Not so good to be German

[Maxx]

I found this article interesting. As Johnny Carson used to say, "I didn't know that."

Why is everything so cheap in Germany?
Kai Melling
Kai Melling, studied at Saarland University
Updated Jun 8



It is one of the most persistent myths that Germans are rich. Germany is a rich country - alas, with poor inhabitants. Although our economy is the biggest in Europe, the Germans are the poorest people in Western Europe. Even the Irish and the Italians are richer than we are. It stops at Spain and Portugal.

We are taxed to death.

Wages in Germany came under severe pressure due to the labour market reforms by the Schröder administration. Wages in most G20 countries increased 2000 - 2009, but in Germany they plummeted.



Despite the strong economy, the number of impoverished Germans has been steadily increasing. Figures from a European-wide study released in 2012 show one in six people are at risk of poverty.


That is considerably more than in Germany’s neighbouring countries, the Czech Republic and France.

The figures from the German Office of National Statistics (Destatis) and Eurostat, showed 16.1 percent of Germans were at risk of falling into relative poverty, compared to 9.6 percent in the Czech Republic, 10.1 percent in the Netherlands and 14.1 percent in France.

It also suggested that relative poverty in Germany has been rising in spite of the robust economy and falling unemployment. Back in 2005, the number of people at risk of poverty was 12.2 percent. That figure had risen to 16.1 percent in 2011.

The study defined people earning less than 60 percent of the median income as at risk of poverty. By that measure a single person earning less than €980 a month and a family with two children on less than €2,058 a month were at risk of poverty in Germany.

Average (blue) and median (red) distribution of wealth per household:



Germany has the lowest rate of houseowners in Europe.

Considering the wealth per household, the German modell looks even worse than before. Now even the Spaniards overtake us.

And just to be sure, one more time the median distribution of wealth per household:



Quorans complaining that the Germans get things in return, like free health care, defense, infrastructure, school, reirement plans etc miss the point. The French enjoy the same good health as the Germans. They also enjoy the same amount of security and their infrastructure is in better shape.

The number of German pensioners working “mini-jobs” to supplement their income has risen by 60 percent from 2000 to 2012. The figures prompted warnings of an old-age poverty epidemic.

In 2000, 280,000 pensioners had the €400-a-month jobs, which are exempt from taxes and national insurance contributions. This figure has risen to around 761,000 in 2012.

And of these, 120,000 were 75 and older. A further 154,000 people of pensionable age are working in more lucrative positions – twice as many as since then end of 1999 – and 80,000 of these are working full time.

When it comes to employed over-75s, they are rarely university professors who fancy keeping up their job, rather pensioners who are delivering papers, stacking supermarket shelves and doing other unattractive jobs to subsidise their measly pension.

The average monthly pension payment is dropping. In 2000, an average person who took retirement after paying into the system for 35 years would have been set to receive €1,021 a month. By 2011, this had sunk to €953.

Retirement income is in fact further evidence how Germans get dispossessed by their own government. In this respect, Germany lags not only behind the European Union average, but also behind the OECD average. In fact, with a net replacement rate of 50%, it even lags behind Poland.

Net pension replacement rates:



Pensions - Net pension replacement rates - OECD Data

The net replacement rate is defined as the individual net pension entitlement divided by net pre-retirement earnings, taking into account personal income taxes and social security contributions paid by workers and pensioners. It measures how effectively a pension system provides a retirement income to replace earnings, the main source of income before retirement. This indicator is measured in percentage of pre-retirement earnings and can be used to determine the effectiveness of the pension system.
85.6k Views · 523 Upvotes

[Ste]

Just shows that there are lies, damn lies and statistics...

I've worked and lived in UK, Ireland, Germany, Switzerland and Denmark in the last few years (go where the work is, me!).

Of all those places I'd say, in terms of just how 'rich' people seem, Denmark was the most well-off, followed by Switzerland and Germany, UK then Ireland. Ireland is just about the most taxed place I've ever lived, the UK most debt-ridden, DE/CH more less work/life separate, but for me Denmark was the happiest/nicest/most worry free place. Boring though. Oddly enough here in Ireland despite tax/tax/tax and it being similar in feel to UK, it's not boring!

Fair to say also that in most European countries renting is normal, certainly in Germany, the UK and Ireland (still suffering with the fallout of the Celtic Tiger crash) has followed USA in creating a world of wealth and debt in owning a house. I was brought up in the 70's when a house was where you lived, not an asset who's value you gloat over and brag about.

[Maxx]

Just shows that there are lies, damn lies and statistics...

I've worked and lived in UK, Ireland, Germany, Switzerland and Denmark in the last few years (go where the work is, me!).

Of all those places I'd say, in terms of just how 'rich' people seem, Denmark was the most well-off, followed by Switzerland and Germany, UK then Ireland. Ireland is just about the most taxed place I've ever lived, the UK most debt-ridden, DE/CH more less work/life separate, but for me Denmark was the happiest/nicest/most worry free place. Boring though. Oddly enough here in Ireland despite tax/tax/tax and it being similar in feel to UK, it's not boring!

Fair to say also that in most European countries renting is normal, certainly in Germany, the UK and Ireland (still suffering with the fallout of the Celtic Tiger crash) has followed USA in creating a world of wealth and debt in owning a house. I was brought up in the 70's when a house was where you lived, not an asset who's value you gloat over and brag about.

Thanks Ste. Yesterday I was shopping in a Tbilisi mall. Lots of those micro shops there. I went to this shop to buy some clothes and they realized I only knew English went and got an interpreter. She was a 13 year old girl about to enter 8th grade. While everyone was out fetching clothes for me throughout the mall we sat out in the lobby and talked about the pluses and minuses of living in America. She told me her greatest dream was to live in America. I told her about the high prices and how people can be poor making $3000 a month in income. Super smart kid but I could tell she just didn't get it.

You know Ste when I read this article I thought of the US. So many poor people struggling to live. Yet like Germany we let in people take the welfare benefits while we deny our own. I know this is true because I have family member affected. Why isn't there pressure on Saudi Arabia and other rich Muslim counties to provide for their own?

[Ste]

Just shows that there are lies, damn lies and statistics...

I've worked and lived in UK, Ireland, Germany, Switzerland and Denmark in the last few years (go where the work is, me!).

Of all those places I'd say, in terms of just how 'rich' people seem, Denmark was the most well-off, followed by Switzerland and Germany, UK then Ireland. Ireland is just about the most taxed place I've ever lived, the UK most debt-ridden, DE/CH more less work/life separate, but for me Denmark was the happiest/nicest/most worry free place. Boring though. Oddly enough here in Ireland despite tax/tax/tax and it being similar in feel to UK, it's not boring!

Fair to say also that in most European countries renting is normal, certainly in Germany, the UK and Ireland (still suffering with the fallout of the Celtic Tiger crash) has followed USA in creating a world of wealth and debt in owning a house. I was brought up in the 70's when a house was where you lived, not an asset who's value you gloat over and brag about.

Thanks Ste. Yesterday I was shopping in a Tbilisi mall. Lots of those micro shops there. I went to this shop to buy some clothes and they realized I only knew English went and got an interpreter. She was a 13 year old girl about to enter 8th grade. While everyone was out fetching clothes for me throughout the mall we sat out in the lobby and talked about the pluses and minuses of living in America. She told me her greatest dream was to live in America. I told her about the high prices and how people can be poor making $3000 a month in income. Super smart kid but I could tell she just didn't get it.

I know what you mean, babushka whilst no Stalinist, very much preferred life under USSR, she said she had flat, health, holiday time, utilities, transport etc all free, her salary was just for food and to spend, no worries about putting aside, pension provisions, medical insurance, etc.

That's an ideal for living, but unfortunately takes no account of material desires, natural competitiveness, etc, but it's a way of life worth considering. People assume because I'm socialist I want to just share everything out equally, but it's not about that, it's about people having the same opportunities, either they succeed or fail, but they shouldn't be thrown on the scrapheap at one end or vilified at the other.

[Contrarian]

The goal of Globalists is to bring all wages down to the level of the BRICS, so if German wages have been falling and become more in line with other european nations it shouldn't be a big surprise.

The more obvious way that Germans have suffered is that they've had their national identity and cultural identity co-opted by others with an agenda to inflict guilt on Germans and to profit from it.



quote
"Although the speech was well-received by young patriots, some remarks did not go over well with the ruling class. Höcke had been bold enough to suggest that

Instead of focusing primarily on those twelve dark years of the country’s history, German youth should be allowed to develop a positive identity by remembering and honoring the achievements of Germany’s numerous composers, poets and philosophers, of which the country had produced perhaps more than any other.
Germany was the only country in the world that had decided to plant a ‘monument of shame’ in the heart of its capital, and had made the most horrible event in its history the foundation of its national identity.
The Allied fire-bombing of Dresden was a war crime comparable to the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The guilt cult, however, allowed for a portrayal of Germans as perpetrators only, preventing them from mourning their own victims.
The press reacted “with disgust and horror” — as if Höcke had denied the Holocaust (which he didn’t). Although Höcke had remained rather factual in his description of the status quo without attacking anyone in particular, vocabulary from the familiar arsenal of curses was hurled at him: “Nazi”, “right-wing extremist”, “Goebbels”, “hard right”, “populist”, “nationalist”, “national Romantic”, and so on and so forth. In an article by Amanda Taub and Max Fischer in the New York Times, his brownish-grey hair suddenly turned blonde, more or less subtly conjuring up images of the blonde Germanic beast, familiar from countless anti-German Hollywood productions and books."

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2017/01/31/bjorn-hocke-and-the-potential-return-of-sanity-in-german-politics/

[AvHdB]

The goal of Globalists is to bring all wages down to the level of the BRICS, so if German wages have been falling and become more in line with other european nations it shouldn't be a big surprise.

The more obvious way that Germans have suffered is that they've had their national identity and cultural identity co-opted by others with an agenda to inflict guilt on Germans and to profit from it.

quote
"Although the speech was well-received by young patriots, some remarks did not go over well with the ruling class. Höcke had been bold enough to suggest that

Instead of focusing primarily on those twelve dark years of the country’s history, German youth should be allowed to develop a positive identity by remembering and honoring the achievements of Germany’s numerous composers, poets and philosophers, of which the country had produced perhaps more than any other.
Germany was the only country in the world that had decided to plant a ‘monument of shame’ in the heart of its capital, and had made the most horrible event in its history the foundation of its national identity.
The Allied fire-bombing of Dresden was a war crime comparable to the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The guilt cult, however, allowed for a portrayal of Germans as perpetrators only, preventing them from mourning their own victims.
The press reacted “with disgust and horror” — as if Höcke had denied the Holocaust (which he didn’t). Although Höcke had remained rather factual in his description of the status quo without attacking anyone in particular, vocabulary from the familiar arsenal of curses was hurled at him: “Nazi”, “right-wing extremist”, “Goebbels”, “hard right”, “populist”, “nationalist”, “national Romantic”, and so on and so forth. In an article by Amanda Taub and Max Fischer in the New York Times, his brownish-grey hair suddenly turned blonde, more or less subtly conjuring up images of the blonde Germanic beast, familiar from countless anti-German Hollywood productions and books."

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2017/01/31/bjorn-hocke-and-the-potential-return-of-sanity-in-german-politics/

For a number of decades products from Germany were superior to those from the United States, Japan or China. This disparity has largely eroded in the last ten or so years, the rest of the world has caught up. The economy of Germany which largely drives the Euro zone has and is suffering. But Germans are pragmatic and realistic and they are adjusting.

On the other side from my perspective I am very much opposed to any attempt to ignore German murder, mayhem or genocide for 12 years. And with the same breath I think the attempts to whitewash Stalin are repulsive. On the other side the march of Sherman left too much civilian devastation and death.

[Slumba]

Unfortunately, due to Merkel's treason, you have to drop out the the ne'er-do-well Turks and the more recent Muslim and African arrivals. 

How well are ethnic Germans doing? They are being tossed by the wayside due to the society-destroying behavior of the new arrivals.

My understanding is that if you are the equivalent of a "Boomer" in Germany and were born in West Germany, you are doing OK. East Germans, no matter the age, did not have the same abilities to create and store wealth.  Younger Germans are also getting shafted.

[AvHdB]

Unfortunately, due to Merkel's treason, you have to drop out the the ne'er-do-well Turks and the more recent Muslim and African arrivals. 

How well are ethnic Germans doing? They are being tossed by the wayside due to the society-destroying behavior of the new arrivals.

My understanding is that if you are the equivalent of a "Boomer" in Germany and were born in West Germany, you are doing OK. East Germans, no matter the age, did not have the same abilities to create and store wealth.  Younger Germans are also getting shafted.

Curious when were you the last in Germany; East, West, South or North?

[Ste]

The goal of Globalists is to bring all wages down to the level of the BRICS, so if German wages have been falling and become more in line with other european nations it shouldn't be a big surprise.

The more obvious way that Germans have suffered is that they've had their national identity and cultural identity co-opted by others with an agenda to inflict guilt on Germans and to profit from it.

quote
"Although the speech was well-received by young patriots, some remarks did not go over well with the ruling class. Höcke had been bold enough to suggest that

Instead of focusing primarily on those twelve dark years of the country’s history, German youth should be allowed to develop a positive identity by remembering and honoring the achievements of Germany’s numerous composers, poets and philosophers, of which the country had produced perhaps more than any other.
Germany was the only country in the world that had decided to plant a ‘monument of shame’ in the heart of its capital, and had made the most horrible event in its history the foundation of its national identity.
The Allied fire-bombing of Dresden was a war crime comparable to the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The guilt cult, however, allowed for a portrayal of Germans as perpetrators only, preventing them from mourning their own victims.
The press reacted “with disgust and horror” — as if Höcke had denied the Holocaust (which he didn’t). Although Höcke had remained rather factual in his description of the status quo without attacking anyone in particular, vocabulary from the familiar arsenal of curses was hurled at him: “Nazi”, “right-wing extremist”, “Goebbels”, “hard right”, “populist”, “nationalist”, “national Romantic”, and so on and so forth. In an article by Amanda Taub and Max Fischer in the New York Times, his brownish-grey hair suddenly turned blonde, more or less subtly conjuring up images of the blonde Germanic beast, familiar from countless anti-German Hollywood productions and books."

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2017/01/31/bjorn-hocke-and-the-potential-return-of-sanity-in-german-politics/

For a number of decades products from Germany were superior to those from the United States, Japan or China. This disparity has largely eroded in the last ten or so years, the rest of the world has caught up. The economy of Germany which largely drives the Euro zone has and is suffering. But Germans are pragmatic and realistic and they are adjusting.

On the other side from my perspective I am very much opposed to any attempt to ignore German murder, mayhem or genocide for 12 years. And with the same breath I think the attempts to whitewash Stalin are repulsive. On the other side the march of Sherman left too much civilian devastation and death.

Should also mention Churchill, a monstrous war criminal.

[Slumba]

The goal of Globalists is to bring all wages down to the level of the BRICS, so if German wages have been falling and become more in line with other european nations it shouldn't be a big surprise.

The more obvious way that Germans have suffered is that they've had their national identity and cultural identity co-opted by others with an agenda to inflict guilt on Germans and to profit from it.

quote
"Although the speech was well-received by young patriots, some remarks did not go over well with the ruling class. Höcke had been bold enough to suggest that

Instead of focusing primarily on those twelve dark years of the country’s history, German youth should be allowed to develop a positive identity by remembering and honoring the achievements of Germany’s numerous composers, poets and philosophers, of which the country had produced perhaps more than any other.
Germany was the only country in the world that had decided to plant a ‘monument of shame’ in the heart of its capital, and had made the most horrible event in its history the foundation of its national identity.
The Allied fire-bombing of Dresden was a war crime comparable to the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The guilt cult, however, allowed for a portrayal of Germans as perpetrators only, preventing them from mourning their own victims.
The press reacted “with disgust and horror” — as if Höcke had denied the Holocaust (which he didn’t). Although Höcke had remained rather factual in his description of the status quo without attacking anyone in particular, vocabulary from the familiar arsenal of curses was hurled at him: “Nazi”, “right-wing extremist”, “Goebbels”, “hard right”, “populist”, “nationalist”, “national Romantic”, and so on and so forth. In an article by Amanda Taub and Max Fischer in the New York Times, his brownish-grey hair suddenly turned blonde, more or less subtly conjuring up images of the blonde Germanic beast, familiar from countless anti-German Hollywood productions and books."

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2017/01/31/bjorn-hocke-and-the-potential-return-of-sanity-in-german-politics/

For a number of decades products from Germany were superior to those from the United States, Japan or China. This disparity has largely eroded in the last ten or so years, the rest of the world has caught up. The economy of Germany which largely drives the Euro zone has and is suffering. But Germans are pragmatic and realistic and they are adjusting.

On the other side from my perspective I am very much opposed to any attempt to ignore German murder, mayhem or genocide for 12 years. And with the same breath I think the attempts to whitewash Stalin are repulsive. On the other side the march of Sherman left too much civilian devastation and death.

Should also mention Churchill, a monstrous war criminal.

When you realize that:

1. exactly zero of the perpetrators of the Dresden bombing faced a Nuremberg war trial, despite building an exact replica of the houses in Dresden and figuring out how best to ignite a firestorm among the houses (not warehouses and factories)

and

2. Julius Streicher, who never served in the military, never engaged in anything other than newspaper and book publishing during the Nazi years, and was hanged (but we are constantly told of Nazi book burnings, hmmm?)

Then you realize that Nuremberg was not justice and law, but simply politics.

[Ste]

The goal of Globalists is to bring all wages down to the level of the BRICS, so if German wages have been falling and become more in line with other european nations it shouldn't be a big surprise.

The more obvious way that Germans have suffered is that they've had their national identity and cultural identity co-opted by others with an agenda to inflict guilt on Germans and to profit from it.

quote
"Although the speech was well-received by young patriots, some remarks did not go over well with the ruling class. Höcke had been bold enough to suggest that

Instead of focusing primarily on those twelve dark years of the country’s history, German youth should be allowed to develop a positive identity by remembering and honoring the achievements of Germany’s numerous composers, poets and philosophers, of which the country had produced perhaps more than any other.
Germany was the only country in the world that had decided to plant a ‘monument of shame’ in the heart of its capital, and had made the most horrible event in its history the foundation of its national identity.
The Allied fire-bombing of Dresden was a war crime comparable to the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The guilt cult, however, allowed for a portrayal of Germans as perpetrators only, preventing them from mourning their own victims.
The press reacted “with disgust and horror” — as if Höcke had denied the Holocaust (which he didn’t). Although Höcke had remained rather factual in his description of the status quo without attacking anyone in particular, vocabulary from the familiar arsenal of curses was hurled at him: “Nazi”, “right-wing extremist”, “Goebbels”, “hard right”, “populist”, “nationalist”, “national Romantic”, and so on and so forth. In an article by Amanda Taub and Max Fischer in the New York Times, his brownish-grey hair suddenly turned blonde, more or less subtly conjuring up images of the blonde Germanic beast, familiar from countless anti-German Hollywood productions and books."

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2017/01/31/bjorn-hocke-and-the-potential-return-of-sanity-in-german-politics/

For a number of decades products from Germany were superior to those from the United States, Japan or China. This disparity has largely eroded in the last ten or so years, the rest of the world has caught up. The economy of Germany which largely drives the Euro zone has and is suffering. But Germans are pragmatic and realistic and they are adjusting.

On the other side from my perspective I am very much opposed to any attempt to ignore German murder, mayhem or genocide for 12 years. And with the same breath I think the attempts to whitewash Stalin are repulsive. On the other side the march of Sherman left too much civilian devastation and death.

Should also mention Churchill, a monstrous war criminal.

When you realize that:

1. exactly zero of the perpetrators of the Dresden bombing faced a Nuremberg war trial, despite building an exact replica of the houses in Dresden and figuring out how best to ignite a firestorm among the houses (not warehouses and factories)

and

2. Julius Streicher, who never served in the military, never engaged in anything other than newspaper and book publishing during the Nazi years, and was hanged (but we are constantly told of Nazi book burnings, hmmm?)

Then you realize that Nuremberg was not justice and law, but simply politics.

You sure about that? I've read quite a few books on the Dresden bombings and WW2 bombing in general and bombing accuracy right to the end was woeful, can't remember the stats but it was something like 80% of bombs missed the city or town completely die to port sights, weather and 'creep'. Pathfinders helped though later in the war and you could well be correct in what you say. I've been to Dresden too, saw the Frauenkirche, Semper Opern and the Palace thing...

I think Hamburg was more comprehensively firebombed in 1943, in the books I read though the consensus is that it was more luck (for the RAF, back luck for the locals) that were the main factor here.

Going back to Dresden I think whilst the RAF send over more planes, it was the USAAF that did most of the damage in the daylight raid the morning after, most refresh my memory with a quick pre-bed time Google!

[AvHdB]

Perhaps I should mention the bombing of Rotterdam, by the Nazis.

[Ste]

Perhaps I should mention the bombing of Rotterdam, by the Nazis.

And Coventry, even gave rise to a verb in German, coventrieren - to devaste by bombing.

[Slumba]

You sure about that? I've read quite a few books on the Dresden bombings and WW2 bombing in general and bombing accuracy right to the end was woeful, can't remember the stats but it was something like 80% of bombs missed the city or town completely die to port sights, weather and 'creep'. Pathfinders helped though later in the war and you could well be correct in what you say. I've been to Dresden too, saw the Frauenkirche, Semper Opern and the Palace thing...

I think Hamburg was more comprehensively firebombed in 1943, in the books I read though the consensus is that it was more luck (for the RAF, back luck for the locals) that were the main factor here.

Going back to Dresden I think whilst the RAF send over more planes, it was the USAAF that did most of the damage in the daylight raid the morning after, most refresh my memory with a quick pre-bed time Google!

This describes it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Village_(Dugway_proving_ground)

They hired emigre Germans, familiar with this kind of housing, to design and build the replicas. They even replicated the interiors, complete with typical furnishings, trying to ensure that a firestorm effect would be achieved.  Note that this was specifically a plan to bomb residential buildings, not factories.  Deliberate targeting of civilians even during wartime is what occurred in this instance.

You could make a case that FDR was a war criminal IMHO: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_bombardment_and_international_law#International_law_up_to_1945

[rw_recruiter]

The atrocities from the Russian side were some of the worst. Forcing German troops to dance like Cossacks is beyond unforgivable.

[Contrarian]

The atrocities from the Russian side were some of the worst. Forcing German troops to dance like Cossacks is beyond unforgivable.

That photo is from WWI, but yeah....

[Ste]

You sure about that? I've read quite a few books on the Dresden bombings and WW2 bombing in general and bombing accuracy right to the end was woeful, can't remember the stats but it was something like 80% of bombs missed the city or town completely die to port sights, weather and 'creep'. Pathfinders helped though later in the war and you could well be correct in what you say. I've been to Dresden too, saw the Frauenkirche, Semper Opern and the Palace thing...

I think Hamburg was more comprehensively firebombed in 1943, in the books I read though the consensus is that it was more luck (for the RAF, back luck for the locals) that were the main factor here.

Going back to Dresden I think whilst the RAF send over more planes, it was the USAAF that did most of the damage in the daylight raid the morning after, most refresh my memory with a quick pre-bed time Google!

This describes it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Village_(Dugway_proving_ground)

They hired emigre Germans, familiar with this kind of housing, to design and build the replicas. They even replicated the interiors, complete with typical furnishings, trying to ensure that a firestorm effect would be achieved.  Note that this was specifically a plan to bomb residential buildings, not factories.  Deliberate targeting of civilians even during wartime is what occurred in this instance.

You could make a case that FDR was a war criminal IMHO: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_bombardment_and_international_law#International_law_up_to_1945

Ahh this is in USA. I think the British realised pretty early on that even getting the bomb to hit hit the city was a laudable task, especially considering we bombed at night, which the Yanks thought was crazy, The Americans bombed at day, which the Brits though was crazy, having endured heavy losses trying it, as did the USAAF until fighter escort was possible.

But even the super accurate Norden sight was useless in the European weather, indeed some of the USAAF planes on the Dresden raid missed Dresden altogether and bombed Prague.

Interesting link but I still think both the Hamburg and Dresden firestorms were flukes.

When I was in Dresden went to see the fountain the people dived into to escape the firestorm, only to be boiled alive instead. Can't actually picture it now though, they were doing a lot of digging in the city centre then for archeological remains and everything had been moved around.

The bombing of Dresden was done at the behest of Stalin, as it was agreed that as the war was being won, and to appease the Russians, they'd be allowed to enter Berlin first, and needed a clear run, the objective being, as Dresden was a rail hub on he Eastern side, to stop German troop movements.

Not a lot to be proud of in this.

[AvHdB]

Not a lot to be proud of in this.

That is the truth, in hindsight.

I also have a number of times been to Dresden and Liepzig, I wanted to walk around the same streets that had the 'footprints' of J. S. Bach. The first time the Fraeunkirche was not rebuilt. It was a sobering walk. The book by K. Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse Five is based on the Dresden Fire bombing.

There are two other comments, there was a civil legal trial in California against the US government that attempted to declare the bombing a war crime. It was as I understand found that the United States acted legally. I met in Kiev one of the principal lawyers who was gathering evidence in Ukraine. The United States via an Allied (American) base in what is now Ukraine used to fly bombing missions over Europe.

If any one wants to know more about Dresden, do some research of C. D. Friedrich, L. Beethoven and W. v. Goethe and the so-called Romantic period. What I did not know Dresden & Liepzig were part of the Slavic region, being the Western edge.

[Contrarian]

There are plenty of meme's about bankers financing both sides of war; which they may do. However this seems to be an oversimplification of the problem.

Europeans were warring against each other for hundreds if not a thousand years. They've finally had peace in Europe, for the most part for the past 77 years.

They now face a new type of invader, one which treasonous pols like Merkel and Macron have invited in to their fair shores.

This is an interesting article about Prescott Bush and his affiliation with Hitler. This usually gets more notice than say a famous family supporting Communism.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

[Contrarian]

Did the Treaty of Versailles cause the rise of Hitler?

https://www.thoughtco.com/treaty-of-versailles-hitlers-rise-power-1221351

[?ManyQuestions?]

Did the Treaty of Versailles cause the rise of Hitler?

https://www.thoughtco.com/treaty-of-versailles-hitlers-rise-power-1221351

I would argue that yes, it did cause the rise of Hitler. Germany was broke and the people were starving after World War 1. Plus the Germans were hoping that Woodrow Wilson was going to be fair with them. Instead they got the Treaty of Versailles, whiched forced Germany to pay huge amounts of reparations, which left them even more broke and humiliated. Then when Hitler rose to power, he promised to make Germany a prosperous and proud nation again. Then he delivered on his promise, with food and an improved economy. This allowed Hitler to cement his power in Germany.

[Contrarian]

Did the Treaty of Versailles cause the rise of Hitler?

https://www.thoughtco.com/treaty-of-versailles-hitlers-rise-power-1221351

I would argue that yes, it did cause the rise of Hitler. Germany was broke and the people were starving after World War 1. Plus the Germans were hoping that Woodrow Wilson was going to be fair with them. Instead they got the Treaty of Versailles, whiched forced Germany to pay huge amounts of reparations, which left them even more broke and humiliated. Then when Hitler rose to power, he promised to make Germany a prosperous and proud nation again. Then he delivered on his promise, with food and an improved economy. This allowed Hitler to cement his power in Germany.

Don't tell Av, he thinks the Germans are evil and should be punished. Never mind the elites who wanted to deliberately punish Germany and never mind the treachery of the British and others throughout WWI but especially at the end of it which gave rise to what some call "endless wars" around the World. 

[Slumba]

Did the Treaty of Versailles cause the rise of Hitler?

https://www.thoughtco.com/treaty-of-versailles-hitlers-rise-power-1221351

Essentially, yes.  The treaty was too harsh on Germans, caused widespread economic and social problems, which led to political changes.

[AvHdB]

Did the Treaty of Versailles cause the rise of Hitler?

https://www.thoughtco.com/treaty-of-versailles-hitlers-rise-power-1221351

Essentially, yes.  The treaty was too harsh on Germans, caused widespread economic and social problems, which led to political changes.

Yes the Versailles Treaty certainly added to the woes of Germany, in fact it could very well be the stick that broke the proverbial camels back. During the same time there was a world wide depression which slowed every countries economy. There was rising Nationalism around the world and this added fuel to the fire.

Oddly enough I have seen on RUA posts that have railed against the Marshall Plan and the Truman Doctrine.

I guess the simpletons will post away, yet again.

[AvHdB]

Don't tell Av, he thinks the Germans are evil and should be punished. Never mind the elites who wanted to deliberately punish Germany and never mind the treachery of the British and others throughout WWI but especially at the end of it which gave rise to what some call "endless wars" around the World. 

While I have no patience for the fanaticism of some and the ignorance of others.

I thought this might help. >

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"Alle Menschen werden Brüder"