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Author Topic: The Non-Invasion of Ukraine  (Read 837 times)

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Online msmoby

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The Non-Invasion of Ukraine
« on: January 08, 2017, 10:03:15 AM »
Mod note: Topic here is split off from >>here<<.

You got Russia invading looking to take over that country

Erm, no you haven't or they would have done so long before now.  :coffeeread:

You keep posting this and making sure I don't remind you that the GRU troops that arrived in Crimea and E.Ukraine needed to forcibly take control of UA govt and military institutions, radio / TV masts and that's not an 'invasions' ?


Offline Manny

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Re: The Non-Invasion of Ukraine
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2017, 01:44:45 PM »

You got Russia invading looking to take over that country

Erm, no you haven't or they would have done so long before now.  :coffeeread:

You keep posting this and making sure I don't remind you that the GRU troops that arrived in Crimea and E.Ukraine needed to forcibly take control of UA govt and military institutions, radio / TV masts and that's not an 'invasions' ?

East Ukraine [with the support of the people] is now independent because they didn't want to be ruled by a US installed junta - no Russian support ever proved. Crimea [hardly a shot fired and with the support of the people] was a reaction to a specific provocation, and in fact, more like correcting history. Crimea CHOSE to join Russia. There was no "invasion" or Russia would have taken Kiev. These are well-known facts [except it seems to our Canadian member]. As you well know. Don't clog the topic with your silliness and trolling, Moby.

Online Confederate

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Re: The Non-Invasion of Ukraine
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2017, 02:22:39 PM »
^Clearly no full scale invasion because if so Russia probably could have taken Kiev within a week.  However it also seems clear that there has been material support and considering E. Ukraine's close historical relationship w/ Russia via language, culture and history this seems rather natural.


Offline AvHdB

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Re: The Non-Invasion of Ukraine
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2017, 02:57:25 PM »
Would it not be better to move comments #10 onwards to a different thread so not another trip report is derailed ?
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

Online msmoby

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Re: The Non-Invasion of Ukraine
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2017, 03:05:07 PM »

East Ukraine [with the support of the people] is now independent because they didn't want to be ruled by a US installed junta

 Yanu' was corrupt and was removed by Ukrainian people - and disavowed by his own political party ..The 'antimaidan' mantra of juntas and nazis has long died down ..you might still need to post this guff for your sponsors - but GRU troops kicked off insurrection in a nation the Kremlin vowed to protect when it gave up it's Nukes

- no Russian support ever proved.

Repeating a fib won't make it any less of a lie - the normal final excuse being - well, OK they were Russians but acting of their own volition ... yeah right !


 Crimea-hardly a shot fired and with the support of the people- With the support of the people

 - who were being told ;they were at risk from Kyiv' ... with 25k Russian service personnel on the island?! - We weren't ever going to hear much about non-support - once western media had been removed .. and Belarus - like 96 percent results were announced

Having been to Crimea - I know most folks felt a stronger tie to Russia - but the Kremlin agreed it was part of Ukraine and then stirred up folks who had been - mostly - quite happy to have been an autonomous Republic.

was a reaction to a specific provocation, and in fact, more like correcting history. Crimea CHOSE to join Russia. There was no "invasion" or Russia would have taken Kiev.

The Kremlin might have succeeded - but it only bit off chunks it knows it can get away with... the further west it might try to push - it knows it will not have enough support. It might not be able to control insurrection - as it has in the parts of E.Ukraine the 'rebels' kept - thanks to the support of the regular Russian army intervention in August '14.

What we have is another Kremlin tactic - 'frozen conflicts'  - as in Georgia ..Abkhazia isn't really independent - just like the occupied Donbas regions of UA - it uses the Rouble and it funded by Moscow


These are well-known facts [except it seems to our Canadian member]. As you well know. Don't clog the topic with your silliness and trolling, Moby.

'Facts' ?  'Well-known' ?   I well know them to be a shadow of the truth..    I've been to most of these places and know how they are / were before ...  People have and are still dying because the Kremlin decided to 'right' these wrongs' of history' ..  There are better ways to solve these problems than using military might - but that wouldn't help deflect folks back home from worrying about the economy ... What better way to deflect from those issues than by winning wars - wars you don't admit to - outcomes that enjoy popular support ?

Naturally, I'll attempt to correct your bollox - you need to ensure such posts don't see the light of day - try to suggest sort sort of craziness on my part or that I'm a paid 'troll' ... 

I REALLY don't like that many Ukrainian people now hate Russians or at least the Russian govt and Russians genuinely can't understand why .... 

Since '91 Kyiv has set about creating a national identity that Russians mock - just like they do with the Baltic States.... things like, 'they are not a nation' ?..  The away games of the Kremlin have split families and you try to suggest I'm a 'troll' for pointing out that the Kremlin ruthlessly oppressed insurrection and forbids promotion of cessation from the RF - but actively promotes it in it's neighbours ?!



 







Offline Manny

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Re: The Non-Invasion of Ukraine
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2017, 05:04:14 PM »
Yanu' was corrupt and was removed by Ukrainian people -

Who just happened to have a handy stock of EU flags nearby, yes?

No Moby. It was a coup funded by the US, the EU and Soros.

for your sponsors -

Sponsors? Nice try. We are advertiser and member funded. Why not join them? >>Donate Here<<

Having been to Crimea - I know most folks felt a stronger tie to Russia -

Which explains the vote to join Russia.

The rest of your post is tosh and not worth responding to.  :coffeeread:

Offline AvHdB

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Re: The Non-Invasion of Ukraine
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2017, 08:44:15 PM »
Yanu' was corrupt and was removed by Ukrainian people -

Who just happened to have a handy stock of EU flags nearby, yes?

No Moby. It was a coup funded by the US, the EU and Soros.


There is no evidence to support the claim of an American/European orchestrated coup.

EU flags are readily available and have been since the European Foot Ball Championship.

I noted a protest in the summer outside the Rada where there were hundreds of EU flags and those of Ukraine.
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

Online Confederate

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Re: The Non-Invasion of Ukraine
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2017, 09:52:22 PM »
Yanu' was corrupt and was removed by Ukrainian people -

Who just happened to have a handy stock of EU flags nearby, yes?

No Moby. It was a coup funded by the US, the EU and Soros.


There is no evidence to support the claim of an American/European orchestrated coup.

EU flags are readily available and have been since the European Foot Ball Championship.

I noted a protest in the summer outside the Rada where there were hundreds of EU flags and those of Ukraine.

How many Billions has the IMF loaned Ukraine? You really expect us to believe those loans do not have strings?

Is Soros or is he not on record as saying the West needs to help Ukraine? How much has Soros loaned Ukraine?

Offline el_guero

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Re: The Non-Invasion of Ukraine
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2017, 09:53:30 PM »
The 'Americans' (*) spent $50 Million US over 20 years on the 'democratization' of Ukraine.

State Dept spent $180M in one year on the Muslim Brotherhood to oust the Egyptian Government.

YES, Putin yelled loudly and RT fanned the 'news' that America had overthrown Ukraine, but the LGM were NOT American Spetznaz. And the LGM were in the Donbas.

Wayne
(*) In this case, this is State Dept through USAID spending. It is always difficult to nail down the overall spending, because there are 2 Democrat controlled NGO's (most funding is from US Federal Budget) and there are 2 Republican controlled NGO's. There is also Soros and a couple of other rich Liberals going around the world funding democracy movements, nation building, regime change, or whatever the next PC term will be for slaughter.

But, no. I do not believe the US invested enough to actively change the outcome in Ukraine, unlike what Democrats tried to do in Israel, Belarus, Egypt, Libya, Syria, or Russia. Notice, they are only ab out 50% successful.

Offline el_guero

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Re: The Non-Invasion of Ukraine
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2017, 09:57:54 PM »
You will continue to see the word loan in relation to Ukraine.

You won't see that about monies given to Syrian terrorists, or those in Egypt, or Libya.

IF the West cared 2 cents about Ukraine, they would have funded Ukraine $4 Billion per month from the start. No strings attached.

AND THEY WOULD HAVE BUILD THE SAFE ZONES I RECOMMENDED in Syria and Libya.

And Joint Operations Bases in Romania/Ukraine, Hungary/Ukraine, and Poland/Ukraine. Leave most of the hardware on the 'NATO' side of the borders. Train up the Ukrainians on the equipment - I have greatly upped my recommendation on the EQ. Release ALL the equipment on loan if Russia began full-scale ops.

Wayne

Offline AvHdB

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Re: The Non-Invasion of Ukraine
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2017, 10:05:41 PM »
While many will complain about Putin. He has one quality and that is he is smarter than leaders or soon to be former 'leaders' in the West.

He clearly does not wish to start World War 3 by fully invading Ukraine. The Budapest Security Agreement would be invoked. 
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

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Re: The Non-Invasion of Ukraine
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2017, 10:07:31 PM »
The 'Americans' (*) spent $50 Million US over 20 years on the 'democratization' of Ukraine.

State Dept spent $180M in one year on the Muslim Brotherhood to oust the Egyptian Government.

YES, Putin yelled loudly and RT fanned the 'news' that America had overthrown Ukraine, but the LGM were NOT American Spetznaz. And the LGM were in the Donbas.

Wayne
(*) In this case, this is State Dept through USAID spending. It is always difficult to nail down the overall spending, because there are 2 Democrat controlled NGO's (most funding is from US Federal Budget) and there are 2 Republican controlled NGO's. There is also Soros and a couple of other rich Liberals going around the world funding democracy movements, nation building, regime change, or whatever the next PC term will be for slaughter.

But, no. I do not believe the US invested enough to actively change the outcome in Ukraine, unlike what Democrats tried to do in Israel, Belarus, Egypt, Libya, Syria, or Russia. Notice, they are only ab out 50% successful.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2015/02/05/new-policy-rescue-ukraine/

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Re: The Non-Invasion of Ukraine
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2017, 10:13:19 PM »
While many will complain about Putin. He has one quality and that is he is smarter than leaders or soon to be former 'leaders' in the West.

He clearly does not wish to start World War 3 by fully invading Ukraine. The Budapest Security Agreement would be invoked.

 :ROFL:          :ROFL:           :ROFL:   

Offline Gipsy

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Re: The Non-Invasion of Ukraine
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2017, 10:22:54 PM »
You will continue to see the word loan in relation to Ukraine.

You won't see that about monies given to Syrian terrorists, or those in Egypt, or Libya.

IF the West cared 2 cents about Ukraine, they would have funded Ukraine $4 Billion per month from the start. No strings attached.

AND THEY WOULD HAVE BUILD THE SAFE ZONES I RECOMMENDED in Syria and Libya.

And Joint Operations Bases in Romania/Ukraine, Hungary/Ukraine, and Poland/Ukraine. Leave most of the hardware on the 'NATO' side of the borders. Train up the Ukrainians on the equipment - I have greatly upped my recommendation on the EQ. Release ALL the equipment on loan if Russia began full-scale ops.

Wayne

YOU are a warmonger 1st class.

What right did the US have to go into Syria, Libya, or any of the other countries that they invaded??
As far as Ukraine is concerned, I believe very strongly that the US and the EU caused the current problems.
The US has many secret service/Intelligence/Special ops personnel in Ukraine at this time, they are based on 2 floors of the Ukrainian secret services building in Kiev...

Online msmoby

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Re: The Non-Invasion of Ukraine
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2017, 11:12:25 PM »
Yanu' was corrupt and was removed by Ukrainian people -

Who just happened to have a handy stock of EU flags nearby, yes?

You mean like the folks in Crimea having Ru ones - mean something, too ?

No Moby. It was a coup funded by the US, the EU and Soros.

Only an idiot would deny that both the west and Moscow had invested in Kyiv's future...I can't think of the adjective to describe someone who stubbornly believes that the crowds demonstrating their support - when Yanu' fled were renta-crowd :)

Oooops..  I forgot I know ethnic Russian folk - living in Kyiv 30 + years - who were overjoyed...  One of 'ems a journo and t'other works in leisure...both lived in families serving in the red army at officer level... not passionate about Ukrainian independence ..until they felt that Moscow was interfering, too much ..not stupid people ..and the suggestion that they were motivated by money ... DAFT..

It is incredibly sad that such people have now become so anti-Russian.


Quote from: Manny
for your sponsors -

Sponsors? Nice try. We are advertiser and member funded. Why not join them? >>Donate Here<<

Why deny it .. you come across as  doubting Thomas... ?  There's nothing wrong in believing passionately about a cause...

Having been to Crimea - I know most folks felt a stronger tie to Russia -



Which explains the vote to join Russia.

Having taken military control and control of the media. first ?  I have no doubt the majority of Crimeans voted to re-join Russia

.In the same way you suggest the Ukrainian people were 'motivated', I suggest - as did the the Indian rep of the UN Human Rights - that the polarising content of RU media was likely to result in conflict and loss of life


The nations of the UN voted on Ukraine and you know the results .. the Kremlin only avoided censure at the Sec Council - because of their own veto and Ukraine's resolution was carried 100:11

So, when you tell us - 'how it is' - I'll remind you of how it REALLY is .. 

The issue is how the referenda in Crimea and E.Ukraine came about came about - the military intervention that preceded..


The rest of your post is tosh and not worth responding to.  :coffeeread:

Indeed, pointing out that it is illegal to promote cessation from the RF in the media - but how the Kremlin has to varying degrees promoted and even got physically involved in such activity in Ukraine and disputed parts of Georgia and Chechnya  is something you'd I'm sure you wish to avoid.

Why the need for such laws ... ? Our own Kingdom has had referenda as to whether constituent states wish to remain ..N.Ireland and Scotland..  A nation that is comfortable in it's own skin doesn't NEED such laws..right ?