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Author Topic: Starting up in Ukraine  (Read 3647 times)

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Online andrewfi

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Re: Starting up in Ukraine
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2016, 03:33:56 PM »
I assuming that you, superpanda, are referring to the United Kingdom when mentioning the UK?

I always understand price as being a reflection of risk. That is, higher price (and concomitant lower GP) reflects lower risk. Thus paying a higher price for your raw materials in the UK reflects two things:
1 the risk of failure is significantly lowered by dealing with suppliers,  or setting up the whole operation, in the United Kingdom.

2 the lowered risk also tends to increase predictability.

These are attributes that are usually considered worth paying for,  yes?

By taking on increased risk and lower predictability you are,  in essence, gambling. Given your stated preference is linked to non-business, emotional, factors is this a good risk to impose upon your business partners and investors, particularly given that your emotional bias is not likely to be reflected in any part of a business plan or budget shared with those partners and investors?

What is your assessment of the cost benefit of the use of,  what sounds like, a greenfield investment in a vertically integrated setup in Ukraine as compared to a similar setup in the UK or buying in raw materials from UK or Ukraine based suppliers?

To be straightforward about what you have shared I get the strong impression that this project and your stated preference for setting up the whole business in Ukraine is based upon your desire to find totty over there and enjoy the life of the wealthy(ish) foreign biznizman. Many people have had their illusions shattered by the introduction of harsh reality when,  too late, they understood the real costs of their dreams.

I am not saying that you shouldn't do it,  but rather that you need to exclude your emotional entanglement and work out the real costs,  real risks and rewards of your various options.

Having lived over here,  in what I  call FSU LITE for many years I have seen at first hand how many people came a cropper in this,  relatively easy, environment because they became confused by their desired image and lifestyle at the expense of their business abilities and knowhow. I know that the situation in Ukraine is much more difficult to manage for an objective business person than it is here.
"For what else is the life of man but a kind of play in which men in various costumes perform until the director motions them offstage?" -Erasmus

Offline Gipsy

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Re: Starting up in Ukraine
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2016, 10:01:29 PM »
You never give any details like what kinds of businesses or where who had to be paid. So when it is all over with your statement do not mean anything. They are just vague comments.

Exactly..

My private and personal life is just that......  Private....
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Online AvHdB

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Re: Starting up in Ukraine
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2016, 08:08:13 AM »

By taking on increased risk and lower predictability you are,  in essence, gambling. Given your stated preference is linked to non-business, emotional, factors is this a good risk to impose upon your business partners and investors, particularly given that your emotional bias is not likely to be reflected in any part of a business plan or budget shared with those partners and investors?

To be straightforward about what you have shared I get the strong impression that this project and your stated preference for setting up the whole business in Ukraine is based upon your desire to find totty over there and enjoy the life of the wealthy(ish) foreign biznizman. Many people have had their illusions shattered by the introduction of harsh reality when,  too late, they understood the real costs of their dreams.

I am not saying that you shouldn't do it,  but rather that you need to exclude your emotional entanglement and work out the real costs,  real risks and rewards of your various options.


Andrew often does not agree with my perspective and vice versa. But he is pointing out some important issues that you need to answer for your self before you proceed.

I do not see you seeking information on relationships on RUA only a business venture. If you can 'afford' to lose your investment and the upside is worth it  than I say go for it.

It would be nice if you came back in 18 months and could show the bird to the naysayers. But there is an expression 'if it is easy everyone would be doing it'
BTW I’m looking forward to the next Civil War in the USA
 


Online Steveboy

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Re: Starting up in Ukraine
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2016, 04:53:13 AM »
I assuming that you, superpanda, are referring to the United Kingdom when mentioning the UK?

I always understand price as being a reflection of risk. That is, higher price (and concomitant lower GP) reflects lower risk. Thus paying a higher price for your raw materials in the UK reflects two things:
1 the risk of failure is significantly lowered by dealing with suppliers,  or setting up the whole operation, in the United Kingdom.

2 the lowered risk also tends to increase predictability.

These are attributes that are usually considered worth paying for,  yes?

By taking on increased risk and lower predictability you are,  in essence, gambling. Given your stated preference is linked to non-business, emotional, factors is this a good risk to impose upon your business partners and investors, particularly given that your emotional bias is not likely to be reflected in any part of a business plan or budget shared with those partners and investors?

What is your assessment of the cost benefit of the use of,  what sounds like, a greenfield investment in a vertically integrated setup in Ukraine as compared to a similar setup in the UK or buying in raw materials from UK or Ukraine based suppliers?

To be straightforward about what you have shared I get the strong impression that this project and your stated preference for setting up the whole business in Ukraine is based upon your desire to find totty over there and enjoy the life of the wealthy(ish) foreign biznizman. Many people have had their illusions shattered by the introduction of harsh reality when,  too late, they understood the real costs of their dreams.

I am not saying that you shouldn't do it,  but rather that you need to exclude your emotional entanglement and work out the real costs,  real risks and rewards of your various options.

Having lived over here,  in what I  call FSU LITE for many years I have seen at first hand how many people came a cropper in this,  relatively easy, environment because they became confused by their desired image and lifestyle at the expense of their business abilities and knowhow. I know that the situation in Ukraine is much more difficult to manage for an objective business person than it is here.


To be straightforward about what you have shared I get the strong impression that this project and your stated preference for setting up the whole business in Ukraine is based upon your desire to find totty over there and enjoy the life of the wealthy(ish) foreign biznizman. Many people have had their illusions shattered by the introduction of harsh reality when,  too late, they understood the real costs of their dreams.

That is about as close to the truth as you possibly can get..St Petersburg is full of Turkish business men ( They usually sell 2/3 pairs of socks a week) You will see them in many clubs giving all the gab..funny they usually expect the women to pay for the taxi back , should they catch a young lady.. :laugh:
I support no government anywhere, ever, never. No institution, No religion!!

Offline Gipsy

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Re: Starting up in Ukraine
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2016, 05:00:22 AM »
I assuming that you, superpanda, are referring to the United Kingdom when mentioning the UK?

I always understand price as being a reflection of risk. That is, higher price (and concomitant lower GP) reflects lower risk. Thus paying a higher price for your raw materials in the UK reflects two things:
1 the risk of failure is significantly lowered by dealing with suppliers,  or setting up the whole operation, in the United Kingdom.

2 the lowered risk also tends to increase predictability.

These are attributes that are usually considered worth paying for,  yes?

By taking on increased risk and lower predictability you are,  in essence, gambling. Given your stated preference is linked to non-business, emotional, factors is this a good risk to impose upon your business partners and investors, particularly given that your emotional bias is not likely to be reflected in any part of a business plan or budget shared with those partners and investors?

What is your assessment of the cost benefit of the use of,  what sounds like, a greenfield investment in a vertically integrated setup in Ukraine as compared to a similar setup in the UK or buying in raw materials from UK or Ukraine based suppliers?

To be straightforward about what you have shared I get the strong impression that this project and your stated preference for setting up the whole business in Ukraine is based upon your desire to find totty over there and enjoy the life of the wealthy(ish) foreign biznizman. Many people have had their illusions shattered by the introduction of harsh reality when,  too late, they understood the real costs of their dreams.

I am not saying that you shouldn't do it,  but rather that you need to exclude your emotional entanglement and work out the real costs,  real risks and rewards of your various options.

Having lived over here,  in what I  call FSU LITE for many years I have seen at first hand how many people came a cropper in this,  relatively easy, environment because they became confused by their desired image and lifestyle at the expense of their business abilities and knowhow. I know that the situation in Ukraine is much more difficult to manage for an objective business person than it is here.


To be straightforward about what you have shared I get the strong impression that this project and your stated preference for setting up the whole business in Ukraine is based upon your desire to find totty over there and enjoy the life of the wealthy(ish) foreign biznizman. Many people have had their illusions shattered by the introduction of harsh reality when,  too late, they understood the real costs of their dreams.

That is about as close to the truth as you possibly can get..St Petersburg is full of Turkish business men ( They usually sell 2/3 pairs of socks a week) You will see them in many clubs giving all the gab..funny they usually expect the women to pay for the taxi back , should they catch a young lady.. :laugh:

How much is a taxi from St P's to Turkey??   ;D
Bridge is a lot like sex, either you need a good partner, or a decent hand... Woody Allen

Online andrewfi

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Re: Starting up in Ukraine
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2016, 07:14:05 AM »
I doubt that many people take a taxi, with their bride de nuit, much further than their apartment on Fontanka. My recollections of my time there would suggest that Steve's observation is not far off the mark though. ;)
"For what else is the life of man but a kind of play in which men in various costumes perform until the director motions them offstage?" -Erasmus

Online Steveboy

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Re: Starting up in Ukraine
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2016, 09:16:38 AM »
Making a business in Ukraine! We advertise in Yandex.ru all ok no big problems.. THEN it comes to advertising in Yandex.ua    Its pretty well the usual Ukrainian story... forget about it! fake clicks/fake women/marriage agencies/other sites clicking your ads.. I think they have some set up like maybe 20 women working for them in some stupid sitting room and the boss says "When your home tonight girls I want each of you to click this link and make a fake profile"

Its so pathetic it is laughable..and its funny you can have a Russian site not really much trouble with web site hackers .. Ukrainian well you just sit and wait for some asshole to try.
Every thing in Ukraine stinks, and if its anything to do with dating women even more so.

A sad state of affairs ... :(
I support no government anywhere, ever, never. No institution, No religion!!

Offline Gipsy

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Re: Starting up in Ukraine
« Reply #37 on: September 27, 2016, 11:24:55 AM »
^Unless one has a "Roof" (ie, someone in a very high position, and a partner in the company), the business will not survive...
There is currently so much corruption in Ukraine that starting a business without protection is a big risk.
There are also restrictions on the manufacture of alcohol which will need to be addresses, such as "Customs bonded warehousing", and inclusion into the EU quota system..
Good Luck...
Bridge is a lot like sex, either you need a good partner, or a decent hand... Woody Allen

Offline Ste

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Re: Starting up in Ukraine
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2016, 01:47:14 PM »
^Unless one has a "Roof" (ie, someone in a very high position, and a partner in the company), the business will not survive...
There is currently so much corruption in Ukraine that starting a business without protection is a big risk.
There are also restrictions on the manufacture of alcohol which will need to be addresses, such as "Customs bonded warehousing", and inclusion into the EU quota system..
Good Luck...

Same is Russia tho to be fair, everyone I know there in business has a Krisha...

Corruption is rife in all spheres, just in some it's just at the top, in others it's at every level....
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Offline Texan77

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Re: Starting up in Ukraine
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2016, 03:30:06 PM »
Making a business in Ukraine! We advertise in Yandex.ru all ok no big problems.. THEN it comes to advertising in Yandex.ua    Its pretty well the usual Ukrainian story... forget about it! fake clicks/fake women/marriage agencies/other sites clicking your ads.. I think they have some set up like maybe 20 women working for them in some stupid sitting room and the boss says "When your home tonight girls I want each of you to click this link and make a fake profile"

Its so pathetic it is laughable..and its funny you can have a Russian site not really much trouble with web site hackers .. Ukrainian well you just sit and wait for some asshole to try.
Every thing in Ukraine stinks, and if its anything to do with dating women even more so.

A sad state of affairs ... :(

Steve I really think your problem with not being able to raise your rates and make any much money in the dating business has to do with your prejudges. I dated in the Ukraine and did not have such problem. No it was not prefect and yes I ran into some girls on the scam but you know if you are an older guy dating younger girls that happens every where including here. But there are real girls there that want to find a real man. You seem to be so clueless you do not even seem to understand what these girl are wanting in a man. Then you have a dis like for Americans and total hate for the USA this even narrows your market more. You might find some really classless person that does not notice but most of us will. Basically men from the USA date Ukrainians not Russians. If you do not like either how are you going to do well in this business? European tend to date Russian not Ukrainians though I have met Europeans in the Ukraine dating also.

At this point in time I have hired a number of Ukrainians to work on my girls flat. They all have work very hard for a very reasonable rate. I think I got ripped off less there than I would here. Sub contractor are not usually the countries most honest people. It is true that I have tried to hire photo editors and such and that really did not work out. It was so obviously that it was not going to work out I never hired any of them. But guess what, artist of all types including web site builders are among the most unreliable people you find in the USA also. The Ukraine is just not better. I have a good time when I go to the Ukraine and most of the people are usually very nice to me.

Online AvHdB

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Re: Starting up in Ukraine
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2016, 02:06:43 AM »
Making a business in Ukraine! We advertise in Yandex.ru all ok no big problems.. THEN it comes to advertising in Yandex.ua    Its pretty well the usual Ukrainian story... forget about it! fake clicks/fake women/marriage agencies/other sites clicking your ads.. I think they have some set up like maybe 20 women working for them in some stupid sitting room and the boss says "When your home tonight girls I want each of you to click this link and make a fake profile"

Its so pathetic it is laughable..and its funny you can have a Russian site not really much trouble with web site hackers .. Ukrainian well you just sit and wait for some asshole to try.
Every thing in Ukraine stinks, and if its anything to do with dating women even more so.

A sad state of affairs ... :(

Steve I really think your problem with not being able to raise your rates and make any much money in the dating business has to do with your prejudges. I dated in the Ukraine and did not have such problem. No it was not prefect and yes I ran into some girls on the scam but you know if you are an older guy dating younger girls that happens every where including here. But there are real girls there that want to find a real man. You seem to be so clueless you do not even seem to understand what these girl are wanting in a man. Then you have a dis like for Americans and total hate for the USA this even narrows your market more. You might find some really classless person that does not notice but most of us will. Basically men from the USA date Ukrainians not Russians. If you do not like either how are you going to do well in this business? European tend to date Russian not Ukrainians though I have met Europeans in the Ukraine dating also.

At this point in time I have hired a number of Ukrainians to work on my girls flat. They all have work very hard for a very reasonable rate. I think I got ripped off less there than I would here. Sub contractor are not usually the countries most honest people. It is true that I have tried to hire photo editors and such and that really did not work out. It was so obviously that it was not going to work out I never hired any of them. But guess what, artist of all types including web site builders are among the most unreliable people you find in the USA also. The Ukraine is just not better. I have a good time when I go to the Ukraine and most of the people are usually very nice to me.

Besides the rather painful hatred that Steve express towards all things Ukraine. I sort of wonder when was Steve's last visit to Ukraine.

There are two different 'economies' being discussed. Like Texan I have not had any problem working with individuals on the flat of my wife in Kiev. But I also suspect Tex as I am are very hands on and can figure things out on our own. Whether hanging wall paper, refinishing floors or installing items. Though I do not get involved with gas and electric installations, but the guys who have come for this sort of work have been professional and reasonable.

Panda is attempting or dreaming of starting an export business from Ukraine to the UK (I suspect England) it involves at least a couple million £. Whether he can get the venture up and running is another matter. Most of his expense will not be in Ukraine but most likely in the UK marketing. At this point I doubt he needs much of a 'roof' just common sense to get his product over the Channel. Can he loose his investment in Ukraine, yes. Can he make money in the UK perhaps. But I wonder does the UK need another vodka product?

BTW I’m looking forward to the next Civil War in the USA
 

Online andrewfi

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Re: Starting up in Ukraine
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2016, 04:40:55 AM »
The krysha might well take the form of a JV partner, as I noted above, without a person (or firm) who has the knowledge and contacts to get through the morass of formal and informal hindrances I'd bet that a venture will not succeed. At the same time that JV partner will likely become the source of the trouble that eventually either forces a loss of control or sufficient loss of money that the venture, from the perspective of the foreign investor, will fail.

This is not just a Ukraine thing, it is a business 'thing', albeit highlighted in sharp relief in Ukraine at this time. I am sure that Superpanda when he moves past the realm of informal desk research will be told pretty much what I, and others, have been telling him.
"For what else is the life of man but a kind of play in which men in various costumes perform until the director motions them offstage?" -Erasmus

Offline SuperPanda

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Re: Starting up in Ukraine
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2016, 10:45:23 AM »
So I'm back and firstly, outside of office work Kiev, St. Petes and Moscow are fantastic places to visit.

Secondly both are bloody logistical nightmares to set up any kind of business that involves what ours would. Financially both are more than suitable and are winners on that front however setup in order to be able to finance and export with as little hassle as possible is a nightmare and I didn't trust a single one of the people I met (bar my friends father who was supportive but advised me that it would be pointless if the market is in the UK).

I've listened to people out there, I had many conversations with my partner and the UK office and we all decided it isn't worth the ball ache at this time, while it socks financially in the UK, we'Lloyd be more confident of not losing the investment.

My main positives are that I met a beautiful girl called Alena and I'll be keeping in contact with her, that's for sure! I did enjoy ny trip outside of business and I must go back.

Online andrewfi

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Re: Starting up in Ukraine
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2016, 10:51:03 AM »
Desk research, wonderful thing, if you do it.
"For what else is the life of man but a kind of play in which men in various costumes perform until the director motions them offstage?" -Erasmus

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Re: Starting up in Ukraine
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2016, 10:40:44 AM »


My main positives are that I met a beautiful girl called Alena and I'll be keeping in contact with her, that's for sure! I did enjoy ny trip outside of business and I must go back.

Every cloud has a silver lining ? :)