Russian convicted of spying for the Brits poisoned (?) in the UK West Country ?

[rosco]

In the meantime, the England Football Team prepare for the World Cup this year in Russia....

Anything to take the heat off England getting pumped at the group stage. 

[Markje]

But, they still have the 72 virgins in the afterlife, so a destroyed world may not be a bad thing.   

1 of the 72... and the other christian nuns don't look any better...

[htrj]

Why has there been hardly any press converage of the Oligarch who was "whacked" at his London home on Sunday night?

Is that just too domestic or was he linked to Salisbury?

[andrewfi]

Why has there been hardly any press converage of the Oligarch who was "whacked" at his London home on Sunday night?

Is that just too domestic or was he linked to Salisbury?

I read about it but there was no suggestion of foul play at the time. Has that changed?
Of course, from now on anyone dying in Britain with a name such as Oleg, Ivan, or Vadim, is going to be held up as an assassination by the Russian state!

[2tallbill]

I believe, it was Mr Putin, in the pub, in Salisbury with the poison.....

I believe it was Colonel Mustard with the candlestick
in the conservatory.

[htrj]

 Colonel Mustard is more likely to confess to this.

Please jog my memory if needed but I cant remember Browns response to the Litvenyenko murder amounting to much. Sunday nights murder has virtually gone unnoticed so there is clearly some complacency regarding Russian hits on British soil. Therefore, why the fuss about Salisbury?

Is it that the use of Novochok endangered the lives of Wiltshires wider community?...... If the poor Copper handled Polonium he wouldnt be very well now, would he?.......

[andrewfi]

This Novochok stuff is pretty poor stuff if it doesn't kill any of the people it comes into contact with and can be neutralized by wiping with a baby wipe!

This level of response to deadly threat seems to be right out of the White Helmet's training manual for dealing with 'sarin gas'!

[Contrarian]

A chemical weapons attack on British soil, with a high chance of collateral casualties outside the ‘intended target’, in full view of the public.

It’s just too reduculous. If they wanted the bloke dead, he’d have disappeared or died with pin point precision.

It could have been a false flag operation. Like the Lusitania was. Ask yourself who benefits from making Russia the boogeyman?

Now with 23 Russian diplomats expelled the acrimony is building. As they hope.   


https://jamesperloff.com/2014/05/21/false-flag-at-sea/

[msmoby]

There is a delicious irony here... Certain folks on here (who don't even go to Russia and haven't a scoobie)  are in agreement with Jeremy Corbyn !

[htrj]

What was it Boris said to Lavrov at the end of last year? Britain has "abundant evidence" of Russias interference in democratic processes throughout the world............ including a certain Referendum............. I shant mention its name........... in fact no one has mentioned the "B" word since this attempted murder and its apparently disproportionate "tit for tat" response from Westminster........ How strange..........

[Wiz]

Well, it's all kicked off in the UK - with the PM stating on the evidence so far - the poison used was a Russian designed nerve agent - 'Novichok' ( New kind ?)

Did you listen to the comments and explanations of the Russian Ambassador  at the  emergency meeting (Yesterday) at the UN, of the Security Council, at the instigation of the UK?

Did you also listen to Mrs May statements at the Parliament and the questions asked by Corbyn?

If yes then, why Mrs May choose to accuse Russia and take measures against, without any credible evidence to prove her accusations and why she did not made an official request to Russia to examine the chemical findings of "Novichok" via the International organisation for Chemical Weapons ?

Anything to do with "Diversion" for her own political survival, because of Brexit ?

The UK isn't well-known for Maskirovka ( deception ) - nor bumping off / taking out opposition.... 

May I remind you of the Operation Flavius, a controversial military operation in which three members of the Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) were shot dead by the British Special Air Service (SAS) in Gibraltar on 6 March 1988.

What about the  UK air and drone strikes in Iraq and Syria?

https://dronewars.net/2017/08/30/new-foi-figures-on-uk-air-and-drone-strikes-in-iraq-and-syria/

Two sides of the coin:
UK.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43381880

Russia: https://www.rt.com/news/421126-lavrov-response-uk-skripal/

I hardly think Mrs May is 'under pressure' to blame the Kremlin...

IF Moscow had jumped in and offered help - instead of the state run media talking about traitors 'not growing old' - they'd look a LOT less 'guilty'

Really? ... How long do you think she will survive with no majority in Parliaments?

Judge and Jury....Guilty verdict without providing any credible evidence!

 

[andrewfi]

Moby, I am sure that you already knew, but chose the path less honest, that the Russian government had already offered their assistance but that the British government rejected it.

In addition, the Russian government formally requested that Britain follow its obligations under the OPCW, to which both countries are a signatory. Britain has refused to comply with those obligations rendering it impossible for Russia to be able to comply with the demands of the British government or the normal channels of the OPCW.

It seems rather odd that Britain has chosen to abrogate its treaty obligations whilst making it impossible for Russia to take any action of any kind except to respond to British provocation.

As a mere grammar school chemist, I confess myself somewhat confused as to how a compound, reputedly, so dangerous in handling that many Russian chemists died as a result of merely handling and combining the chemical constituents, so dangerous that it is supposedly 10 times as dangerous as the other bogeyman du jour, VX gas, has not successfully killed the claimed targets and is considered so innocuous that recommendations for those who may have been exposed to the compound are to merely wipe down with baby wipes and launder exposed clothing.

At the same time, one wonders, given that the constiutents of this group of nerve agents are well known in the relevant circles, why are the raw materials not controlled by the OPCW as is normal in such cases? Might it be that the case against these compounds is more myth than reality?

[msmoby]

Moby, I am sure that you already knew, but chose the path less honest, that the Russian government had already offered their assistance but that the British government rejected it.

andrewfi, the irony of your discussing honesty - based on your history for making stuff up .. really ?

As you cannot understand much Russian - I'll remind you - that the most interesting reactions came from the Kremlin owned / controlled by oligarch friendly with the Kremlin...  'traitors will not live to an old age' ...

"Russian government had already offered their assistance" - I'm quite sure you'll understand that neither of us are privy to the earliest findings of the nature of the substance used and I'm interested to note that one would expect death if coming into contact with such an agent - but if the agent is indeed a Novichok are you suggesting the UK risked killing it's own citizens ?

That sort of thing might work in not so democratic nations - but such stunts would not stay a secret in the UK. 

Neither you, nor I know in what capacity the victims were co-operating with the UK and who their help might have been 'annoying'.


Now, you might not question then harm that those not supporting the Kremlin encounter - but the evidence that harm is the end result is overwhelming.

In addition, the Russian government formally requested that Britain follow its obligations under the OPCW, to which both countries are a signatory. Britain has refused to comply with those obligations rendering it impossible for Russia to be able to comply with the demands of the British government or the normal channels of the OPCW.

As I understand it, Russia will have a sample of the poison for inspection - it does not preclude the UK taking action to prevent further  attacks on it's soil

It seems rather odd that Britain has chosen to abrogate its treaty obligations whilst making it impossible for Russia to take any action of any kind except to respond to British provocation.

'Provocation' would be involvement in encouraging, facilitating or allowing such an attack

As a mere grammar school chemist, I confess myself somewhat confused as to how a compound, reputedly, so dangerous in handling that many Russian chemists died as a result of merely handling and combining the chemical constituents, so dangerous that it is supposedly 10 times as dangerous as the other bogeyman du jour, VX gas, has not successfully killed the claimed targets and is considered so innocuous that recommendations for those who may have been exposed to the compound are to merely wipe down with baby wipes and launder exposed clothing.

At the same time, one wonders, given that the constiutents of this group of nerve agents are well known in the relevant circles, why are the raw materials not controlled by the OPCW as is normal in such cases? Might it be that the case against these compounds is more myth than reality?

This is the only point we both question

Remember, this is a country run by former KGB officers who have had 'differences' and many have met their deaths

If you can't see any correlation it's not only school boy chemistry were you lack the skills to be objective

[Manny]

Moby's mate Corbyn isn't right about much, but he is right about this.

Its stupid of the UK government to be expelling diplomats when there is no proof.

The Russophobia pedalled by the media and the government is running high at the moment, we are even blaming our weather on Russia. This is part of another agenda I am sure.

Did Russia poison the bloke? The guy was a traitor to Russia, spying for the Brits, now British and hiding out in the UK. Someone was bound to bump him off or have a go at him eventually. Its somewhat of an occupational habit for traitorous spies.

The thing is this: If Russia wanted him dead quietly he would be dead quietly. This sounds more like a false flag operation conducted by the west against a disposable operative that was designed to have the "hallmarks" of what the media imagines a Russian hit is or should be.

The fact the UK government is acting against treaties and without proof shows us something else is going on here.

[Halo]

Don't be silly.  A former Russian spy, viewed by Russia as a traitor, is poisoned by a nerve agent produced only in Russia, and the Russians didn't do it?

It's intended to be very public, so that other "traitors" (and that is how Skripal is viewed, not only in the Kremlin, but by the Russian public at large) think twice before "betraying" their country.

The fact these nerve agents made their way into the UK undetected, though, suggests some agency in the UK is not doing its job. 

[Manny]

How do we know the exact substance and source? Russia hasn't had a chance to investigate it as the UK wouldn't cough up a sample.

Last I read the same stuff was also UK produced at Porta Down.

It's intended to be very public, so that other "traitors" (and that is how Skripal is viewed, not only in the Kremlin, but by the Russian public at large) think twice before "betraying" their country.

That also remains a possibility. And it will likely be quite effective.

We shouldn't be hiding Russian fugitives anyway. 

[Halo]

How do we know the exact substance and source? Russia hasn't had a chance to investigate it as the UK wouldn't cough up a sample.

Last I read the same stuff was also UK produced at Porta Down.

Skripal was living a quiet life in a sleepy UK town.  He was a double agent, arrested in Russia and swapped by the US.  Russian double agents who settle in the UK have a nasty habit of dying of poisoning, usually traced to a Russian source. 

The mindset of the Russian leadership class is the mindset from which they sprung, the analytic division of the former KGB.  I have far more experience with them than anyone here, and this is nothing surprising or innovative. 

That also remains a possibility. And it will likely be quite effective.

Depends.  Most double spies are double spies for ideological reasons.

We shouldn't be hiding Russian fugitives anyway. 

He's wasn't a fugitive.  He was swapped for Russian sleeper agents, caught and arrested largely in the US.

[Contrarian]

How do we know the exact substance and source? Russia hasn't had a chance to investigate it as the UK wouldn't cough up a sample.

Last I read the same stuff was also UK produced at Porta Down.

Skripal was living a quiet life in a sleepy UK town.  He was a double agent, arrested in Russia and swapped by the US.  Russian double agents who settle in the UK have a nasty habit of dying of poisoning, usually traced to a Russian source. 

The mindset of the Russian leadership class is the mindset from which they sprung, the analytic division of the former KGB.  I have far more experience with them than anyone here, and this is nothing surprising or innovative. 

That also remains a possibility. And it will likely be quite effective.

Depends.  Most double spies are double spies for ideological reasons.

We shouldn't be hiding Russian fugitives anyway. 

He's wasn't a fugitive.  He was swapped for Russian sleeper agents, caught and arrested largely in the US.

Were you Red Sparrow?

               

[Halo]

Just a girl in love with a young man from the wrong ideological class.

Believe me, it wasn’t funny at the time. But I’m happy for the unique experiences now.

[Contrarian]

Just a girl in love with a young man from the wrong ideological class.

Believe me, it wasn’t funny at the time. But I’m happy for the unique experiences now.

   Class.

In reference to who may have done this (?)

99.99% it was false flag. Follow the money.

[Halo]

  Class.

In reference to who may have done this (?)

99.99% it was false flag. Follow the money.

No, the use of a Cold War nerve agent was intended to be very public, and to send a message. If the Russians had wanted to kill Skripal quietly, they would have.

I don’t believe money plays any role here.

[Contrarian]

  Class.

In reference to who may have done this (?)

99.99% it was false flag. Follow the money.

No, the use of a Cold War nerve agent was intended to be very public, and to send a message. If the Russians had wanted to kill Skripal quietly, they would have.

I don’t believe money plays any role here.

Because you’re missing the larger picture and focusing on (what appears to be) the obvious.

I posted a link above which takes time and patience to read the whole thing but shows clearly who would profit.

[2tallbill]

No, the use of a Cold War nerve agent was intended to be very public, and to send a message. If the Russians had wanted to kill Skripal quietly, they would have.

I don’t believe money plays any role here.

If somebody held a gun to my head and said "who dunnit?"
I would say Russia nobody else makes sense.



For those who want to read an conspiracy theory that the
daughter was the real target can follow this link. I don't
think that there is any merit in the theory.
http://www.news.com.au/world/europe/the-daughter-of-former-russian-spy-sergei-skripal-was-the-real-target-of-the-nerve-agent-attack-relative-claims/news-story/5d7bb94389d882b6a41ee4afc5cc5d01

[Contrarian]

No, the use of a Cold War nerve agent was intended to be very public, and to send a message. If the Russians had wanted to kill Skripal quietly, they would have.

I don’t believe money plays any role here.

If somebody held a gun to my head and said "who dunnit?"
I would say Russia nobody else makes sense.



For those who want to read an conspiracy theory that the
daughter was the real target can follow this link. I don't
think that there is any merit in the theory.
http://www.news.com.au/world/europe/the-daughter-of-former-russian-spy-sergei-skripal-was-the-real-target-of-the-nerve-agent-attack-relative-claims/news-story/5d7bb94389d882b6a41ee4afc5cc5d01

Truth is stranger than fiction!

And relatives are now pointing the finger at the prospective mother-in-law after it was disclosed she was a highly-ranked Russian security official.

The mum, who has not been identified, is said to have been furious that her son was marrying into the family of a man who betrayed 300 Russian agents.

[Gipsy]

  Class.

In reference to who may have done this (?)

99.99% it was false flag. Follow the money.

No, the use of a Cold War nerve agent was intended to be very public, and to send a message. If the Russians had wanted to kill Skripal quietly, they would have.

I don’t believe money plays any role here.

I feel that we all need to relax a little and take a GOOD hard look at what has happened, by look, I mean not directly at the situation, but with a very broad width..

First and foremost, trying to kill/harm anyone with a nerve agent is despicable and cowardly, and lets all hope that Skripal, his daughter, and the policeman all regain full good health in the near future.

It is fair to say that this whole fiasco has been handled badly by the UK Govt, they signed up to the OPCW but have failed to follow the guidelines, also they went very quickly to the press/media and blamed Russia without a shred of evidence, Wrong move absolutely..

The USSR was the only place that produced this class of agents, as far as is known. It was reportedly produced at НИИ Радиационной Химической и Биологической Защиты in the town of Shikhany, Saratov oblast.

However, it was stored in various FSU countries as well as Russia, countries including Ukraine, Czechoslovakia, Kazakhstan and Poland.

When Russia decided to "get rid" of its stocks of various chemical agents, all that they held (recorded quantities) were destroyed under US auspices under some agreement, I cannot say about other countries stocks, but would presume that they were also destroyed, but there is always the suspicion that there could have been some miss-calculations of recorded stocks.

One should also consider that the nerve agent is easy to copy and make, given the right lab conditions/materials, the formulae is well reported on wiki.

To go back to Skripal, he was exchanged as has been reported by others in a spy swop, but one has to ask, Was he still working as a Russian spy?
Why did he live near to one, if not the largest military training ground in the Uk, where there is also the largest contingent of the military stationed?
Why did he often visit the Russian consulate in London, and retain contacts with diplomats therefrom?
I'm not saying he was/was not, it could all have been harmless contact with former friends of course.
As someone has already pointed out, it would have been much easier and quicker to have shot him (probably certain death, whereas, now, he hopefully will survive).
Also, as someone else has also pointed out, was he, or was it his daughter who was the main target?

Then we need to look at TM and her handling of the situation, which also raises many questions.
Why didn't she stick to the rules about incidents such as this?
Why has Russia not received/been refused samples for their own tests to be carried out?
Why go so quickly against Russia in the press/media?
Is she trying to cover something up?
Is she trying to use this to unite her own MP's for future Brexit votes?
Is she hiding that she wishes the public to decide to stay in the EU for greater safety in numbers?

If Skripol was still working as a Russian spy, why would Russia remove him from the scene, or, did some other agency find out about it and do the dirty work blaming Russia of course.?

I am not saying that Russia is innocent/guilty, so don't get me wrong, I'm saying that before blaming anyone, a full "cooperated" investigation must first be completed, as per the OPCW rules, then, and only then should blame be attached.

There seems to be more questions than answers I think..

Where is the "Innocent till proven guilty", which is/was the pride of the British legal system..

Please discuss as you wish...