is progressively looking at electric cars as a way of doing that. China the worlds largest oil importer is who will hurt Russia's oil market the most.
 
The sun will set on Russia if there claim to fame is raw materials. Russia days of selling oil and producing weapons are numbered.




Online B.B.

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2019, 07:15:46 PM »
The sun will set on Russia if there claim to fame is raw materials. Russia days of selling oil and producing weapons are numbered.

Wut? You mean that being a kleptocratic resource state is losing propositon in the long run?  Who knew?

Meanwhile, all the Haters have is denial of worldwide commerce, etc., because they can't let go of the Hate.  They keep doubling down on it. 

B/B
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Offline Texan77

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2019, 09:00:04 PM »
The battery Tesla makes mainly uses graphing and lithium. The sources for both elements are the USA, Mexico and Canada. There are other materials in the battery electrodes but none of them rare or quantities that are hard to buy. None of the raw material is being bought from Russia, China or any Asian countries.

http://fortune.com/2015/09/16/tesla-lithium-gigafactory-nevada/

Audi recently announced they will stop building gasoline cars by 2025. Only electric cars after that. Porch has just come out with a new electric car to try to complete with Tesla. BMW and VW are not far behind. After 2025 it might be hard to buy much of gasoline car in Europe unless it is used. China is not going to be left behind. I do not know where Europeans are going to get their batteries but the price better be cheap if there going to complete with Tesla.

This gigafactory ( 1 ) will be complete in 2020. They have the land already bought and plans being made to start gigafactory ( 2 ) as soon as this one is done.

Tesla has a sister company called Solar City. Solar City rent or sells solar panel/battery systems for houses. They expect to soon be the largest Utility in the USA with their systems powering more housing than any other power company and supplying more watts on a daily basics than any other power company in the country. Solar City uses these same batteries for their housing systems for night time power as Tesla uses in the cars.



Online andrewfi

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2019, 05:59:29 AM »
Texan77, I do not know where you get your 'information' from. Rechargeable batteries do not contain a substance called 'graphing'. The lithium used in the cells, manufactured by Panasonic and supplied to Tesla comes from all over the world. There is a plan to open a lithium mine near to the Tesla plant in Nevada but it is just that, a plan - a thing that might happen in the future. Among other sources, lithium used by Panasonic in Tesla cells comes from China, Australia, Chile.

Audi has not said they will stop producing gasoline-powered cars by 2025.

Far from expanding, SolarCity is contracting. During 2018 they closed 12 facilities in 9 states and reduced workforce by 9%.

By the way, where do you think the electricity to charge the batteries comes from? Pixie piss and unicorn shit? It comes from fossil fuels including oil. coal and natural gas.

Do you just imagine this stuff, or make it up as you go along?

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Online 2tallbill

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2019, 01:11:07 PM »
By the way, where do you think the electricity to charge the batteries comes from? Pixie
piss and unicorn shit? It comes from fossil fuels including oil. coal and natural gas.

+100  (Including Nuclear)

The only way for Europe to go entirely to electric cars is by building Hundreds and
hundreds of new power plants in each country. There is no way to replace fossil fuels
with wind, solar or pixies.

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Online msmoby

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2019, 04:26:31 AM »


+100  (Including Nuclear)

The only way for Europe to go entirely to electric cars is by building Hundreds and
hundreds of new power plants in each country. There is no way to replace fossil fuels
with wind, solar or pixies.

Don't be too quick to quote andrewfi - lest you be associated with his 'research capabilities' about stuff he doesn't understand

Over half the electricity generated in Europe was generated by renewable / nuclear sources  in 2016 ( 55%)  - proportion rising exponentially
https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/overview-of-the-electricity-production-2/assessment-4

Tex was - of course - referring to Graphite

Info re late 2016 sources of Li-ion batteries :

https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/breakdown-raw-materials-tesla-batteries-possible-bottleneck/

Russia doesn't have form for making stuff like this up.
He really did say that
Here is my Russophobia/Kremlinphobia topic

Offline Texan77

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2019, 04:05:38 AM »
In the USA we will not need new power plants and will be able to add millions of cars, trucks and busses. It is not that our power grid has so much surplus capacity at high demand time it is because our grid is little used between 10 pm and 6 am. This is a very good time to recharge cars for the following day. I do not know anything about the European grid but it would not surprise if the same condition exist.

The power plants will use far less carbon base fuels than the car using gasoline into them. So it may not be zero for not it will still be a lot less. I reading that one day the Sahara desert will be the likely future of European power. I believe It I the world most efficient source of solar power.
 
Audi had a commercial they ran during the super bowl about EV cars. In the commercial they said one third of all models will be all electric by 2025.  I did not see the one third part when I read it as it was not on the screen long.
 
Solar city has run into political problems in some states where they want to protect their power company. This is what happens when a concept is too successful. Still they sell all the batteries they can get their hands on. On the other side of the coin California is making every new house built in the state to have solar panels. California is also requiring the power company to convert to renewals by 2030. There is a growing number of congressmen and senators wanting to make the California laws to be national. I really do not think it will happen on a national scale that soon but that is where this is headed.

I do not remember the exact details but the first ferry that runs on batteries has been put into service. It is in Europe if my memory is correct. New rules on shipping is requiring them to burn a higher grade of fuel to reduce carbon. Long term there are Electricity power systems being developed for shipping. A number of private yacht are already doing this.

All the busses in US cities are being converted to electric. The Chinese are selling them to us and they are cheaper to operate than diesel. We have 100 experimental all electric 18 wheeler rigs on the road to compare cost of operation to diesel rigs. I understand they have a thousand mile range. If the cost is much less the trucking industry is likely to start to convert.

I think the world is about to get another huge wakeup call next year. The belief is we would reduce our rate of increase of carbon emissions and the rate of the ice melting would slow down. Up to now governments seem to want to consider melting ice as it is going to be a linear but the melt is exponential.  So far we have reduced the rate we are putting carbon in the air but it is not nearly enough to slow down the melt rate of the ice. I believe we are going to find that the melt rate is double what it was in 2010 again. Ice is melting from underneath and the pools of water will act as a lubricant and let ice sheets slide into the oceans at a much faster rate.

For now and for the next few years Electric cars will slowly make progress. When the car parts come down and a cheaper power storage unit is made commercial available the electric cars will cost much less than gasoline cars. One of the articles I was reading about this showed Times Square New York in 1907 with streets full of all horses and carriages. In 1917 there very few horses and all cars. Once the electric car is cheaper to buy and cost less to run no one will want to buy the gasoline model. 

Offline Steveboy

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2019, 04:48:14 AM »
Ice is melting from underneath and the pools of water will act as a lubricant and let ice sheets slide into the oceans at a much faster rate.

Absolutely brilliant!! 100 ft sea rise! Just need a big meteor strike (Some where a few thousand miles away from me) and the world really will have something interesting to talk about.. I may even decide to start watching the news again.. :laugh:
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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2019, 05:01:39 AM »
I support no government anywhere, ever, never. No institution, No religion!!

Online Markje

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2019, 08:52:50 AM »
In the USA we will not need new power plants and will be able to add millions of cars, trucks and busses. It is not that our power grid has so much surplus capacity at high demand time it is because our grid is little used between 10 pm and 6 am. This is a very good time to recharge cars for the following day. I do not know anything about the European grid but it would not surprise if the same condition exist.


I can' speak for other european countries, but in Netherlands the grid is actually more busy during the night, electricity is cheaper during nighttime. Especially dishwashers and laundry machines run in the late-evening early-morning to make maximum use of the discounted energy pricing.


Part of why a mass-usage of electric vehicles doesn' work in Europe was in-depth researched short while ago on this right-wing blog geenstijl:

(google translate it)
https://www.geenstijl.nl/5145543/feynman-en-of-feiten-klimaatakkoord-struikelt-over-badeendje/

the main point of the article is , that the energy-demand curve starts to look like a bathing duck a child would use, with the peak in the morning when everyone wakes up, a huge sag midday due to end-users solar panels delivering energy back in to the net followed by an even bigger peak-demand when everyone comes home from work and starts charging the batteries of devices and now cars.
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Online andrewfi

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2019, 01:24:10 PM »
The nighttime capacity is a tad misleading as well. Folks do not understand why leccy is cheaper at night, they think it is because less leccy is used. While that is true, it will not help users in the 'lectric car paradise that folks such as Texan77 imagine.

Here's why: Those same folks tell us that extra generating capacity can come from non-fossil fuel sources and, of course, that's simple-minded hogwash repeated by uncritical consumers of propaganda. In order to have a stable supply of electricity we have to generate stable supplies of electricity, that's called 'baseload power' and it comes from plants that have to run all day and night, every day of the year. They must burn fuel 24/7/365. Unicorn power does not work that way and, in general, there's even less unicorn power at night because Mr. Sun has gone to sleep. What does this mean? It means that as more cars (and trucks - which will take a LOT more power than cars) are charging at night that the baseload capacity will be used up and the unicorn power will not be present to supplement it.

That leads to the root of the problem: research suggests that if all car charging took place only at night, and that there were no trucks being charged, then the U.S. grid can support a maximum penetration of electric cars of about 25%. That's nowhere near enough, of course. But, it gets worse; on a local level, where the local transformers provide power to individual homes when just one or two level two charge capable cars are connected to the system the transformer becomes overloaded. It doesn't immediately break, but it fails sooner. Of course, add one or two more cars and the system just stops working. So, massive costs in terms of shortened life for local power equipment and restrictions on the use of chargers in homes.

Another point is that power companies charge less for night time leccy in order to persuade people and businesses to spread the load - as per the propaganda - but what happens as more leccy is burned at night? Power companies will raise prices toward those during the day because they have less need to encourage people to use their 'surplus' power. The real cost of using a 'leccy car will rise toward that of a gasoline powered machine because cars already cost more than comparable gasoline or diesel cars, power prices will rise, homeowners will need to install chargers, the government will replace lost gasoline taxes with taxes on car usage to recoup their losses and bingo bango, no savings in using electric vehicles. All you get is short range vehicles burning more coal than ever before and you will be wishing that you could have cleaner transportation provided by efficient liquid fuelled cars - but it will be too late!
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Online 2tallbill

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Electric Cars
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2019, 07:55:29 PM »

Don't be too quick to quote andrewfi - lest you be associated with his 'research capabilities' about stuff he doesn't understand

Over half the electricity generated in Europe was generated by renewable / nuclear sources  in 2016 ( 55%)  - proportion rising exponentially

First the proportion isn't rising exponentially. I won't go into detail explaining what
exponential growth means, anyone can look that up. 

Second
Europe uses 7,030,630,000 barrels of oil per year.
One barrel of oil produces 1,700 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of energy
So you would need enough power plants to produce 11,952,071,000,000
kWh of energy which = 11,952,071,000 megawatts = 11,952 Terawatts

The Gravelines Nuclear Power Plant in France is the largest Nuke powerplant in
the EU. In 2017 the plant produced 31.67 TWh of electric energy

11,952 divided by 32 = 373 brand new Gravelines Nuke plants

The number of wind farms and the vast tracks of land needed would need
to cover up entire countries.

Of course all of the oil that the EU uses isn't used for fuel and some of the
uses aren't easily replaceable by something else. Batteries are a poor medium
for storing energy and a lot is lost from generation, transmission all the way until
the rubber meets the road.

Even if you had to build 200 Gravelines Nuclear plants the job would be a monumental
undertaking. The new power lines that you would have to build would be an enormous
enterprise as well. Remember some countries such as Germany had vowed to stop using
nuclear energy altogether at some date in the not so distant future.
FSUW are not for entry level daters. FSUW don't do vague FSUW like a man of action so be a man of action  If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane. There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
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Offline Texan77

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2019, 09:03:05 PM »
Much of that power is wasted because of the inefficient of the gasoline engine. Oil also puts more carbon in the air than natural gas. So Natural gas is likely to be used longer than oil. It looks like France is starting a project to pave some roads with solar panels. Look at the follow video at the one minute mark. The first story in the video is a city being built in Saudi Arabia that will only use renewables. Uk planning the world largest wind farm 90 miles out in ocean 90 miles. California if it was a separate country would have the tenth largest economy in the world has passed a law that all power companies to use only fuels from renewables by 2030.

Global warming is going to start to be a real problem soon. I know some people including President Trump do not believe in this but this is one area where he is wrong. Also the carbon in the air mainly ends up being absorbed by the ocean. This is lowering the PH of the oceans. It will soon have an effect on sea life some believe it already is.

How fast oil disappears will depend on the cost of batteries and what countries do to try to stop carbon emissions. I believe the cost of batteries will drop soon and countries will see global warming is becoming a bigger problem and start to tax oil more. 18 per cent of the oil is used for asphalt roads. I do not see that ending so soon.   

Online BillyB

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2019, 10:29:48 PM »
Global warming is going to start to be a real problem soon. I know some people including President Trump do not believe in this but this is one area where he is wrong.


Everybody, including Trump believes Global Warming is happening. Everybody knows we are warming up since the last ice age due to natural causes. What is disagreed upon is if man is contributing. Even the agenda driven UN IPCC panel's report says there is a chance man is contributing little or not at all to global warming. There isn't a consensus between scientists about man made global warming. There's no reason to throw trillions of dollars away on something that may not be a problem. Scientists who do not believe in man made global warming care about their families and this planet too. Scientists were unified on what was eating away at our ozone layer and got CFCs banned. They are not in agreement on man made global warming.

Offline Texan77

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2019, 11:41:49 PM »
The nighttime capacity is a tad misleading as well. Folks do not understand why leccy is cheaper at night, they think it is because less leccy is used. While that is true, it will not help users in the 'lectric car paradise that folks such as Texan77 imagine.

Here's why: Those same folks tell us that extra generating capacity can come from non-fossil fuel sources and, of course, that's simple-minded hogwash repeated by uncritical consumers of propaganda. In order to have a stable supply of electricity we have to generate stable supplies of electricity, that's called 'baseload power' and it comes from plants that have to run all day and night, every day of the year. They must burn fuel 24/7/365. Unicorn power does not work that way and, in general, there's even less unicorn power at night because Mr. Sun has gone to sleep. What does this mean? It means that as more cars (and trucks - which will take a LOT more power than cars) are charging at night that the baseload capacity will be used up and the unicorn power will not be present to supplement it.

That leads to the root of the problem: research suggests that if all car charging took place only at night, and that there were no trucks being charged, then the U.S. grid can support a maximum penetration of electric cars of about 25%. That's nowhere near enough, of course. But, it gets worse; on a local level, where the local transformers provide power to individual homes when just one or two level two charge capable cars are connected to the system the transformer becomes overloaded. It doesn't immediately break, but it fails sooner. Of course, add one or two more cars and the system just stops working. So, massive costs in terms of shortened life for local power equipment and restrictions on the use of chargers in homes.

Another point is that power companies charge less for night time leccy in order to persuade people and businesses to spread the load - as per the propaganda - but what happens as more leccy is burned at night? Power companies will raise prices toward those during the day because they have less need to encourage people to use their 'surplus' power. The real cost of using a 'leccy car will rise toward that of a gasoline powered machine because cars already cost more than comparable gasoline or diesel cars, power prices will rise, homeowners will need to install chargers, the government will replace lost gasoline taxes with taxes on car usage to recoup their losses and bingo bango, no savings in using electric vehicles. All you get is short range vehicles burning more coal than ever before and you will be wishing that you could have cleaner transportation provided by efficient liquid fuelled cars - but it will be too late!

In the USA many electric companies including the one I have has a program called free night and week ends. If you pay 2 cents per KW more for you day time usage then you can get nights 10 PM to 6am free. So if there is not slow demand at night then why is the power willing to give me free power at night? So if I have an electric car I can charge it free if I set a timer to charge it at this time. Power companies will always keep the power cost less at night because they will want to even out the load. If they do not they will be faces with building more plants as everyone will used it during the day. It cost the power company less money to produce the electric when the load is even.

 I do not know why you enjoy creation all these problems. The car only needs 100 KW to charge if the battery is completely empty and that is for the larger extended range battery. The car uses 3 miles per KW. It is not all that much electricity. If you drive 60 miles per day it will only need about 20 KW to charge a night or about the same power as my furnace will used in two hours. My electric furnace used 10 KW per hour.  The cost of electricity here is 15 cent per KW meaning it will cost 3.00 dollars to drive the car 60 mile if I charge it during peak hours. When I use my ac unit during a summer day, my day time load will be higher than my night time load when I am charging a car in my one house. So how is tens of thousands of houses using less electricity than its day time AC load going to be a problem power company?  The restaurants business, and factories use more day time power than the cars will use at night. So even if everyone has an electric car our night time usage will be less than a hot summer day. Very few new power plants will be needed of any.

The vehicles have a range now of over two hundred miles and with the extended battery nearly 300 miles. Tesla says they could easily make a car with a range of 400 miles but the public would not yet buy it because of cost of batteries. When cost of batteries come down range will not be a problem.

Andrew that is silly. No body is planning to burn more coal. The Chinese are planning hundreds of new power plants to replace all the coal plants and be ready for electric cars. Coal mines in the USA are continue to close and no new one are opening. The market for Coal in USA is shrinking quickly. I am sure we and Chinese are not the only countries moving away from coal. It is obviously the Chinese are going to move forward and will leave stubborn Europeans in the dark ages. Some Chinese cities already will not let a new car on the road unless it is electric. If it does not work why are the Chinese doing it?

The electricity cars cost more now for the electric car than other models. But like the TV, computer and smart phone the electric car will come down in price in a few years as the technology improves  making them more attractive. Tesla is on the third generation of battery. The original battery used 11 kg of cobalt. The latest battery uses on 3.5 kg of cobalt. The battery already cost only about one third of the original battery they put in the first car. Tesla says the battery will keep coming down in price showing it will cost less than half what it is now by 2030 still using lithium. What I am contending is there is new science coming out where the battery will no longer used lithium and will cost much less in the not to distant future.  When this happens electric will be much cheaper than gasoline.