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Author Topic: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia  (Read 3689 times)

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Offline Omega1982

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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2019, 01:44:21 AM »
Another nail in the coffin for the Russian bride industry. 

In one western article I read it said it was suspicious that the guy has a Russian social media account "even though he has never lived nor worked in Russia" 

I guess some people cannot fathom that the man has the vk or ok account to see Svetlana's photos in bikini from her recent trips to the Mediterranean :) 

From what I've read it doesn't seem like the guy is a spy at all.  It's true what Billy said a spy wouldn't have his background. 

Offline Omega1982

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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2019, 02:02:10 AM »
Russia is very much interested in Maria's release.  On the site of the Russian embassy in Washington there is a photo of Maria and a petition for help. 

This will definitely scare off tourists.  It's pretty clear they're looking to do an exchange. 

Around ten years ago Cuba detained an American Jew under similar circumstances.  Then under the previous administration like five years later, there was an exchange for some Cuban spies that were being held in the US. 

I wonder if this guy will have to wait several years? 

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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2019, 02:40:49 AM »

So, Occam's Razor suggests ...

that Andrewfi HAS many many assumption that were unnecessary

Gotta love the way he 'rationalises' when posting on stuff he knows no more about than any of us ....


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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2019, 06:35:30 AM »

The American who was arrested in Russia got a dishonorable discharge for larceny when he was a Sargent in the military. There's a strict vetting process before someone can work as a spy, in an intelligence agency, and trusted with secrets. I serious doubt America's intelligence agencies would trust a thief who betrayed his country to work for us again.


I would also assume that they would have stripped him of his rank and demoted him to an e-1?
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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2019, 06:44:02 AM »
Disregarding Andrew's pontifications.

There are two other realities, while I will not claim to know a Platoon of Marines, the handful that I do know would make terrible spies. Might as well ask a 12 year girl to keep a secret!

Second in both cases we are speaking of civilians, different rules are at play.
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Online andrewfi

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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2019, 06:56:24 AM »

The American who was arrested in Russia got a dishonorable discharge for larceny when he was a Sargent in the military. There's a strict vetting process before someone can work as a spy, in an intelligence agency, and trusted with secrets. I serious doubt America's intelligence agencies would trust a thief who betrayed his country to work for us again.


I would also assume that they would have stripped him of his rank and demoted him to an e-1?

And yet just a few years later this proven thief and criminal was heading up the security division of a multi-billion international business. That's very odd. Whatever we might have been told, stuff does not add up. This bloke is not the simple ex-marine helping a mate get married in Moscow - even if there is a mate and there was a wedding and it was in Moscow. One thought to bear in mind is this: not all espionage takes place at the behest of some government or other.
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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2019, 07:01:37 AM »

The American who was arrested in Russia got a dishonorable discharge for larceny when he was a Sargent in the military. There's a strict vetting process before someone can work as a spy, in an intelligence agency, and trusted with secrets. I serious doubt America's intelligence agencies would trust a thief who betrayed his country to work for us again.
I would also assume that they would have stripped him of his rank and demoted him to an e-1?

And yet just a few years later this proven thief and criminal was heading up the security division of a multi-billion international business. That's very odd. Whatever we might have been told, stuff does not add up. This bloke is not the simple ex-marine helping a mate get married in Moscow - even if there is a mate and there was a wedding and it was in Moscow. One thought to bear in mind is this: not all espionage takes place at the behest of some government or other.


Andrew, You are a funny guy. So the Marine was in Moscow to get the drawings to the newest Lada transmission?
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Online andrewfi

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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2019, 08:05:40 AM »
Don't be daft. Neither you nor I know what they guy was doing. All that we can do is use our brains to analyse what we do know. I gave a rational perspective about the case way up thread and pointed out a few things that might (definitely) were missed by other posters.

I have noted that not all espionage is carried out by governments, even if it is possible that Russia, in this case, might think the guy is a state actor rather than a commercial one. I am, of course, only speculating - I do not know that the guy is a spy and I do not know who is real employers are. The thing is that I very much doubt that the Russians would have picked up an innocent guy and that I have explained above. We also know that the guy's background is a little odd, to say the least; there's a story there.
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Offline BillyB

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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2019, 08:47:09 AM »
I would also assume that they would have stripped him of his rank and demoted him to an e-1?

Article below says that's what happened. His court martial paperwork is in there too. He also got in trouble for lying, writing bad checks and using someone elses social security number.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2019/01/02/paul-whelan-russia-larceny-michigan/2462340002/

And yet just a few years later this proven thief and criminal was heading up the security division of a multi-billion international business. That's very odd. Whatever we might have been told, stuff does not add up. This bloke is not the simple ex-marine helping a mate get married in Moscow - even if there is a mate and there was a wedding and it was in Moscow. One thought to bear in mind is this: not all espionage takes place at the behest of some government or other.

Actually he is a simple Marine in the Marine reserves. Reservists don't train much and usually support the real warriors in a war with clothes, food, fuel, and other supplies and assistance. Because he is in the reserves and rarely works for the military, he had a job in the civilian world before getting the job with the auto parts manufacturer. Most companies look at resumes and rarely dig into a military background. The guy probably got the job based on his previous employer's opinion of him, if Borg Warner even made calls to the previous employer to inquire about his capabilities and work ethic.

The guy was born in Canada to British parents. That there is a reason he may have been arrested! Actually with his background of theft and identity theft, he may have actually tried to steal Soviet memorabilia wanting souvenirs for himself. Probably got caught and Russia figures it may go ahead and make the most of it.


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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2019, 11:44:47 AM »

The American who was arrested in Russia got a dishonorable discharge for larceny when he was a Sargent in the military. There's a strict vetting process before someone can work as a spy, in an intelligence agency, and trusted with secrets. I serious doubt America's intelligence agencies would trust a thief who betrayed his country to work for us again.

You do realise a real spy usually has a fake background to protect him, no?
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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2019, 12:43:17 PM »
He has now been indicted and will appear in court at the end of February. He has a Russian lawyer.

Most unusually he has had a visit from the US ambassador to Russia. From what I have seen, civilians do not get that type of treatment. An ambassadorial visit is, apparently, more typical of a spy's treatment.
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Offline BillyB

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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2019, 01:12:48 PM »

The American who was arrested in Russia got a dishonorable discharge for larceny when he was a Sargent in the military. There's a strict vetting process before someone can work as a spy, in an intelligence agency, and trusted with secrets. I serious doubt America's intelligence agencies would trust a thief who betrayed his country to work for us again.

You do realise a real spy usually has a fake background to protect him, no?

Borg Warner has confirmed Whelen is a full time employee. They sell parts all over the world. What's in it for them if they lie on behalf of a spy unless the spy was trying to steal trade secrets for them? If he were stealing trade secrets from a Russian company for Borg Warner's benefit, Borg Warner would deny any ties to him guaranteed. You do understand the fake identities of spies aren't supposed to create collateral damage of innocent individuals and businesses should they get caught?

https://www.borgwarner.com/newsroom/press-releases/2019/01/01/statement-regarding-paul-n.-whelan

Offline BillyB

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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2019, 01:16:08 PM »
He has now been indicted and will appear in court at the end of February. He has a Russian lawyer.


Has Russia said anything about what the guy did that led them to believe he's spying? Are their recordings of conversations or video evidence? Is the transfer of classified materials involved?

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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2019, 02:23:58 PM »

The American who was arrested in Russia got a dishonorable discharge for larceny when he was a Sargent in the military. There's a strict vetting process before someone can work as a spy, in an intelligence agency, and trusted with secrets. I serious doubt America's intelligence agencies would trust a thief who betrayed his country to work for us again.

You do realise a real spy usually has a fake background to protect him, no?

Borg Warner has confirmed Whelen is a full time employee. They sell parts all over the world. What's in it for them if they lie on behalf of a spy unless the spy was trying to steal trade secrets for them? If he were stealing trade secrets from a Russian company for Borg Warner's benefit, Borg Warner would deny any ties to him guaranteed. You do understand the fake identities of spies aren't supposed to create collateral damage of innocent individuals and businesses should they get caught?

https://www.borgwarner.com/newsroom/press-releases/2019/01/01/statement-regarding-paul-n.-whelan

I understand they would vouch for him, otherwise his cover would be blown in an instant. Whats in it for them: Serving the country? Doing 'the right thing' because uncle sam convinced them?
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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2019, 02:41:34 PM »
He has now been indicted and will appear in court at the end of February. He has a Russian lawyer.


Has Russia said anything about what the guy did that led them to believe he's spying? Are their recordings of conversations or video evidence? Is the transfer of classified materials involved?

It didn’t stop the UK instantly blaming Russia without proof, for the alleged poisoning. Why should Russia be the only ones to instantly share their intel with the world?

Just a thought.

Offline BillyB

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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2019, 03:20:15 PM »
I understand they would vouch for him, otherwise his cover would be blown in an instant. Whats in it for them: Serving the country? Doing 'the right thing' because uncle sam convinced them?

So companies are willing to hurt their profit margin by participating in the spy business? Executives are willing to risk their lives participating in the spy business?

It's easier for uncle sam to create bogus passports using someone elses name and background for their spies. The spy's cover could be he works for Ford and of course if the spy is caught, Russia would know his name and background is not real and Ford can announce they don't know the guy which is the truth.

 Borg Warner has business all over the world. I doubt their loyalty is to one country and getting into the spy business is just stupid for any company to do.

It didn’t stop the UK instantly blaming Russia without proof, for the alleged poisoning. Why should Russia be the only ones to instantly share their intel with the world?

Just a thought.


UK has a recent history of people getting assassinated by way of radioactive and chemical weapons. If UK wants this behavior stopped, they need to point the finger at the right people and I believe they care about their citizens enough to get it right and they got it right. Why is anybody surprised Russia executes traitors? I would be surprised if ex KGB agent Putin didn't go after his traitors.

For over 100 years the Coca Cola formula was studied over and over and numerous attempts were made to copy it. Nobody was successful. Russia's Novichok strain is well known since a Russian scientist snuck a sample out of the country and turned it over awhile back.

The strain is easily identifiable since it's on record but to replicate the exact ingredients, the amounts used, and methods used in a lab to create Coca Cola or Novichok, I doubt even UK's finest could do it. If they can't do it, then they can't frame Russia for something they didn't do. 4 labs around the world all came to the same conclusion Russian Novichok was used.

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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2019, 03:41:31 PM »
Yet here we are today, with no proof it was Russia. Headlines were made, the people think it’s a done deal and the silence is deafening.

The UK has a very short history of a handful of individuals being attacked by chemical weapons and you tell me the best way to stop this is for us to point fingers? I’m all for that but a bit of thorough investigation and conclusive evidence would be nice.

Maybe the silence in the American spy case is about not saying anything until final investigations have finished. Sounds sensible to me. You think Putins a KGB devil, I think he’s more calculated than that. He thinks a few steps ahead, chess style but that discription won’t satisfy the mob.

Offline BillyB

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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2019, 03:49:37 PM »
a bit of thorough investigation and conclusive evidence would be nice.


Guys like you and I aren't going to see the evidence. Not in the assignation attempts in the UK or the killing of a journalist at a Saudi embassy in Turkey. We aren't important enough.

In a show of support for the UK, America punished Russia over the Novichok incident. Democrats and Republicans with high level security clearances got to review the evidence before deciding fault. They rarely agree on anything yet they all agree the evidence points to Russia.

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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2019, 04:00:27 PM »
I don’t nessearily disagree with you there but in this day and age where our governments have been caught lying or manipulating situations in order to justify future actions, I won’t blindly follow and support them. They can keep sensitive stuff classified but they need to prove it.

It’s a classic tactic these days, accuse a country of chemical warfare and claim a president is a racist rapist. No proof needed, whip up a storm, create the divide and walk off into the sunset Scot free.

Anyway, back to the arrested yank. You’ve just told me that us mortals don’t need to know the essentials. So why bash Russia and Putin?

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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2019, 04:10:09 PM »
The guy was picked up in a meeting with some Russian bloke in a bedroom in the Hotel Metropol.

That's some odd stuff right there. The Metropol was famed, back in the day, for being fully bugged. It was, as I recall, the only hotel available to foreigners in Moscow in Soviet times. The Russians say that he was caught red handed.

It is like a cliche, the guy was caught in a time warp from 40 years ago!

If as seems likely they do have the bloke bang to rights then it is likely that the Russians will be very open about everything. They're off to a good start!
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Offline BillyB

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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2019, 04:58:00 PM »
I don’t nessearily disagree with you there but in this day and age where our governments have been caught lying or manipulating situations in order to justify future actions, I won’t blindly follow and support them. They can keep sensitive stuff classified but they need to prove it.

Everybody is dishonest to some degree. There are dishonest people in every government. But we are all honest to some degree too. Most people in your and my government don't want to engage Russia in a war but want to do the right thing. If somebody brought shit into my house, they will get punished. Somebody brought shit into the UK numerous times and they need to get punished.

Anyway, back to the arrested yank. You’ve just told me that us mortals don’t need to know the essentials. So why bash Russia and Putin?

I'm not bashing Putin and Russia. I'm letting everybody know Putin is going to do what people expect him to do. I'm surprise people defend him. It's no surprise to me he's defending Russia's interest. I disagree with him on how he manages the country. There's a lot of talented people in Russia and the country could be so much more if it were ran right.

The Russians say that he was caught red handed.


Just learned he was to receive a USB flash drive that had the names of Russian spies on it. We can not expect Russia to turn over the evidence to the public, the UN or other nations for review. How about a video or voice recording of the incident since the place is thoroughly bugged?

https://en.crimerussia.com/gromkie-dela/american-who-was-arrested-for-espionage-detained-in-metropol-hotel-room-with-usb-flash-drive/



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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2019, 10:24:38 PM »


It didn’t stop the UK instantly blaming Russia without proof, for the alleged poisoning. Why should Russia be the only ones to instantly share their intel with the world?

Just a thought.

Some thought, given the movements of the two GRU operatives ...  :dh:

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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2019, 10:25:34 PM »
BTW, seem the alleged spy is a dual citizen .. American and BRITISH !

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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #48 on: January 04, 2019, 04:41:38 AM »
I don’t nessearily disagree with you there but in this day and age where our governments have been caught lying or manipulating situations in order to justify future actions, I won’t blindly follow and support them. They can keep sensitive stuff classified but they need to prove it.

Everybody is dishonest to some degree. There are dishonest people in every government. But we are all honest to some degree too. Most people in your and my government don't want to engage Russia in a war but want to do the right thing. If somebody brought shit into my house, they will get punished. Somebody brought shit into the UK numerous times and they need to get punished.

So prove who brought shit into the house and the family will support the punishment. Simple stuff.

Anyway, back to the arrested yank. You’ve just told me that us mortals don’t need to know the essentials. So why bash Russia and Putin?
I'm not bashing Putin and Russia. I'm letting everybody know Putin is going to do what people expect him to do. I'm surprise people defend him. It's no surprise to me he's defending Russia's interest. I disagree with him on how he manages the country. There's a lot of talented people in Russia and the country could be so much more if it were ran right.

I suspect your views on Russia are quite simplistic and you see it throw the American eye. Russia needs or needed a Putin through this transition and anyone weaker would been walked all over. No doubt further down the line when Russia has evolved a bit more, they'll be ready for your type of democracy and maybe even a lady President of colour. And yes I used that example to highlight the journey Russia is on and has been since the 90's. Many westerners assume Russia is on the same path, at the same point in time as the USA or the UK and also expect the same western liberalism to be the norm.

It's a shame we can't parachute Dianne Abbott or Nancy Pelosi into RU politics just to see how the public would treat them.  :ROFL:

Those with less favourable views on Putin, assume that the blokes much worse than he is. I'd place a large imaginary online bet with a stranger that he's done plenty bad in his time, particularly during his early KGB days but I do laugh when people talk about him being the devil whilst failing to do the same when we talk about Obama, Blair or Bush. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, especially the yanks. And no, a few hundred journalists and activists aren't the same as millions of innocent civilians all over the globe.

Their house, their rules so we keep out of it. Our world, your rules, so you should keep out of it. My basic take on the situation.

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Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2019, 07:22:07 AM »
The suspected U.S spy, Whelan has been given consular access by Russian authorities. The guy is getting cloth of gold treatment. :)

It turns out that the guy is a dual citizen. He holds a British passport and the British government wants a chat with him too! https://tass.ru/politika/5974816

When will the Israelites want a chat with him as well? After all, if he has two passports, might as well go for a prial. :)
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