The World's #1 Russian, Ukrainian & Eastern European Discussion & Information Forum - RUA!

This Is the Premier Discussion Forum on the Net for Information and Discussion about Russia, Ukraine, Eastern Europe and the Former Soviet Union. Discuss Culture, Politics, Travelling, Language, International Relationships and More. Chat with Travellers, Locals, Residents and Expats. Ask and Answer Questions about Travel, Culture, Relationships, Applying for Visas, Translators, Interpreters, and More. Give Advice, Read Trip Reports, Share Experiences and Make Friends.

Author Topic: Not so good to be German  (Read 923 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Online Maxx

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4113
  • Country: ge
  • Gender: Male
  • Trips: 5-10
Not so good to be German
« on: July 22, 2017, 03:49:11 AM »
I found this article interesting. As Johnny Carson used to say, "I didn't know that."

Why is everything so cheap in Germany?
Kai Melling
Kai Melling, studied at Saarland University
Updated Jun 8



It is one of the most persistent myths that Germans are rich. Germany is a rich country - alas, with poor inhabitants. Although our economy is the biggest in Europe, the Germans are the poorest people in Western Europe. Even the Irish and the Italians are richer than we are. It stops at Spain and Portugal.

We are taxed to death.

Wages in Germany came under severe pressure due to the labour market reforms by the Schröder administration. Wages in most G20 countries increased 2000 - 2009, but in Germany they plummeted.



Despite the strong economy, the number of impoverished Germans has been steadily increasing. Figures from a European-wide study released in 2012 show one in six people are at risk of poverty.


That is considerably more than in Germany’s neighbouring countries, the Czech Republic and France.

The figures from the German Office of National Statistics (Destatis) and Eurostat, showed 16.1 percent of Germans were at risk of falling into relative poverty, compared to 9.6 percent in the Czech Republic, 10.1 percent in the Netherlands and 14.1 percent in France.

It also suggested that relative poverty in Germany has been rising in spite of the robust economy and falling unemployment. Back in 2005, the number of people at risk of poverty was 12.2 percent. That figure had risen to 16.1 percent in 2011.

The study defined people earning less than 60 percent of the median income as at risk of poverty. By that measure a single person earning less than €980 a month and a family with two children on less than €2,058 a month were at risk of poverty in Germany.

Average (blue) and median (red) distribution of wealth per household:



Germany has the lowest rate of houseowners in Europe.

Considering the wealth per household, the German modell looks even worse than before. Now even the Spaniards overtake us.

And just to be sure, one more time the median distribution of wealth per household:



Quorans complaining that the Germans get things in return, like free health care, defense, infrastructure, school, reirement plans etc miss the point. The French enjoy the same good health as the Germans. They also enjoy the same amount of security and their infrastructure is in better shape.

The number of German pensioners working “mini-jobs” to supplement their income has risen by 60 percent from 2000 to 2012. The figures prompted warnings of an old-age poverty epidemic.

In 2000, 280,000 pensioners had the €400-a-month jobs, which are exempt from taxes and national insurance contributions. This figure has risen to around 761,000 in 2012.

And of these, 120,000 were 75 and older. A further 154,000 people of pensionable age are working in more lucrative positions – twice as many as since then end of 1999 – and 80,000 of these are working full time.

When it comes to employed over-75s, they are rarely university professors who fancy keeping up their job, rather pensioners who are delivering papers, stacking supermarket shelves and doing other unattractive jobs to subsidise their measly pension.

The average monthly pension payment is dropping. In 2000, an average person who took retirement after paying into the system for 35 years would have been set to receive €1,021 a month. By 2011, this had sunk to €953.

Retirement income is in fact further evidence how Germans get dispossessed by their own government. In this respect, Germany lags not only behind the European Union average, but also behind the OECD average. In fact, with a net replacement rate of 50%, it even lags behind Poland.

Net pension replacement rates:



Pensions - Net pension replacement rates - OECD Data

The net replacement rate is defined as the individual net pension entitlement divided by net pre-retirement earnings, taking into account personal income taxes and social security contributions paid by workers and pensioners. It measures how effectively a pension system provides a retirement income to replace earnings, the main source of income before retirement. This indicator is measured in percentage of pre-retirement earnings and can be used to determine the effectiveness of the pension system.
85.6k Views · 523 Upvotes

Online Ste

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4827
  • Country: ie
  • Gender: Male
  • Beware of Muslamic Rayguns
  • Spouses Country: The Planet Zanussi
  • Status: Committed
  • Trips: 5-10
Re: Not so good to be German
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2017, 05:26:14 AM »
Just shows that there are lies, damn lies and statistics...

I've worked and lived in UK, Ireland, Germany, Switzerland and Denmark in the last few years (go where the work is, me!).

Of all those places I'd say, in terms of just how 'rich' people seem, Denmark was the most well-off, followed by Switzerland and Germany, UK then Ireland. Ireland is just about the most taxed place I've ever lived, the UK most debt-ridden, DE/CH more less work/life separate, but for me Denmark was the happiest/nicest/most worry free place. Boring though. Oddly enough here in Ireland despite tax/tax/tax and it being similar in feel to UK, it's not boring!

Fair to say also that in most European countries renting is normal, certainly in Germany, the UK and Ireland (still suffering with the fallout of the Celtic Tiger crash) has followed USA in creating a world of wealth and debt in owning a house. I was brought up in the 70's when a house was where you lived, not an asset who's value you gloat over and brag about.

O pointy birds, o pointy pointy, Anoint my head, anointy-nointy.

Online Maxx

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4113
  • Country: ge
  • Gender: Male
  • Trips: 5-10
Re: Not so good to be German
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2017, 05:50:09 AM »
Just shows that there are lies, damn lies and statistics...

I've worked and lived in UK, Ireland, Germany, Switzerland and Denmark in the last few years (go where the work is, me!).

Of all those places I'd say, in terms of just how 'rich' people seem, Denmark was the most well-off, followed by Switzerland and Germany, UK then Ireland. Ireland is just about the most taxed place I've ever lived, the UK most debt-ridden, DE/CH more less work/life separate, but for me Denmark was the happiest/nicest/most worry free place. Boring though. Oddly enough here in Ireland despite tax/tax/tax and it being similar in feel to UK, it's not boring!

Fair to say also that in most European countries renting is normal, certainly in Germany, the UK and Ireland (still suffering with the fallout of the Celtic Tiger crash) has followed USA in creating a world of wealth and debt in owning a house. I was brought up in the 70's when a house was where you lived, not an asset who's value you gloat over and brag about.

Thanks Ste. Yesterday I was shopping in a Tbilisi mall. Lots of those micro shops there. I went to this shop to buy some clothes and they realized I only knew English went and got an interpreter. She was a 13 year old girl about to enter 8th grade. While everyone was out fetching clothes for me throughout the mall we sat out in the lobby and talked about the pluses and minuses of living in America. She told me her greatest dream was to live in America. I told her about the high prices and how people can be poor making $3000 a month in income. Super smart kid but I could tell she just didn't get it.

You know Ste when I read this article I thought of the US. So many poor people struggling to live. Yet like Germany we let in people take the welfare benefits while we deny our own. I know this is true because I have family member affected. Why isn't there pressure on Saudi Arabia and other rich Muslim counties to provide for their own?


Online Ste

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4827
  • Country: ie
  • Gender: Male
  • Beware of Muslamic Rayguns
  • Spouses Country: The Planet Zanussi
  • Status: Committed
  • Trips: 5-10
Re: Not so good to be German
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2017, 06:03:27 AM »
Just shows that there are lies, damn lies and statistics...

I've worked and lived in UK, Ireland, Germany, Switzerland and Denmark in the last few years (go where the work is, me!).

Of all those places I'd say, in terms of just how 'rich' people seem, Denmark was the most well-off, followed by Switzerland and Germany, UK then Ireland. Ireland is just about the most taxed place I've ever lived, the UK most debt-ridden, DE/CH more less work/life separate, but for me Denmark was the happiest/nicest/most worry free place. Boring though. Oddly enough here in Ireland despite tax/tax/tax and it being similar in feel to UK, it's not boring!

Fair to say also that in most European countries renting is normal, certainly in Germany, the UK and Ireland (still suffering with the fallout of the Celtic Tiger crash) has followed USA in creating a world of wealth and debt in owning a house. I was brought up in the 70's when a house was where you lived, not an asset who's value you gloat over and brag about.

Thanks Ste. Yesterday I was shopping in a Tbilisi mall. Lots of those micro shops there. I went to this shop to buy some clothes and they realized I only knew English went and got an interpreter. She was a 13 year old girl about to enter 8th grade. While everyone was out fetching clothes for me throughout the mall we sat out in the lobby and talked about the pluses and minuses of living in America. She told me her greatest dream was to live in America. I told her about the high prices and how people can be poor making $3000 a month in income. Super smart kid but I could tell she just didn't get it.

I know what you mean, babushka whilst no Stalinist, very much preferred life under USSR, she said she had flat, health, holiday time, utilities, transport etc all free, her salary was just for food and to spend, no worries about putting aside, pension provisions, medical insurance, etc.

That's an ideal for living, but unfortunately takes no account of material desires, natural competitiveness, etc, but it's a way of life worth considering. People assume because I'm socialist I want to just share everything out equally, but it's not about that, it's about people having the same opportunities, either they succeed or fail, but they shouldn't be thrown on the scrapheap at one end or vilified at the other.

O pointy birds, o pointy pointy, Anoint my head, anointy-nointy.

Online Confederate

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4188
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Status: Dating
  • Trips: 1-5
Re: Not so good to be German
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2017, 10:51:49 AM »
The goal of Globalists is to bring all wages down to the level of the BRICS, so if German wages have been falling and become more in line with other european nations it shouldn't be a big surprise.

The more obvious way that Germans have suffered is that they've had their national identity and cultural identity co-opted by others with an agenda to inflict guilt on Germans and to profit from it.



quote
"Although the speech was well-received by young patriots, some remarks did not go over well with the ruling class. Höcke had been bold enough to suggest that

Instead of focusing primarily on those twelve dark years of the country’s history, German youth should be allowed to develop a positive identity by remembering and honoring the achievements of Germany’s numerous composers, poets and philosophers, of which the country had produced perhaps more than any other.
Germany was the only country in the world that had decided to plant a ‘monument of shame’ in the heart of its capital, and had made the most horrible event in its history the foundation of its national identity.
The Allied fire-bombing of Dresden was a war crime comparable to the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The guilt cult, however, allowed for a portrayal of Germans as perpetrators only, preventing them from mourning their own victims.
The press reacted “with disgust and horror” — as if Höcke had denied the Holocaust (which he didn’t). Although Höcke had remained rather factual in his description of the status quo without attacking anyone in particular, vocabulary from the familiar arsenal of curses was hurled at him: “Nazi”, “right-wing extremist”, “Goebbels”, “hard right”, “populist”, “nationalist”, “national Romantic”, and so on and so forth. In an article by Amanda Taub and Max Fischer in the New York Times, his brownish-grey hair suddenly turned blonde, more or less subtly conjuring up images of the blonde Germanic beast, familiar from countless anti-German Hollywood productions and books."

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2017/01/31/bjorn-hocke-and-the-potential-return-of-sanity-in-german-politics/

Offline AvHdB

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9628
  • Country: nl
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouses Country: Ukraine, Kiev
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 20+
Re: Not so good to be German
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2017, 03:44:44 PM »
The goal of Globalists is to bring all wages down to the level of the BRICS, so if German wages have been falling and become more in line with other european nations it shouldn't be a big surprise.

The more obvious way that Germans have suffered is that they've had their national identity and cultural identity co-opted by others with an agenda to inflict guilt on Germans and to profit from it.

quote
"Although the speech was well-received by young patriots, some remarks did not go over well with the ruling class. Höcke had been bold enough to suggest that

Instead of focusing primarily on those twelve dark years of the country’s history, German youth should be allowed to develop a positive identity by remembering and honoring the achievements of Germany’s numerous composers, poets and philosophers, of which the country had produced perhaps more than any other.
Germany was the only country in the world that had decided to plant a ‘monument of shame’ in the heart of its capital, and had made the most horrible event in its history the foundation of its national identity.
The Allied fire-bombing of Dresden was a war crime comparable to the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The guilt cult, however, allowed for a portrayal of Germans as perpetrators only, preventing them from mourning their own victims.
The press reacted “with disgust and horror” — as if Höcke had denied the Holocaust (which he didn’t). Although Höcke had remained rather factual in his description of the status quo without attacking anyone in particular, vocabulary from the familiar arsenal of curses was hurled at him: “Nazi”, “right-wing extremist”, “Goebbels”, “hard right”, “populist”, “nationalist”, “national Romantic”, and so on and so forth. In an article by Amanda Taub and Max Fischer in the New York Times, his brownish-grey hair suddenly turned blonde, more or less subtly conjuring up images of the blonde Germanic beast, familiar from countless anti-German Hollywood productions and books."

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2017/01/31/bjorn-hocke-and-the-potential-return-of-sanity-in-german-politics/

For a number of decades products from Germany were superior to those from the United States, Japan or China. This disparity has largely eroded in the last ten or so years, the rest of the world has caught up. The economy of Germany which largely drives the Euro zone has and is suffering. But Germans are pragmatic and realistic and they are adjusting.

On the other side from my perspective I am very much opposed to any attempt to ignore German murder, mayhem or genocide for 12 years. And with the same breath I think the attempts to whitewash Stalin are repulsive. On the other side the march of Sherman left too much civilian devastation and death.
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

Offline Slumba

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2300
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • 10:27 AM
  • Status: Just Looking
  • Trips: 1-5
Re: Not so good to be German
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2017, 03:51:22 PM »
Unfortunately, due to Merkel's treason, you have to drop out the the ne'er-do-well Turks and the more recent Muslim and African arrivals. 

How well are ethnic Germans doing? They are being tossed by the wayside due to the society-destroying behavior of the new arrivals.

My understanding is that if you are the equivalent of a "Boomer" in Germany and were born in West Germany, you are doing OK. East Germans, no matter the age, did not have the same abilities to create and store wealth.  Younger Germans are also getting shafted.
Anchors Rewoven

Offline AvHdB

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9628
  • Country: nl
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouses Country: Ukraine, Kiev
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 20+
Re: Not so good to be German
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2017, 03:56:54 PM »
Unfortunately, due to Merkel's treason, you have to drop out the the ne'er-do-well Turks and the more recent Muslim and African arrivals. 

How well are ethnic Germans doing? They are being tossed by the wayside due to the society-destroying behavior of the new arrivals.

My understanding is that if you are the equivalent of a "Boomer" in Germany and were born in West Germany, you are doing OK. East Germans, no matter the age, did not have the same abilities to create and store wealth.  Younger Germans are also getting shafted.

Curious when were you the last in Germany; East, West, South or North?
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

Online Ste

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4827
  • Country: ie
  • Gender: Male
  • Beware of Muslamic Rayguns
  • Spouses Country: The Planet Zanussi
  • Status: Committed
  • Trips: 5-10
Re: Not so good to be German
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2017, 04:35:44 PM »
The goal of Globalists is to bring all wages down to the level of the BRICS, so if German wages have been falling and become more in line with other european nations it shouldn't be a big surprise.

The more obvious way that Germans have suffered is that they've had their national identity and cultural identity co-opted by others with an agenda to inflict guilt on Germans and to profit from it.

quote
"Although the speech was well-received by young patriots, some remarks did not go over well with the ruling class. Höcke had been bold enough to suggest that

Instead of focusing primarily on those twelve dark years of the country’s history, German youth should be allowed to develop a positive identity by remembering and honoring the achievements of Germany’s numerous composers, poets and philosophers, of which the country had produced perhaps more than any other.
Germany was the only country in the world that had decided to plant a ‘monument of shame’ in the heart of its capital, and had made the most horrible event in its history the foundation of its national identity.
The Allied fire-bombing of Dresden was a war crime comparable to the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The guilt cult, however, allowed for a portrayal of Germans as perpetrators only, preventing them from mourning their own victims.
The press reacted “with disgust and horror” — as if Höcke had denied the Holocaust (which he didn’t). Although Höcke had remained rather factual in his description of the status quo without attacking anyone in particular, vocabulary from the familiar arsenal of curses was hurled at him: “Nazi”, “right-wing extremist”, “Goebbels”, “hard right”, “populist”, “nationalist”, “national Romantic”, and so on and so forth. In an article by Amanda Taub and Max Fischer in the New York Times, his brownish-grey hair suddenly turned blonde, more or less subtly conjuring up images of the blonde Germanic beast, familiar from countless anti-German Hollywood productions and books."

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2017/01/31/bjorn-hocke-and-the-potential-return-of-sanity-in-german-politics/

For a number of decades products from Germany were superior to those from the United States, Japan or China. This disparity has largely eroded in the last ten or so years, the rest of the world has caught up. The economy of Germany which largely drives the Euro zone has and is suffering. But Germans are pragmatic and realistic and they are adjusting.

On the other side from my perspective I am very much opposed to any attempt to ignore German murder, mayhem or genocide for 12 years. And with the same breath I think the attempts to whitewash Stalin are repulsive. On the other side the march of Sherman left too much civilian devastation and death.

Should also mention Churchill, a monstrous war criminal.
O pointy birds, o pointy pointy, Anoint my head, anointy-nointy.

Offline Slumba

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2300
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • 10:27 AM
  • Status: Just Looking
  • Trips: 1-5
Re: Not so good to be German
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2017, 04:56:15 PM »
The goal of Globalists is to bring all wages down to the level of the BRICS, so if German wages have been falling and become more in line with other european nations it shouldn't be a big surprise.

The more obvious way that Germans have suffered is that they've had their national identity and cultural identity co-opted by others with an agenda to inflict guilt on Germans and to profit from it.

quote
"Although the speech was well-received by young patriots, some remarks did not go over well with the ruling class. Höcke had been bold enough to suggest that

Instead of focusing primarily on those twelve dark years of the country’s history, German youth should be allowed to develop a positive identity by remembering and honoring the achievements of Germany’s numerous composers, poets and philosophers, of which the country had produced perhaps more than any other.
Germany was the only country in the world that had decided to plant a ‘monument of shame’ in the heart of its capital, and had made the most horrible event in its history the foundation of its national identity.
The Allied fire-bombing of Dresden was a war crime comparable to the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The guilt cult, however, allowed for a portrayal of Germans as perpetrators only, preventing them from mourning their own victims.
The press reacted “with disgust and horror” — as if Höcke had denied the Holocaust (which he didn’t). Although Höcke had remained rather factual in his description of the status quo without attacking anyone in particular, vocabulary from the familiar arsenal of curses was hurled at him: “Nazi”, “right-wing extremist”, “Goebbels”, “hard right”, “populist”, “nationalist”, “national Romantic”, and so on and so forth. In an article by Amanda Taub and Max Fischer in the New York Times, his brownish-grey hair suddenly turned blonde, more or less subtly conjuring up images of the blonde Germanic beast, familiar from countless anti-German Hollywood productions and books."

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2017/01/31/bjorn-hocke-and-the-potential-return-of-sanity-in-german-politics/

For a number of decades products from Germany were superior to those from the United States, Japan or China. This disparity has largely eroded in the last ten or so years, the rest of the world has caught up. The economy of Germany which largely drives the Euro zone has and is suffering. But Germans are pragmatic and realistic and they are adjusting.

On the other side from my perspective I am very much opposed to any attempt to ignore German murder, mayhem or genocide for 12 years. And with the same breath I think the attempts to whitewash Stalin are repulsive. On the other side the march of Sherman left too much civilian devastation and death.

Should also mention Churchill, a monstrous war criminal.

When you realize that:

1. exactly zero of the perpetrators of the Dresden bombing faced a Nuremberg war trial, despite building an exact replica of the houses in Dresden and figuring out how best to ignite a firestorm among the houses (not warehouses and factories)

and

2. Julius Streicher, who never served in the military, never engaged in anything other than newspaper and book publishing during the Nazi years, and was hanged (but we are constantly told of Nazi book burnings, hmmm?)

Then you realize that Nuremberg was not justice and law, but simply politics.
Anchors Rewoven

Online Ste

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4827
  • Country: ie
  • Gender: Male
  • Beware of Muslamic Rayguns
  • Spouses Country: The Planet Zanussi
  • Status: Committed
  • Trips: 5-10
Re: Not so good to be German
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2017, 05:27:01 PM »
The goal of Globalists is to bring all wages down to the level of the BRICS, so if German wages have been falling and become more in line with other european nations it shouldn't be a big surprise.

The more obvious way that Germans have suffered is that they've had their national identity and cultural identity co-opted by others with an agenda to inflict guilt on Germans and to profit from it.

quote
"Although the speech was well-received by young patriots, some remarks did not go over well with the ruling class. Höcke had been bold enough to suggest that

Instead of focusing primarily on those twelve dark years of the country’s history, German youth should be allowed to develop a positive identity by remembering and honoring the achievements of Germany’s numerous composers, poets and philosophers, of which the country had produced perhaps more than any other.
Germany was the only country in the world that had decided to plant a ‘monument of shame’ in the heart of its capital, and had made the most horrible event in its history the foundation of its national identity.
The Allied fire-bombing of Dresden was a war crime comparable to the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The guilt cult, however, allowed for a portrayal of Germans as perpetrators only, preventing them from mourning their own victims.
The press reacted “with disgust and horror” — as if Höcke had denied the Holocaust (which he didn’t). Although Höcke had remained rather factual in his description of the status quo without attacking anyone in particular, vocabulary from the familiar arsenal of curses was hurled at him: “Nazi”, “right-wing extremist”, “Goebbels”, “hard right”, “populist”, “nationalist”, “national Romantic”, and so on and so forth. In an article by Amanda Taub and Max Fischer in the New York Times, his brownish-grey hair suddenly turned blonde, more or less subtly conjuring up images of the blonde Germanic beast, familiar from countless anti-German Hollywood productions and books."

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2017/01/31/bjorn-hocke-and-the-potential-return-of-sanity-in-german-politics/

For a number of decades products from Germany were superior to those from the United States, Japan or China. This disparity has largely eroded in the last ten or so years, the rest of the world has caught up. The economy of Germany which largely drives the Euro zone has and is suffering. But Germans are pragmatic and realistic and they are adjusting.

On the other side from my perspective I am very much opposed to any attempt to ignore German murder, mayhem or genocide for 12 years. And with the same breath I think the attempts to whitewash Stalin are repulsive. On the other side the march of Sherman left too much civilian devastation and death.

Should also mention Churchill, a monstrous war criminal.

When you realize that:

1. exactly zero of the perpetrators of the Dresden bombing faced a Nuremberg war trial, despite building an exact replica of the houses in Dresden and figuring out how best to ignite a firestorm among the houses (not warehouses and factories)

and

2. Julius Streicher, who never served in the military, never engaged in anything other than newspaper and book publishing during the Nazi years, and was hanged (but we are constantly told of Nazi book burnings, hmmm?)

Then you realize that Nuremberg was not justice and law, but simply politics.

You sure about that? I've read quite a few books on the Dresden bombings and WW2 bombing in general and bombing accuracy right to the end was woeful, can't remember the stats but it was something like 80% of bombs missed the city or town completely die to port sights, weather and 'creep'. Pathfinders helped though later in the war and you could well be correct in what you say. I've been to Dresden too, saw the Frauenkirche, Semper Opern and the Palace thing...

I think Hamburg was more comprehensively firebombed in 1943, in the books I read though the consensus is that it was more luck (for the RAF, back luck for the locals) that were the main factor here.

Going back to Dresden I think whilst the RAF send over more planes, it was the USAAF that did most of the damage in the daylight raid the morning after, most refresh my memory with a quick pre-bed time Google!

O pointy birds, o pointy pointy, Anoint my head, anointy-nointy.

Offline AvHdB

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9628
  • Country: nl
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouses Country: Ukraine, Kiev
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 20+
Re: Not so good to be German
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2017, 05:44:36 PM »
Perhaps I should mention the bombing of Rotterdam, by the Nazis.

“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

Online Ste

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4827
  • Country: ie
  • Gender: Male
  • Beware of Muslamic Rayguns
  • Spouses Country: The Planet Zanussi
  • Status: Committed
  • Trips: 5-10
Re: Not so good to be German
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2017, 05:56:37 PM »
Perhaps I should mention the bombing of Rotterdam, by the Nazis.

And Coventry, even gave rise to a verb in German, coventrieren - to devaste by bombing.
O pointy birds, o pointy pointy, Anoint my head, anointy-nointy.

Offline Slumba

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2300
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • 10:27 AM
  • Status: Just Looking
  • Trips: 1-5
Re: Not so good to be German
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2017, 05:56:49 PM »

You sure about that? I've read quite a few books on the Dresden bombings and WW2 bombing in general and bombing accuracy right to the end was woeful, can't remember the stats but it was something like 80% of bombs missed the city or town completely die to port sights, weather and 'creep'. Pathfinders helped though later in the war and you could well be correct in what you say. I've been to Dresden too, saw the Frauenkirche, Semper Opern and the Palace thing...

I think Hamburg was more comprehensively firebombed in 1943, in the books I read though the consensus is that it was more luck (for the RAF, back luck for the locals) that were the main factor here.

Going back to Dresden I think whilst the RAF send over more planes, it was the USAAF that did most of the damage in the daylight raid the morning after, most refresh my memory with a quick pre-bed time Google!

This describes it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Village_(Dugway_proving_ground)

They hired emigre Germans, familiar with this kind of housing, to design and build the replicas. They even replicated the interiors, complete with typical furnishings, trying to ensure that a firestorm effect would be achieved.  Note that this was specifically a plan to bomb residential buildings, not factories.  Deliberate targeting of civilians even during wartime is what occurred in this instance.

You could make a case that FDR was a war criminal IMHO: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_bombardment_and_international_law#International_law_up_to_1945
Anchors Rewoven

Offline rw_recruiter

  • Member
  • Posts: 145
  • Gender: Male
  • Trips: None Yet
Re: Not so good to be German
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2017, 07:26:21 PM »
The atrocities from the Russian side were some of the worst. Forcing German troops to dance like Cossacks is beyond unforgivable.