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Author Topic: Electric Cars  (Read 9505 times)

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Offline Texan77

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Electric Cars
« on: February 03, 2019, 06:22:40 PM »
In the USA the batteries are made here.   https://electrek.co/2017/03/23/tesla-gigafactory-aerial-picture/ Plant is expanded every year.

As of now this plant produces more batteries for electric cars than all other plants in the world combine including China.

 Lithium batteries will be phased out soon and batteries that use more abundant materials will be used in the not so distant future. A new cutting edge capacitor is being developed that last much longer that the car and have the same weight and power storage lithium and able to charge much faster.


Lithium/cobalt battery will be history in the mid 2020's. Lithium and oil will disappear at the same time as needed fuel. One car manufacture is claiming to have this new solid state battery ready in 2020 but will just have to wait and see if it happens. Japanese is spending hugely on solid batteries to regain market share in battery business as so is Europe and the USA. These batteries should have more power density, be safer and use common materials.

China is working on getting its need for imported energy down to zero and is progressively looking at electric cars as a way of doing that. China the worlds largest oil importer is who will hurt Russia's oil market the most.
 
The sun will set on Russia if there claim to fame is raw materials. Russia days of selling oil and producing weapons are numbered.




Online B.B.

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2019, 07:15:46 PM »
The sun will set on Russia if there claim to fame is raw materials. Russia days of selling oil and producing weapons are numbered.

Wut? You mean that being a kleptocratic resource state is losing propositon in the long run?  Who knew?

Meanwhile, all the Haters have is denial of worldwide commerce, etc., because they can't let go of the Hate.  They keep doubling down on it. 

B/B
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Offline Texan77

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2019, 09:00:04 PM »
The battery Tesla makes mainly uses graphing and lithium. The sources for both elements are the USA, Mexico and Canada. There are other materials in the battery electrodes but none of them rare or quantities that are hard to buy. None of the raw material is being bought from Russia, China or any Asian countries.

http://fortune.com/2015/09/16/tesla-lithium-gigafactory-nevada/

Audi recently announced they will stop building gasoline cars by 2025. Only electric cars after that. Porch has just come out with a new electric car to try to complete with Tesla. BMW and VW are not far behind. After 2025 it might be hard to buy much of gasoline car in Europe unless it is used. China is not going to be left behind. I do not know where Europeans are going to get their batteries but the price better be cheap if there going to complete with Tesla.

This gigafactory ( 1 ) will be complete in 2020. They have the land already bought and plans being made to start gigafactory ( 2 ) as soon as this one is done.

Tesla has a sister company called Solar City. Solar City rent or sells solar panel/battery systems for houses. They expect to soon be the largest Utility in the USA with their systems powering more housing than any other power company and supplying more watts on a daily basics than any other power company in the country. Solar City uses these same batteries for their housing systems for night time power as Tesla uses in the cars.



Online andrewfi

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2019, 05:59:29 AM »
Texan77, I do not know where you get your 'information' from. Rechargeable batteries do not contain a substance called 'graphing'. The lithium used in the cells, manufactured by Panasonic and supplied to Tesla comes from all over the world. There is a plan to open a lithium mine near to the Tesla plant in Nevada but it is just that, a plan - a thing that might happen in the future. Among other sources, lithium used by Panasonic in Tesla cells comes from China, Australia, Chile.

Audi has not said they will stop producing gasoline-powered cars by 2025.

Far from expanding, SolarCity is contracting. During 2018 they closed 12 facilities in 9 states and reduced workforce by 9%.

By the way, where do you think the electricity to charge the batteries comes from? Pixie piss and unicorn shit? It comes from fossil fuels including oil. coal and natural gas.

Do you just imagine this stuff, or make it up as you go along?

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Offline 2tallbill

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2019, 01:11:07 PM »
By the way, where do you think the electricity to charge the batteries comes from? Pixie
piss and unicorn shit? It comes from fossil fuels including oil. coal and natural gas.

+100  (Including Nuclear)

The only way for Europe to go entirely to electric cars is by building Hundreds and
hundreds of new power plants in each country. There is no way to replace fossil fuels
with wind, solar or pixies.

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2019, 04:26:31 AM »


+100  (Including Nuclear)

The only way for Europe to go entirely to electric cars is by building Hundreds and
hundreds of new power plants in each country. There is no way to replace fossil fuels
with wind, solar or pixies.

Don't be too quick to quote andrewfi - lest you be associated with his 'research capabilities' about stuff he doesn't understand

Over half the electricity generated in Europe was generated by renewable / nuclear sources  in 2016 ( 55%)  - proportion rising exponentially
https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/overview-of-the-electricity-production-2/assessment-4

Tex was - of course - referring to Graphite

Info re late 2016 sources of Li-ion batteries :

https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/breakdown-raw-materials-tesla-batteries-possible-bottleneck/


Offline Texan77

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2019, 04:05:38 AM »
In the USA we will not need new power plants and will be able to add millions of cars, trucks and busses. It is not that our power grid has so much surplus capacity at high demand time it is because our grid is little used between 10 pm and 6 am. This is a very good time to recharge cars for the following day. I do not know anything about the European grid but it would not surprise if the same condition exist.

The power plants will use far less carbon base fuels than the car using gasoline into them. So it may not be zero for not it will still be a lot less. I reading that one day the Sahara desert will be the likely future of European power. I believe It I the world most efficient source of solar power.
 
Audi had a commercial they ran during the super bowl about EV cars. In the commercial they said one third of all models will be all electric by 2025.  I did not see the one third part when I read it as it was not on the screen long.
 
Solar city has run into political problems in some states where they want to protect their power company. This is what happens when a concept is too successful. Still they sell all the batteries they can get their hands on. On the other side of the coin California is making every new house built in the state to have solar panels. California is also requiring the power company to convert to renewals by 2030. There is a growing number of congressmen and senators wanting to make the California laws to be national. I really do not think it will happen on a national scale that soon but that is where this is headed.

I do not remember the exact details but the first ferry that runs on batteries has been put into service. It is in Europe if my memory is correct. New rules on shipping is requiring them to burn a higher grade of fuel to reduce carbon. Long term there are Electricity power systems being developed for shipping. A number of private yacht are already doing this.

All the busses in US cities are being converted to electric. The Chinese are selling them to us and they are cheaper to operate than diesel. We have 100 experimental all electric 18 wheeler rigs on the road to compare cost of operation to diesel rigs. I understand they have a thousand mile range. If the cost is much less the trucking industry is likely to start to convert.

I think the world is about to get another huge wakeup call next year. The belief is we would reduce our rate of increase of carbon emissions and the rate of the ice melting would slow down. Up to now governments seem to want to consider melting ice as it is going to be a linear but the melt is exponential.  So far we have reduced the rate we are putting carbon in the air but it is not nearly enough to slow down the melt rate of the ice. I believe we are going to find that the melt rate is double what it was in 2010 again. Ice is melting from underneath and the pools of water will act as a lubricant and let ice sheets slide into the oceans at a much faster rate.

For now and for the next few years Electric cars will slowly make progress. When the car parts come down and a cheaper power storage unit is made commercial available the electric cars will cost much less than gasoline cars. One of the articles I was reading about this showed Times Square New York in 1907 with streets full of all horses and carriages. In 1917 there very few horses and all cars. Once the electric car is cheaper to buy and cost less to run no one will want to buy the gasoline model. 

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2019, 04:48:14 AM »
Ice is melting from underneath and the pools of water will act as a lubricant and let ice sheets slide into the oceans at a much faster rate.

Absolutely brilliant!! 100 ft sea rise! Just need a big meteor strike (Some where a few thousand miles away from me) and the world really will have something interesting to talk about.. I may even decide to start watching the news again.. :laugh:
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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2019, 05:01:39 AM »
I support no government anywhere, ever, never. No institution, No religion!!

Online Markje

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2019, 08:52:50 AM »
In the USA we will not need new power plants and will be able to add millions of cars, trucks and busses. It is not that our power grid has so much surplus capacity at high demand time it is because our grid is little used between 10 pm and 6 am. This is a very good time to recharge cars for the following day. I do not know anything about the European grid but it would not surprise if the same condition exist.


I can' speak for other european countries, but in Netherlands the grid is actually more busy during the night, electricity is cheaper during nighttime. Especially dishwashers and laundry machines run in the late-evening early-morning to make maximum use of the discounted energy pricing.


Part of why a mass-usage of electric vehicles doesn' work in Europe was in-depth researched short while ago on this right-wing blog geenstijl:

(google translate it)
https://www.geenstijl.nl/5145543/feynman-en-of-feiten-klimaatakkoord-struikelt-over-badeendje/

the main point of the article is , that the energy-demand curve starts to look like a bathing duck a child would use, with the peak in the morning when everyone wakes up, a huge sag midday due to end-users solar panels delivering energy back in to the net followed by an even bigger peak-demand when everyone comes home from work and starts charging the batteries of devices and now cars.
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Online andrewfi

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2019, 01:24:10 PM »
The nighttime capacity is a tad misleading as well. Folks do not understand why leccy is cheaper at night, they think it is because less leccy is used. While that is true, it will not help users in the 'lectric car paradise that folks such as Texan77 imagine.

Here's why: Those same folks tell us that extra generating capacity can come from non-fossil fuel sources and, of course, that's simple-minded hogwash repeated by uncritical consumers of propaganda. In order to have a stable supply of electricity we have to generate stable supplies of electricity, that's called 'baseload power' and it comes from plants that have to run all day and night, every day of the year. They must burn fuel 24/7/365. Unicorn power does not work that way and, in general, there's even less unicorn power at night because Mr. Sun has gone to sleep. What does this mean? It means that as more cars (and trucks - which will take a LOT more power than cars) are charging at night that the baseload capacity will be used up and the unicorn power will not be present to supplement it.

That leads to the root of the problem: research suggests that if all car charging took place only at night, and that there were no trucks being charged, then the U.S. grid can support a maximum penetration of electric cars of about 25%. That's nowhere near enough, of course. But, it gets worse; on a local level, where the local transformers provide power to individual homes when just one or two level two charge capable cars are connected to the system the transformer becomes overloaded. It doesn't immediately break, but it fails sooner. Of course, add one or two more cars and the system just stops working. So, massive costs in terms of shortened life for local power equipment and restrictions on the use of chargers in homes.

Another point is that power companies charge less for night time leccy in order to persuade people and businesses to spread the load - as per the propaganda - but what happens as more leccy is burned at night? Power companies will raise prices toward those during the day because they have less need to encourage people to use their 'surplus' power. The real cost of using a 'leccy car will rise toward that of a gasoline powered machine because cars already cost more than comparable gasoline or diesel cars, power prices will rise, homeowners will need to install chargers, the government will replace lost gasoline taxes with taxes on car usage to recoup their losses and bingo bango, no savings in using electric vehicles. All you get is short range vehicles burning more coal than ever before and you will be wishing that you could have cleaner transportation provided by efficient liquid fuelled cars - but it will be too late!
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Offline 2tallbill

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Electric Cars
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2019, 07:55:29 PM »

Don't be too quick to quote andrewfi - lest you be associated with his 'research capabilities' about stuff he doesn't understand

Over half the electricity generated in Europe was generated by renewable / nuclear sources  in 2016 ( 55%)  - proportion rising exponentially

First the proportion isn't rising exponentially. I won't go into detail explaining what
exponential growth means, anyone can look that up. 

Second
Europe uses 7,030,630,000 barrels of oil per year.
One barrel of oil produces 1,700 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of energy
So you would need enough power plants to produce 11,952,071,000,000
kWh of energy which = 11,952,071,000 megawatts = 11,952 Terawatts

The Gravelines Nuclear Power Plant in France is the largest Nuke powerplant in
the EU. In 2017 the plant produced 31.67 TWh of electric energy

11,952 divided by 32 = 373 brand new Gravelines Nuke plants

The number of wind farms and the vast tracks of land needed would need
to cover up entire countries.

Of course all of the oil that the EU uses isn't used for fuel and some of the
uses aren't easily replaceable by something else. Batteries are a poor medium
for storing energy and a lot is lost from generation, transmission all the way until
the rubber meets the road.

Even if you had to build 200 Gravelines Nuclear plants the job would be a monumental
undertaking. The new power lines that you would have to build would be an enormous
enterprise as well. Remember some countries such as Germany had vowed to stop using
nuclear energy altogether at some date in the not so distant future.
FSUW are not for entry level daters. FSUW don't do vague FSUW like a man of action so be a man of action  If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane. There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
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Offline Texan77

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2019, 09:03:05 PM »
Much of that power is wasted because of the inefficient of the gasoline engine. Oil also puts more carbon in the air than natural gas. So Natural gas is likely to be used longer than oil. It looks like France is starting a project to pave some roads with solar panels. Look at the follow video at the one minute mark. The first story in the video is a city being built in Saudi Arabia that will only use renewables. Uk planning the world largest wind farm 90 miles out in ocean 90 miles. California if it was a separate country would have the tenth largest economy in the world has passed a law that all power companies to use only fuels from renewables by 2030.

Global warming is going to start to be a real problem soon. I know some people including President Trump do not believe in this but this is one area where he is wrong. Also the carbon in the air mainly ends up being absorbed by the ocean. This is lowering the PH of the oceans. It will soon have an effect on sea life some believe it already is.

How fast oil disappears will depend on the cost of batteries and what countries do to try to stop carbon emissions. I believe the cost of batteries will drop soon and countries will see global warming is becoming a bigger problem and start to tax oil more. 18 per cent of the oil is used for asphalt roads. I do not see that ending so soon.   

Online BillyB

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2019, 10:29:48 PM »
Global warming is going to start to be a real problem soon. I know some people including President Trump do not believe in this but this is one area where he is wrong.


Everybody, including Trump believes Global Warming is happening. Everybody knows we are warming up since the last ice age due to natural causes. What is disagreed upon is if man is contributing. Even the agenda driven UN IPCC panel's report says there is a chance man is contributing little or not at all to global warming. There isn't a consensus between scientists about man made global warming. There's no reason to throw trillions of dollars away on something that may not be a problem. Scientists who do not believe in man made global warming care about their families and this planet too. Scientists were unified on what was eating away at our ozone layer and got CFCs banned. They are not in agreement on man made global warming.

Offline Texan77

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2019, 11:41:49 PM »
The nighttime capacity is a tad misleading as well. Folks do not understand why leccy is cheaper at night, they think it is because less leccy is used. While that is true, it will not help users in the 'lectric car paradise that folks such as Texan77 imagine.

Here's why: Those same folks tell us that extra generating capacity can come from non-fossil fuel sources and, of course, that's simple-minded hogwash repeated by uncritical consumers of propaganda. In order to have a stable supply of electricity we have to generate stable supplies of electricity, that's called 'baseload power' and it comes from plants that have to run all day and night, every day of the year. They must burn fuel 24/7/365. Unicorn power does not work that way and, in general, there's even less unicorn power at night because Mr. Sun has gone to sleep. What does this mean? It means that as more cars (and trucks - which will take a LOT more power than cars) are charging at night that the baseload capacity will be used up and the unicorn power will not be present to supplement it.

That leads to the root of the problem: research suggests that if all car charging took place only at night, and that there were no trucks being charged, then the U.S. grid can support a maximum penetration of electric cars of about 25%. That's nowhere near enough, of course. But, it gets worse; on a local level, where the local transformers provide power to individual homes when just one or two level two charge capable cars are connected to the system the transformer becomes overloaded. It doesn't immediately break, but it fails sooner. Of course, add one or two more cars and the system just stops working. So, massive costs in terms of shortened life for local power equipment and restrictions on the use of chargers in homes.

Another point is that power companies charge less for night time leccy in order to persuade people and businesses to spread the load - as per the propaganda - but what happens as more leccy is burned at night? Power companies will raise prices toward those during the day because they have less need to encourage people to use their 'surplus' power. The real cost of using a 'leccy car will rise toward that of a gasoline powered machine because cars already cost more than comparable gasoline or diesel cars, power prices will rise, homeowners will need to install chargers, the government will replace lost gasoline taxes with taxes on car usage to recoup their losses and bingo bango, no savings in using electric vehicles. All you get is short range vehicles burning more coal than ever before and you will be wishing that you could have cleaner transportation provided by efficient liquid fuelled cars - but it will be too late!

In the USA many electric companies including the one I have has a program called free night and week ends. If you pay 2 cents per KW more for you day time usage then you can get nights 10 PM to 6am free. So if there is not slow demand at night then why is the power willing to give me free power at night? So if I have an electric car I can charge it free if I set a timer to charge it at this time. Power companies will always keep the power cost less at night because they will want to even out the load. If they do not they will be faces with building more plants as everyone will used it during the day. It cost the power company less money to produce the electric when the load is even.

 I do not know why you enjoy creation all these problems. The car only needs 100 KW to charge if the battery is completely empty and that is for the larger extended range battery. The car uses 3 miles per KW. It is not all that much electricity. If you drive 60 miles per day it will only need about 20 KW to charge a night or about the same power as my furnace will used in two hours. My electric furnace used 10 KW per hour.  The cost of electricity here is 15 cent per KW meaning it will cost 3.00 dollars to drive the car 60 mile if I charge it during peak hours. When I use my ac unit during a summer day, my day time load will be higher than my night time load when I am charging a car in my one house. So how is tens of thousands of houses using less electricity than its day time AC load going to be a problem power company?  The restaurants business, and factories use more day time power than the cars will use at night. So even if everyone has an electric car our night time usage will be less than a hot summer day. Very few new power plants will be needed of any.

The vehicles have a range now of over two hundred miles and with the extended battery nearly 300 miles. Tesla says they could easily make a car with a range of 400 miles but the public would not yet buy it because of cost of batteries. When cost of batteries come down range will not be a problem.

Andrew that is silly. No body is planning to burn more coal. The Chinese are planning hundreds of new power plants to replace all the coal plants and be ready for electric cars. Coal mines in the USA are continue to close and no new one are opening. The market for Coal in USA is shrinking quickly. I am sure we and Chinese are not the only countries moving away from coal. It is obviously the Chinese are going to move forward and will leave stubborn Europeans in the dark ages. Some Chinese cities already will not let a new car on the road unless it is electric. If it does not work why are the Chinese doing it?

The electricity cars cost more now for the electric car than other models. But like the TV, computer and smart phone the electric car will come down in price in a few years as the technology improves  making them more attractive. Tesla is on the third generation of battery. The original battery used 11 kg of cobalt. The latest battery uses on 3.5 kg of cobalt. The battery already cost only about one third of the original battery they put in the first car. Tesla says the battery will keep coming down in price showing it will cost less than half what it is now by 2030 still using lithium. What I am contending is there is new science coming out where the battery will no longer used lithium and will cost much less in the not to distant future.  When this happens electric will be much cheaper than gasoline.

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2019, 12:11:37 AM »
What I am contending is there is new science coming out where the battery will no longer used lithium and will cost much less in the not to distant future.  When this happens electric will be much cheaper than gasoline.

Gasoline is already overpriced. If electric cars get cheaper to buy and operate, the price of oil will go down to make sure electric doesn't take over. The government makes a lot of money taxing gasoline and much of that tax fixes and builds roads. If electric cars become popular, the government is going to want tax it big. The cost to use electric cars will skyrocket. The government is currently giving electric car users a free pass now to promote the technology. Most people don't want the technology even with the government tax breaks and credits. The free market will decide and the free market thinks gas powered cars is still king. Gas powered cars isn't going away anytime soon.

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2019, 12:48:00 AM »
Global warming is going to start to be a real problem soon. I know some people including President Trump do not believe in this but this is one area where he is wrong.


Everybody, including Trump believes Global Warming is happening. Everybody knows we are warming up since the last ice age due to natural causes. What is disagreed upon is if man is contributing. Even the agenda driven UN IPCC panel's report says there is a chance man is contributing little or not at all to global warming. There isn't a consensus between scientists about man made global warming. There's no reason to throw trillions of dollars away on something that may not be a problem. Scientists who do not believe in man made global warming care about their families and this planet too. Scientists were unified on what was eating away at our ozone layer and got CFCs banned. They are not in agreement on man made global warming.

We will all be dead while they are trying to decide. How could we possible be dumping 58 million barrels of oil into the air everyday and not make a different. But just in case how do you explain the rise in co2 in ocean water lower in the PH of the ocean causing carbonic acid to form in ocean.  Ice bubbles show rise in co2 in air since the world started using oil. It is for sure changing the chemistry of the air we breath. Some are saying it is not making a different in the temperature. It does not sound very reasonable to me. If you look at the Paris accords it seem most countries agree that it is having a negative on the earth. I think in the early 2020's you will see a change in attitude where we become more serious about the CO2 content of the air we breathe and more people will believe it is effecting ice melt.

For a long time some scientists believe cigarettes were not harmful. In the mean time millions of people died. When we stop putting carbon in the air  many scientist believe the planet will continue to rise in Temperature for a long time to come maybe even for another hundred years until we reach a new equalization point. We may already have killed of most of the Human population we just do not know about it yet. Most scientists think we are not there yet but they do not really know neither. Everyone is guessing and if we get it wrong the Human population will lose billions of people. 

Yea I just watch a video where the scientist working for the oil companies think the developing world will use more oil than the developed nations cut and this 58 million barrels of daily use will rise to 80 million barrels of oil a day by 2040. If that is what happens heaven help your children.  They may need to move to the one of the nice warm sunny beaches of northern Russia.

Offline Texan77

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2019, 01:16:58 AM »
What I am contending is there is new science coming out where the battery will no longer used lithium and will cost much less in the not to distant future.  When this happens electric will be much cheaper than gasoline.

Gasoline is already overpriced. If electric cars get cheaper to buy and operate, the price of oil will go down to make sure electric doesn't take over. The government makes a lot of money taxing gasoline and much of that tax fixes and builds roads. If electric cars become popular, the government is going to want tax it big. The cost to use electric cars will skyrocket. The government is currently giving electric car users a free pass now to promote the technology. Most people don't want the technology even with the government tax breaks and credits. The free market will decide and the free market thinks gas powered cars is still king. Gas powered cars isn't going away anytime soon.

Most people at one time did not want a cell phone neither. Just like cellphone when they went from a big box weighting ten pounds to a couple of ounces people started to wanting them. The horse was king in 1906 and in 1917 no one was using them in the cities any longer.  Look under the hood of a gas car and see all those parts.  Then look at an electric car and see how simple it is. Auto mechanics will be another job that will not be much of a need for. The car is so simple. At this point the electric cars cost too much. The tax credit helped but it still was not enough. There was not enough recharge stations then. That is also changing where you can top your electric car off and make trips going from charging station to charging station across the country. People are not used to the electric car yet. Yes there will be taxes on electric car one day but it will not be more than gasoline.

I bet the Dems get back into office in 2020 and they will start making it seriously more difficult to drive gasoline after 2024. They will out law coal all together and not let anyone used in the country.

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2019, 07:43:34 AM »
The biggest problem also overlooked when dealing with electric cars, is the byproducts of oil.

plastic , tar and tarmac. All of those will become "primary" product if oil is no longer used for energy/propulsion and even more expensive.
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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2019, 10:02:25 AM »
We will all be dead while they are trying to decide. How could we possible be dumping 58 million barrels of oil into the air everyday and not make a different. But just in case how do you explain the rise in co2 in ocean water lower in the PH of the ocean causing carbonic acid to form in ocean.  Ice bubbles show rise in co2 in air since the world started using oil. It is for sure changing the chemistry of the air we breath. Some are saying it is not making a different in the temperature. It does not sound very reasonable to me.

Whoever told you that we'll be dead based on our current activities is telling you BS. There's nothing man can do that Mother Nature can do a 100 times better. There was a time on Earth volcanoes were active and CO2 filled the atmosphere. Super volcano Yellowstone exploded and killed life up to 1500(2400 KM) miles away. Created so much pollution in the air that Earth was in total darkness for 10 years. Oceans have risen over 400 ft since the last ice age. A few scientists are worried it will rise a few feet?

If you look at the Paris accords it seem most countries agree that it is having a negative on the earth. I think in the early 2020's you will see a change in attitude where we become more serious about the CO2 content of the air we breathe and more people will believe it is effecting ice melt.


Most countries have an interest in beating their main economic competitor. I live in a very liberal state of Washington where most people and the state government believes in man made global warming. They just announced they will end emissions testing on fossil fuel cars since they burn much cleaner than ever before.

For a long time some scientists believe cigarettes were not harmful. In the mean time millions of people died. When we stop putting carbon in the air  many scientist believe the planet will continue to rise in Temperature for a long time to come maybe even for another hundred years until we reach a new equalization point. We may already have killed of most of the Human population we just do not know about it yet. Most scientists think we are not there yet but they do not really know neither. Everyone is guessing and if we get it wrong the Human population will lose billions of people. 


Are those the same cigarette scientists that believe all the batteries needed for electric cars aren't very harmful in their creation and disposal? Some people believe population control in the form of abortion is good for the planet so any population control would be a good thing.

daily use will rise to 80 million barrels of oil a day by 2040. If that is what happens heaven help your children.  They may need to move to the one of the nice warm sunny beaches of northern Russia.

We've used more oil today than our fathers and grandfathers and life is easier and more comfortable. Warm weather is good. Try living in snow.

Most people at one time did not want a cell phone neither. Just like cellphone when they went from a big box weighting ten pounds to a couple of ounces people started to wanting them. The horse was king in 1906 and in 1917 no one was using them in the cities any longer.  Look under the hood of a gas car and see all those parts.  Then look at an electric car and see how simple it is.


The free market will decide which products are king. The electric car hasn't sold it's benefits to the public and there's a reason for that. Benefits aren't so great.

I bet the Dems get back into office in 2020 and they will start making it seriously more difficult to drive gasoline after 2024. They will out law coal all together and not let anyone used in the country.


The House represents he people and Senate represents the States. Highly unlikely the Senate will agree to any changes that damages the economy. The Senate sent a letter to Bill Clinton they will reject the Kyoto Treaty 97-0. Don't expect the Senate to cooperate with the House.


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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2019, 12:11:38 PM »
A point missed by many, if not most, people who see no harm in a continuation of activity as we have been going on miss an important point.

Sensible climate control measures, typically co2 emission control or fuel consumption control have the effect of increasing efficiency by reducing waste. That's a very good thing. We use less in the way of energy and raw materials and so have a handle on resource costs.

So, even if anthropogenic climate change is not real (and we have no way to know one way or another) acting as though it is real has a beneficial effect upon the global economy as a whole.

If anthropogenic climate change is real then acting to reduce its effects is probably very important in order to minimise the effects of a rapidly changing global climate.

This means that whatever we believe about anthropogenic climate change, the human race benefits from acting as though it is.

The electric car thing is a charade though. The cynic in me believes that we are being pushed in this direction because oil is running short, that we actually passed peak conventional oil production some 10 years ago and that we need to move the balance of energy use away from liquid fuels.

The benefit of electric cars is that they can run on any fuel that can be turned into electricity.

We might see a large increase in nuclear and coal generation over the next couple of decades. A lot of that increase will serve to replace gasoline in our transportation.
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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2019, 01:07:34 PM »
So, even if anthropogenic climate change is not real (and we have no way to know one way or another) acting as though it is real has a beneficial effect upon the global economy as a whole.


People, companies, and governments are all about benefits when it comes to money. If there is a benefit to fight man made global warming, why do scientists and governments need to sell it to us? Nobody but a few are buying that BS. As of now governments are giving tax breaks to companies to get into green energy and tax credits to those who buy clean energy. Sounds like they're spending money instead of using it in better ways that make money for the economy.

If Texan77 gets his wish and government forces everybody into an electric car eliminating the free market on this product, then the government wouldn't need to give tax breaks to companies producing electric cars because people don't have a choice and are forced to buy them. They companies will then charge the consumer more because they aren't getting tax breaks. Government wouldn't need to offer consumers tax credits to lure them to buy an electric car because they are force to buy one. Consumers will now pay more for their electric car. Since drivers of fossil fuels were paying all the road taxes and gasoline won't exist anymore, the government will now force drivers of electric cars to pay all the road taxes adding the to the cost of owning and operating one. Just think of the cost of upgrade the electric grid for an entire country from every wire to and in a house since people are force to use much more electricity.

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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2019, 03:10:13 AM »


First the proportion isn't rising exponentially. I won't go into detail explaining what
exponential growth means, anyone can look that up. 

anyone but you, it seems ((

You might want want to check the meaning of the word - exponential AND stats for - say - the UK ...

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/06/uk-renewable-energy-capacity-surpasses-fossil-fuels-for-first-time


"In the past five years, the amount of renewable capacity has tripled while fossil fuels’ has fallen by one-third, as power stations reached the end of their life or became uneconomic.

The result is that between July and September, the capacity of wind, solar, biomass and hydropower reached 41.9 gigawatts, exceeding the 41.2GW capacity of coal, gas and oil-fired power plants."

Second
Europe uses 7,030,630,000 barrels of oil per year.
One barrel of oil produces 1,700 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of energy
So you would need enough power plants to produce 11,952,071,000,000
kWh of energy which = 11,952,071,000 megawatts = 11,952 Terawatts

The Gravelines Nuclear Power Plant in France is the largest Nuke powerplant in
the EU. In 2017 the plant produced 31.67 TWh of electric energy

11,952 divided by 32 = 373 brand new Gravelines Nuke plants

The number of wind farms and the vast tracks of land needed would need
to cover up entire countries.

Of course all of the oil that the EU uses isn't used for fuel and some of the
uses aren't easily replaceable by something else. Batteries are a poor medium
for storing energy and a lot is lost from generation, transmission all the way until
the rubber meets the road.

Even if you had to build 200 Gravelines Nuclear plants the job would be a monumental
undertaking. The new power lines that you would have to build would be an enormous
enterprise as well. Remember some countries such as Germany had vowed to stop using
nuclear energy altogether at some date in the not so distant future.
[/quote]

Beel, you seem to be misinterpreting the contribution of renewables ....   My link clearly shows that renewables surpassed tha generated by coal and gas, already ...

I'm a 'fan' of nuclear - being a realist - as the power generated by many renewables is variable


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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2019, 11:22:08 AM »
The bottom line is this when it comes to climate changes and CO2 emissions ..

The planet is still going to be here in 2 billion years time.. I very much doubt humans will be, so all those petrol cars, gas stations, nuclear power stations , coal mines, coal fired powered stations , 5 billion plastic bags 100000 homeless people will just be a flea on the earths surface that it will shake off..

After 50 million years of Plate tectonics , mega volcanic activity several major meteor strikes , several Ice ages, continental shelf movement , land masses sinking and land masses rising, solar storms , solar heatwaves and much much more that has been hitting the planet for the last 4 billion years , do you really think a  few stupid electric cars is going to save the bloody planet.. :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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Re: Electric Cars
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2019, 07:05:56 PM »
I heard that the magnetic pole has shifted.   ??? :-\
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