The World's #1 Russian, Ukrainian & Eastern European Discussion & Information Forum - RUA!

This Is the Premier Discussion Forum on the Net for Information and Discussion about Russia, Ukraine, Eastern Europe and the Former Soviet Union. Discuss Culture, Politics, Travelling, Language, International Relationships and More. Chat with Travellers, Locals, Residents and Expats. Ask and Answer Questions about Travel, Culture, Relationships, Applying for Visas, Translators, Interpreters, and More. Give Advice, Read Trip Reports, Share Experiences and Make Friends.

Author Topic: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia  (Read 3688 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline BillyB

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 717
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 10-20
Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2019, 09:05:25 AM »
So prove who brought shit into the house and the family will support the punishment. Simple stuff.


You, I, and billions of other normal people in the world will never get to see evidence like the one you ask for. This is the second time you're asking for it. Your elected officials with top secret security clearances get to see it. You may not trust some of them but some of them you could trust. Are they all unified with the evidence they reviewed? I know American officials are. Even Trump who's skeptical of our own intelligence agencies punished Russia after what he seen. Every one of UK's allies agree too. If you don't believe a unified mass on this issue, then you have trust issues and you will never be convinced Putin is capable of ordering the assassinations of ex spies by way of means very few people have access to.

My belief is Putin is modernizing his military. He wants to discourage people from becoming traitors by assassinating traitors and show his spies he will take care of them should a Western nation arrest them. These recent events are more than just events. They're statements made by Putin.


The suspected U.S spy, Whelan has been given consular access by Russian authorities. The guy is getting cloth of gold treatment. :)


Not sure about the gold treatment. Read an article he's currently in Russia's toughest prison. They strip prisoners clothes and put them in solitary for awhile before giving them their clothes back. Prison guards don't let prisoners talk to visitors or attorneys unless speaking in Russian. Whelen speaks very little Russian.

Also read an ex CIA agent saying he's not spying for America. Spies are given a background of being a diplomat which gives them diplomatic immunity and a level of protection. If he were working for America, it would've been stupid sending him in without giving him protection. If a nation doesn't protect their spies, people would be less inclined to work as a spy.

Whelen had a VK account and announce prior to his visit that he was going to Russia. He had friends from Russia on that account. Can't they go in and check his messages to see if he had planned on meeting somebody to receive secret info? What about the guy who supposedly gave him that info? Where is he? What's his name? Is he in jail? Or is he working for the FSB and they set Whelen up with a tempting offer through VK and Whelen, on his own, took the bait?


Online rosco

  • Supporting Member
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3533
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 10-20
Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2019, 10:07:13 AM »
So prove who brought shit into the house and the family will support the punishment. Simple stuff.


You, I, and billions of other normal people in the world will never get to see evidence like the one you ask for. This is the second time you're asking for it. Your elected officials with top secret security clearances get to see it. You may not trust some of them but some of them you could trust. Are they all unified with the evidence they reviewed? I know American officials are. Even Trump who's skeptical of our own intelligence agencies punished Russia after what he seen. Every one of UK's allies agree too. If you don't believe a unified mass on this issue, then you have trust issues and you will never be convinced Putin is capable of ordering the assassinations of ex spies by way of means very few people have access to.

My belief is Putin is modernizing his military. He wants to discourage people from becoming traitors by assassinating traitors and show his spies he will take care of them should a Western nation arrest them. These recent events are more than just events. They're statements made by Putin.


The suspected U.S spy, Whelan has been given consular access by Russian authorities. The guy is getting cloth of gold treatment. :)


Not sure about the gold treatment. Read an article he's currently in Russia's toughest prison. They strip prisoners clothes and put them in solitary for awhile before giving them their clothes back. Prison guards don't let prisoners talk to visitors or attorneys unless speaking in Russian. Whelen speaks very little Russian.

Also read an ex CIA agent saying he's not spying for America. Spies are given a background of being a diplomat which gives them diplomatic immunity and a level of protection. If he were working for America, it would've been stupid sending him in without giving him protection. If a nation doesn't protect their spies, people would be less inclined to work as a spy.

Whelen had a VK account and announce prior to his visit that he was going to Russia. He had friends from Russia on that account. Can't they go in and check his messages to see if he had planned on meeting somebody to receive secret info? What about the guy who supposedly gave him that info? Where is he? What's his name? Is he in jail? Or is he working for the FSB and they set Whelen up with a tempting offer through VK and Whelen, on his own, took the bait?

Like I said earlier, I don't disagree with much of what you write but the fact remains, we have different opinions.

First of all, evidence can be given to support the claims it was Russia, without giving away classified information. You and I both know that and anything suggesting otherwise is bull shit. People simply can't can't make huge allegations without giving something and why believe a government who released several different versions of the story within quick succession. The finger pointing with almost instant and the UK's allies (many of whom are already hostile to Russia) were always going to back them up. That's how it works.

Secondly, I believe Putin is modernising Russia's army to protect the country. Russia like anyone else out with the clique are thrown into the aggressor basket (because they become a direct threat) for doing so whilst the western nations are always doing it to keep the peace. A great piece of propaganda for you right there! We all know that factions of governments and particularly yours, would love to see Russia fall apart. Uncle Sam would be in there like a rat up a drain pipe, divvying up the spoils as they see fit. Putin knows this and he doesn't need to guess, he's watching what you've done for decades.

If I were Putin, I'd be doing my best to keep foreign meddling and the threat of conflict out, for the sake of sovereignty. Look how much you lot pissed the bed when allegations of Russian interference in your elections came out. The world knows it can't trust the UN and in particularly the US, given its thirst for invading places for profit over humanitarian crisis. (* Lets invade the oil instead of saving millions in Rwanda)  :sick0012:

Online AvHdB

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11427
  • Country: nl
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouses Country: Ukraine, Kiev
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 20+
Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2019, 10:23:13 AM »
The world knows it can't trust the UN and in particularly the US, given its thirst for invading places for profit over humanitarian crisis. (* Lets invade the oil instead of saving millions in Rwanda)  :sick0012:

Rwanda does not have any oil reserves. Further Rwanda has been fairly stable in the last ten or so years without foreign troops or peace keepers.
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot


Online rosco

  • Supporting Member
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3533
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 10-20
Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #53 on: January 04, 2019, 10:34:41 AM »
The world knows it can't trust the UN and in particularly the US, given its thirst for invading places for profit over humanitarian crisis. (* Lets invade the oil instead of saving millions in Rwanda)  :sick0012:

Rwanda does not have any oil reserves. Further Rwanda has been fairly stable in the last ten or so years without foreign troops or peace keepers.


Yea I know. That was my point.

Online andrewfi

  • Supporting Member
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 17795
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • Articles About Almost Anything!
Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #54 on: January 04, 2019, 11:57:23 AM »
Why would anyone post on their social media accounts that they were going to have a secret meeting?

Here's the reality: The Russians caught this Whelan bloke doing something that they think was illegal with a Russian person. There's no doubt at all that this stuff happened. All that is left is to decide whether the Russian's interpretation of the affair is valid. Right now we have no way to know that it isn't and our friend Occam suggests that the Russians probably had enough information, particularly about Whelan's interlocutor, to be pretty darned sure that Whelan's activities were nefarious.

The chances are that the Russians knew ahead of time what was going on - they were in a position to arrest the guy in the room, red-handed. That suggests a decent amount of foreknowledge and that argues against Whelan's innocence; it certainly looks as though he was not some innocent caught up in matters as an innocent bystander. Whatever was going on, he was a participant.

By the way, by cloth of gold treatment, I was referring to the manner in which everything was being done correctly. The U.S ambassador went on to reassure his guy and to make sure his resolve was suitably stiffened. The Russians have allowed the U.S consular staff to seem him and the British now want to see the guy as well. Everything has been done properly.
...everything ends always well; if it’s still bad, then it’s not the end!

Offline BillyB

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 717
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 10-20
Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #55 on: January 04, 2019, 02:25:07 PM »
Rwanda does not have any oil reserves. Further Rwanda has been fairly stable in the last ten or so years without foreign troops or peace keepers.[/font][/size]

When nations rescue other nations or get involved in other nation's conflicts, it's usually done for the benefit of themselves. Nations are no different than individuals. No reason to spill the blood of your sons, daughters and fellow citizens over Rwanda. Now if Rwanda had resources that are tied to your nation's economy and the economy and your people will suffer if there's conflict in Rwanda, your nation is more likely to get involved.

Why would anyone post on their social media accounts that they were going to have a secret meeting?


Whelen announced he was going to Russia on VK but doesn't VK allow messages to go back and forth in private between users?

The chances are that the Russians knew ahead of time what was going on - they were in a position to arrest the guy in the room, red-handed. That suggests a decent amount of foreknowledge and that argues against Whelan's innocence; it certainly looks as though he was not some innocent caught up in matters as an innocent bystander. Whatever was going on, he was a participant.


That's what I'm thinking and Russia may have baited him offering him something of value. Maybe the guy was offered a souvenir and he agreed to meet his "friend" on VK in person to accept a gift. Maybe he was offered secrets and agreed to meet his "Friend" for that. That's why it's important to get into his account and see why he agreed to meet this Russian guy that has not been named yet. If he simply agreed to accept top secret info, that's enough for Russia to bust him.



Offline Omega1982

  • Member
  • Posts: 474
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouses Country: Not determined / USA
  • Status: Just Looking
  • Trips: 5-10
Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #56 on: January 04, 2019, 07:50:49 PM »
Where's Cornfed, haven't read his posts in a couple weeks. 

Online andrewfi

  • Supporting Member
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 17795
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • Articles About Almost Anything!
Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #57 on: January 05, 2019, 04:29:45 AM »
Well, Billy, that's what a court will decide. The Russians will do everything by the book, if for no other reason to contrast with the relatively lawless United States.

Given the 'going by the book' which is now Russian policy in such matters, we can be sure that they have a strong case supported by relevant evidence. It is also worth noting that the conviction rate in Russian courts is very high. They don't mess about with dodgy cases.

This reminds me of the case of the Estonian spy picked up by Russia a few years ago. The Estonians jumped through all sorts of narrative hoops and incredible claims to justify their claim that he was innocent. Of course, the guy was a professional spy - that was not actually disputed - and was caught bang to rights based upon good Russian counter intelligence and preparation.
...everything ends always well; if it’s still bad, then it’s not the end!

Online rosco

  • Supporting Member
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3533
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 10-20
Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #58 on: January 05, 2019, 06:35:22 AM »
Rwanda does not have any oil reserves. Further Rwanda has been fairly stable in the last ten or so years without foreign troops or peace keepers.[/font][/size]

When nations rescue other nations or get involved in other nation's conflicts, it's usually done for the benefit of themselves. Nations are no different than individuals. No reason to spill the blood of your sons, daughters and fellow citizens over Rwanda. Now if Rwanda had resources that are tied to your nation's economy and the economy and your people will suffer if there's conflict in Rwanda, your nation is more likely to get involved.

At least you’re being honest with us Billy. Sadly your rulers choose not to and we’re all reminded that your wars around the globe are in the name of freedom. If it really was, then conflicts like the one in Rawanda wouldn’t have resulted in millions of innocents dying through genocide. Instead we all sat back and watched, shocking.

This is why the globe doesn’t trust the US and there’s a growing degree of sympathy for countries like Russia, who we’re brought up to know as the enemy.

Offline Manny

  • Moderator
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16599
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouses Country: Russia
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 20+
Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #59 on: January 05, 2019, 07:30:59 AM »
Where's Cornfed, haven't read his posts in a couple weeks.

Same first name I think................

Offline BillyB

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 717
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 10-20
Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #60 on: January 05, 2019, 10:43:25 PM »
Well, Billy, that's what a court will decide. The Russians will do everything by the book, if for no other reason to contrast with the relatively lawless United States.


It would be beneficial for Russia to take this to the court of public opinion now. Tell everybody exactly what he did and show what evidence they have. Many tourist are of the opinion Russia may arrest any innocent tourist and thus, will visit another country instead.


At least you’re being honest with us Billy. Sadly your rulers choose not to and we’re all reminded that your wars around the globe are in the name of freedom. If it really was, then conflicts like the one in Rawanda wouldn’t have resulted in millions of innocents dying through genocide. Instead we all sat back and watched, shocking.


I watched Hotel Rwanda and I wondered why nobody helped. But I can't fault nations for not acting. There was no benefit and on a personal level, I wouldn't want my kids dying for people who wouldn't come to our rescue in a time of need.

During the American Revolution, France helped the American Colonists free themselves from British rule. Why? To hurt their competition, not because they love Americans. That's the way it was and that's the way it'll always be. People and nations are more likely to get help if they are valuable. If Rwanda someday show they are valuable to others, they are more likely to get help in a time of need.

Online andrewfi

  • Supporting Member
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 17795
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • Articles About Almost Anything!
Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #61 on: January 06, 2019, 06:29:05 AM »
Even if you are right, Billy, and I doubt it, Russian policy has been made clear - follow the rule of law, follow procedure, produce evidence and build an objective case.

That said, it has been leaked that what the guy was doing, was, over a period of years, building a network of contacts, almost certainly not people who would think of themselves as traitors to Russia and using them to gain access to information desired by his masters.

He was caught with a flash drive with a list of names of personnel at a secret organization in Russia. It would certainly seem that he was caught bang to rights, that he had been under surveillance for some time and that, most likely his contacts and associates are now likely to be rolled up. The only comment I'd add to that is this: it seems to me that his operating technique was a tad shoddy, perhaps overconfidence bought on by his opinion of the people he was dealing with being rather low -sneaky Russians as he once described the people he met on his trips to Russia.

It is worth remembering that the Butina woman being held in isolation in the United States is not accused of espionage, but of an administrative issue - the same as General Flynn was accused. The chances are that she agreed knowing that the penalty was a couple of years in prison as compared to indefinite incarceration - much the same choice as Flynn had to make.
...everything ends always well; if it’s still bad, then it’s not the end!

Online msmoby

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8990
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouses Country: Russia
  • Status: Committed
  • Trips: 20+
Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #62 on: January 06, 2019, 07:34:24 AM »
Even if you are right, Billy, and I doubt it, Russian policy has been made clear - follow the rule of law

Once again - a post causing Russians to fall about ...

'Law's' are broken with impunity at the top and the judicial system is fatally flawed..  Observe the number of cases that go to court and the state fail to convict ...


Offline BillyB

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 717
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 10-20
Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #63 on: January 06, 2019, 02:40:45 PM »
That said, it has been leaked that what the guy was doing, was, over a period of years, building a network of contacts, almost certainly not people who would think of themselves as traitors to Russia and using them to gain access to information desired by his masters.


A week has gone by and Whelen hasn't been charged with anything. Will he be jailed indefinitely without charges? So far we've had to rely on media and their sources for info,

Building up a network of contacts is basically what many of us have done. I've contacted a lot of FSU women in the past. I would like to see what was said in Whelen's VK account. Did he agree to meet a Russian for top secret info or for a simple gift such as a matryoshka doll and instead was handed a flash drive just before the FSB busted down the door? If Whelen was a professional American spy, he would know better than to obtain spy material at a hotel known for being bugged and in a place that's not easy to escape.

Day after Whelen was arrested, a Russian was arrested on US territory. He was on the run since 2017.

https://news.yahoo.com/russia-too-early-consider-exchange-152616680.html

Online AvHdB

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11427
  • Country: nl
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouses Country: Ukraine, Kiev
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 20+
Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #64 on: January 06, 2019, 03:09:00 PM »
D. Makarenko was detained (arrested) on the 29th of December by the FBI together with his entire family (wife and kids).  The Russians were notified only two days ago, but the news was in the press before that. It appears he was exporting/shipping night scope vision type products and components. Most of the charges seem more technical bank related. One report has him sending the shipments to the States!

For the good order the Northern Mariana Islands are on Western side of the Pacific Ocean and a Commonwealth under the protection of the United States.
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

Offline BillyB

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 717
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 10-20
Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #65 on: January 06, 2019, 03:25:18 PM »

The theft of night vision goggles is the most serious crime. Money can be replaced.

When I was in the Army in the early 90's, there are two things that prevent soldiers from going home after a field exercise, a lost weapon or lost night vision goggles. Everybody will be ordered to stay in the forest until the item is found. America doesn't want it's night vision technology to get into the hands of enemies.

Online andrewfi

  • Supporting Member
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 17795
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • Articles About Almost Anything!
Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #66 on: January 08, 2019, 06:33:07 AM »
Billy, you are wrong. He was charged before I wrote about it up thread. You might be getting confused by a lack of reporting in the US newd/entertainment media.

From reports in more open media it would seem that he was caught in a sting operation which would fit with the information I shared a few days ago.
...everything ends always well; if it’s still bad, then it’s not the end!

Online AvHdB

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11427
  • Country: nl
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouses Country: Ukraine, Kiev
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 20+
Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #67 on: January 08, 2019, 06:48:49 AM »
Andrew, for the good order I assume you are speaking of Mr. Whelan of Moscow.
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

Offline BillyB

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 717
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 10-20
Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #68 on: January 08, 2019, 09:39:28 AM »

Andrew my mistake, Whelen was arrested and charged with espionage. What we're lacking is exactly what he did since Russia hasn't released that info. Only speculation on what he's done and who is the Russian he met and was he arrested or not? If that Russian wasn't arrested, I suspect the Russian government set Whelen up baiting him on VK. Here's a sample of what we get in the States for news.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/03/us/russia-paul-whelan-espionage-charge/index.html

Offline BillyB

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 717
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 10-20
Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #69 on: January 09, 2019, 11:55:02 AM »
In 1986 an American was used as a pawn in the spy game and set up by Russia. Understands what Whelen is going through since story is similiar. His story below.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/01/08/i-was-traded-russian-spy-i-know-what-paul-whelan-is-going-through/?utm_term=.9ab05535fba3