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Author Topic: Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the USA  (Read 247 times)

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Online Confederate

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Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the USA
« on: October 21, 2018, 09:25:58 AM »
In regards to the death of the Saudi dissident journalist, I would sure like to hear any observations of LeslieD. Is he still posting?


“If Secretary Pompeo was offered to listen to the audio recording, he was smart to say no,” said Soner Cagaptay, a Turkey scholar at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. “You can’t unlisten to it, and once you listen to it, you can’t say certain things.”
One diplomat who deals with the issue said that if Pompeo had heard the audio, it would be a “total game changer” and require a much more forceful U.S. response.



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/jamal-khashoggi-trump-saudi-arabia-jared-kushner-crown-prince-mohammed-bin-salman-a8594586.html%3famp

Online BillyB

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Re: Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the USA
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2018, 05:57:22 PM »

Why is the liberal media trying to push Trump to punish Saudi Arabia for killing one it's own citizens? The liberal media wants Trump to ruin over 100 billion dollar military hardware deal and destroy American jobs. Where was the liberal media when Russia was routinely killing Russian journalists? I never read an article from them asking Obama to punish Russia severely.

Online AvHdB

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Re: Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the USA
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2018, 06:11:55 PM »
Perhaps this thread would be better placed in Area 51?

Leslie as I understand has three full times jobs, Raising a family, working in a difficult job and moderating Moby's posts. None are easy.
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot


Online Confederate

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Re: Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the USA
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2018, 06:25:24 PM »

Why is the liberal media trying to push Trump to punish Saudi Arabia for killing one it's own citizens? The liberal media wants Trump to ruin over 100 billion dollar military hardware deal and destroy American jobs. Where was the liberal media when Russia was routinely killing Russian journalists? I never read an article from them asking Obama to punish Russia severely.

Hmmmm? The Saudis operate hundreds or even thousands of Madras schools  (allegedly) teaching young children to hate Christians, Jews and Hindu’s.

Since when is selling advanced US arms seen as a job builder? We should be more careful about who we sell arms to.

There’s a double standard about human rights — the US media is always trying to lecture Russia and others about human rights but we ignore an even worse record by the Saudis. Not so sure they are great allies.

Online Confederate

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Re: Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the USA
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2018, 06:26:40 PM »
Perhaps this thread would be better placed in Area 51?

No.

Online AvHdB

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Re: Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the USA
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2018, 06:32:45 PM »

Why is the liberal media trying to push Trump to punish Saudi Arabia for killing one it's own citizens? The liberal media wants Trump to ruin over 100 billion dollar military hardware deal and destroy American jobs. Where was the liberal media when Russia was routinely killing Russian journalists? I never read an article from them asking Obama to punish Russia severely.

Hmmmm? The Saudis operate hundreds or even thousands of Madras schools teaching young children to hate Christians, Jews and Hindu’s.

Since when is selling advanced US arms seen as a job builder? We should be more careful about who we sell arms to.

There’s a double standard about human rights — the US media is always trying to lecture Russia and others about human rights but we ignore an even worse record by the Saudis. Not so sure they are great allies.

Yes, I agree so much for principles and any sort of moral high ground of the US. While I do not have enough information the only nation that seems to have some moral turpitude is Turkey who has clearly stated they are leading the investigation in defiance of Saudi Arabia.

For what it is worth most of the usual suspects have enough posts so being in Area 51 just keeps it away from those who are overtly 'curious'.
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

Online BillyB

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Re: Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the USA
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2018, 07:28:46 PM »
Since when is selling advanced US arms seen as a job builder?


You don't think jobs are created when selling products? Then who's building the arms?

While I do not have enough information the only nation that seems to have some moral turpitude is Turkey who has clearly stated they are leading the investigation in defiance of Saudi Arabia.


What we do know about Turkey is they spy on embassies in their nation, want to buy Russian military hardware, and falsely imprison Christian Americans more than Saudi Arabia does. Are they heroes by reporting to America the murder of a Saudi citizen?

 I wouldn't be surprised if Turkey would be happy to see American and Saudi ties broken up, and a cancelled 100 billion dollar deal going to Russia instead. Just a short time ago Trump hurt their economy over the false imprisonment of a US citizen.

I don't believe Turkey is innocent. If they heard the recordings of the torture that led to murder, then it's not the first time they been listening to conversations within the Saudi embassy. They have recordings of the conversations for the planning that took place before Kashoggi visited the embassy. They knew what was going to happen to him yet they didn't stop him from entering the building. Turkey isn't a hero.


Online Texan77

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Re: Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the USA
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2018, 08:18:11 PM »
I have no idea what is real here. Turkey claimed the guy was wearing an Iwatch which was on and they were able to record what happened.

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Re: Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the USA
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2018, 08:26:51 PM »
I have no idea what is real here. Turkey claimed the guy was wearing an Iwatch which was on and they were able to record what happened.

From various media sources this is what I understand as well.
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

Online BillyB

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Re: Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the USA
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2018, 09:32:57 PM »
Turkey claimed the guy was wearing an Iwatch which was on and they were able to record what happened.

That's what Turkey claims. They also claim they have a video of the torture and killing. They refused to release the video but they described events for us and experts say the events they described couldn't be recorded by the Iwatch. Turkey has bugs and cameras in the Saudi embassy. Giving away how they recorded the events will give away all bugs and cameras in all embassies within their country. They have watched and heard what went on in the embassy before the journalist visited. They knew the plan. They could've intercepted the journalist and saved his life. I believe they knew he was going to get killed and allowed it to create a rift between America and Saudi Arabia.

Online andrewfi

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Re: Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the USA
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2018, 03:53:36 AM »
It would be a surprise to me to find out that it was not commonplace for consular premises to be bugged, or at least the attempt to do so was not made. We already know that the US bugs and monitors the communications of its allies and 'adversaries'. US embassies have secured areas to protect against such monitoring activity. If bugging was not expected then such precautions would not be required.

That the Turks would not be monitoring the consular premises of Saudi Arabia in Turkey is just unbelievable.

However, given what we have been told, it is unlikely that there was prior notification of what might happen from the consul's offices. Remember that the group sent to deal with Kashoggi came direct from Saudi Arabia to Turkey. When they accosted Kashoggi the consul was dismissed from the room. He almost certainly was unaware of what was going to happen. Thus the Turkish monitors probably did not know in advance and so not much they could do.

Kashoggi would have been aware of the likelihood that he might be under some pressure to return to Saudi Arabia, given that he would have known of the policy of Saudi Arabia to get people like him back there.

The iWatch malarkey is probably, at least in part, a matter of providing early stage plausible denuability to Turkish monitors but when it became clear what had happened and the Turks formulated a strategy for the case it became irrelevant.

As noted above, several stakeholders will never see or hear recordings of events in the consular premises because doing so would limit their range of responses. Not looking at the primary source of evidence provides cover should changes in stance become necessary later on.

Those who make the facile point about this not being a US concern are unaware of the rules regarding consular activities, diplomatic immunity and other related issues. Of course there are other concerns as well.

Those who try to draw a false comparison between the events in Yemen and Turkey probably miss the nuances of the matter. There is strong distaste for Saudi activities in Yemen and for the way that the United States and others are supporting them. As I see it, the Kashoggi case is being used as a lever to alter the course of events in Yemen. At the same time, not all stakeholders share the same desired outcomes so not all statements and actions will be consistent. However, for example, if he desires to, Trump might now be able to overcome the activities of those in the United States power vertical who support the Saudi military activities in Yemen by imposing sanctions on the export of materiel as well as US military support for the Saudi army in Yemen.

This is therefore a complex case and bears some resemblance, at a strategic level, to the Skripal case in the UK. The difference, at root, being that the Kashoggi case is real and not an invention.
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Online msmoby

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Re: Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the USA
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2018, 06:54:48 AM »
We already know that the US bugs and monitors the communications of its allies and 'adversaries'.

As does Russia... for the sake of even handedness ..
https://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/23/us/spyhunter-russia-bug-us-state-department-declassified/index.html


That the Turks would not be monitoring the consular premises of Saudi Arabia in Turkey is just unbelievable.

What is unbelievable is that

1/ They'd admit to it

2/ We've not seen / heard the excerpts, yet -if they have

3/ The Saudis were so dumb as to not use counter measures


This is therefore a complex case and bears some resemblance, at a strategic level, to the Skripal case in the UK. The difference, at root, being that the Kashoggi case is real and not an invention.

What you mean the British aren't holding the Skripals against their will ?....


Online Confederate

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Re: Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the USA
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2018, 09:18:33 AM »
I’ll disagree with you about the Skripal case but otherwise a very good post.

I highly doubt if the Turks or even the Saudi counsel knew what was being planned ahead of time.

The Saudis are definitely giving the USA a black eye in Yemen and that’s why we should get out of this arms deal.

IMO Iran has a better human rights record and we shouldn’t sanction them either.

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Offline dcguyusa

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Re: Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the USA
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2018, 05:14:11 PM »
Arabs vs. Turks.  Where have you heard that before?   (:)  The more things change, the more they stay the same.   :chuckle: