Russian Athletes banned from Rio Olympics

[AKA Luke]

Have any other under 18s sporting teams had to pull out of competition recently for taking a banned substance to enhance performance anti diabetes drugs like meldoniem?

A decent Endo might help Russia out. Seems crazy these healthy young people are already pre diabetic/type 2 and being medicated. I thought it was the USandA that was fcuked!

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/russias-entire-under-18-hockey-team-replaced-after-failed-drug-tests/article29548447/?service=mobile

[andrewfi]

Thats a very smart new avatar..

 

[Danchik]

Though every competitor and the general public will know that a Russian medal given in Rio is tainted.

COMPLETE BULL SHITE

Of course its bullshit and just what we need, more anti-Russian bias that wouldn’t look out of place over at the other place – only thing missing is the celebrating smileys from AV’s post!!

Finally the voice of sanity.

Big time cheating deserves big time penalty. Put on your big boy pants.

Of course it’s not a bonus that it was them damn Russkis

It is quite obvious that Av has become nothing more than another Ukraine apologist. It's quite evident as his posts have become more and more anti-Russian over time.

To the point, if an athlete tests positive for banned drugs then that athlete should be banned, not the entire team, period. If an athlete refuses to test when called upon they too should be banned from competition. As someone who has competed in organized sports I know that a team always has alternates to fill any void left by anyone who can't, for whatever reason, fulfill their obligations.

Either a team uses an alternate who tests negative or leaves the place on the team void, but banning an entire team from competition because some members tested positive is unheard of ever in the history of the Olympics.

In the past whenever someone asked me about PED's in the Olympics, the first countries that came to mind were Germany and China.

To say this is not political is beyond naive. To think that Russia is the only country involved in juicing their athletes takes the naïveté to a whole other level.

Danchik, you are completely wrong and your post indicates that you have not made yourself familiar with the background, which is useful when discussing. If it was (only) individual athletes who tested positive, then it would be a different story. In this case however, the Russian sports administration blocked access to sport villages/centers for the WADA-test personnel, intimidated the test personnel, systematically manipulated samples and tests to make the outcomes favourable etc etc. The list is long, and actions from the Russian sport administration are well documented. Therefore, the punishment is not individual, but a collective one. It is 100% appropriate, but I agree with AvHdB that the ban most likely will be lifted by IOC sooner or later. It would be very unfortunate, but I think it will. Clearly, Russia is not the only sinner, and also athletes from other countries take drugs, but the scale of involvement from the official Russian sports administration is unprecedented (well, at least after the death of DDR) and very well documented. That is why action is taken against Russia, but not (for the moment) against other countries.

Of course, for some, this is another example of "everybody is against Russia and the West is only after sabotaging Russia etc".  It is impossible to discuss with such people, as they will spin everything in this direction, much like Putin and his crew.

NO, in your opinion I'm completely wrong.

First of all, the governing bodies overseeing these affairs should have taken action much sooner. That they waited until a month before the games is a classic case of the "tail wagging the dog". The IOC, WADA, and the IAAF knew about this years ago. That they knew and did nothing tells me they are just as complicit (i.e. turning a blind eye, taking bribes, not taking strong corrective action at the onset,  etc.) as the people suspected of taking and administering the banned substances. And this is the biggest problem I have with this whole affair; its timing.

Secondly, most the these drugs were created by Western scientists, so that in of itself should tell you how widespread this activity is. Doping has been going on forever and there have been scandals such as this in the past (e.g. The US team after the Salt Lake City Olympics just to name one) where little was made of it, and nothing happened to the athletes involved.

Lastly, IMO, you punish those involved; I am not my brother's keeper. That you disagree with this is just an opinion of yours that holds no more weight than my opinion except in your brainwashed mind. Procedures and protocol could have been established well before things got out of hand, and this issue would have corrected itself much sooner. I'm sure it will correct itself going forward to the degree that any athlete be held accountable. This is not a Russian specific event.

This situation has many layers, many you have failed to address, which is not unusual given anything to do with Russia. Some Russian athletes and trainers are absolutely guilty as charged. Let them deal with the consequences and not others who have trained their entire lives for this. This is a matter of opinion, mine, regardless of what your prejudices hold.

[andrewfi]

Here's an interesting article that casts events with the doping shite in a new light. CLICK HERE!

The writer looks at the overall ban in the context of numeric and objective comparisons to the rest of the world. When looking at his evidence it is clear that China and Russia have had a disproportionately large number of drug tests. It would seem, objectively, that these two countries have been targeted as a matter of policy.

What is clearly visible though is that the rate at which Russian athletes, in particular, fail these challenges is very far from being the worst.

There is no doubt that Russia has a problem with PEDs. However that can clearly be seen to be the case for many other countries, including the US and UK. One is forced to wonder how well those two countries would have stood up to a campaign of drug testing as severe as that which has been imposed upon Russia - roughly twice as many tests upon Russian athletes as compared to USAians, for example, where we already know that US sports have a huge problem with PEDs.

As a general principal, in my opinion, the action of banning a whole nation from competition is unjust. It is particularly so when that action is not carried out consistently. I have no doubt that this is a political act and that there will be consequences that will end up weakening international sports.

When reading the article above (probably in translation) ask yourself why it might be that Russia and China would be having drug testing performed at a rate double of that among other large nations and why it might be that nations with much worse records were not then investigated at a similar level to Russia or China. The reasons for the ban do not need much questioning when the numbers are considered.

[AKA Luke]

Though every competitor and the general public will know that a Russian medal given in Rio is tainted.

COMPLETE BULL SHITE

Of course its bullshit and just what we need, more anti-Russian bias that wouldn’t look out of place over at the other place – only thing missing is the celebrating smileys from AV’s post!!

Finally the voice of sanity.

Big time cheating deserves big time penalty. Put on your big boy pants.

Of course it’s not a bonus that it was them damn Russkis

It is quite obvious that Av has become nothing more than another Ukraine apologist. It's quite evident as his posts have become more and more anti-Russian over time.

To the point, if an athlete tests positive for banned drugs then that athlete should be banned, not the entire team, period. If an athlete refuses to test when called upon they too should be banned from competition. As someone who has competed in organized sports I know that a team always has alternates to fill any void left by anyone who can't, for whatever reason, fulfill their obligations.

Either a team uses an alternate who tests negative or leaves the place on the team void, but banning an entire team from competition because some members tested positive is unheard of ever in the history of the Olympics.

In the past whenever someone asked me about PED's in the Olympics, the first countries that came to mind were Germany and China.

To say this is not political is beyond naive. To think that Russia is the only country involved in juicing their athletes takes the naïveté to a whole other level.

Danchik, you are completely wrong and your post indicates that you have not made yourself familiar with the background, which is useful when discussing. If it was (only) individual athletes who tested positive, then it would be a different story. In this case however, the Russian sports administration blocked access to sport villages/centers for the WADA-test personnel, intimidated the test personnel, systematically manipulated samples and tests to make the outcomes favourable etc etc. The list is long, and actions from the Russian sport administration are well documented. Therefore, the punishment is not individual, but a collective one. It is 100% appropriate, but I agree with AvHdB that the ban most likely will be lifted by IOC sooner or later. It would be very unfortunate, but I think it will. Clearly, Russia is not the only sinner, and also athletes from other countries take drugs, but the scale of involvement from the official Russian sports administration is unprecedented (well, at least after the death of DDR) and very well documented. That is why action is taken against Russia, but not (for the moment) against other countries.

Of course, for some, this is another example of "everybody is against Russia and the West is only after sabotaging Russia etc".  It is impossible to discuss with such people, as they will spin everything in this direction, much like Putin and his crew.

NO, in your opinion I'm completely wrong.

Secondly, most the these drugs were created by Western scientists

Latvia is in the west?

Teams of 18 year olds failing drugs tests....1 wonders how such wide scale testing of Russia has come about.

[Tom Cat]

Doping Scandal Yet Another Example of Anti-Russian Double Standards

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/outrage-doping-scandal-yet-another-example-anti-russian-double-standard/ri15087

[bagalia]

Doping Scandal Yet Another Example of Anti-Russian Double Standards

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/outrage-doping-scandal-yet-another-example-anti-russian-double-standard/ri15087

RI seems to wish to create a scandal in regards to Russia getting tested more than other countries. They should instead be asking the specific laboratories that question.

WADA requires independent labs to do a minimum of 3000 tests per year or receive more scrutiny. Countries with larger teams and more entries should also have more testing but in the end it mostly depends on how developed the program is in the country.

So look to your own country for answers on that question.

IMO Russia has more testing because it looks good for Russia. More testing also means more money for some company and more bribery money within countries susceptible to bribery.

The independent council has acknowledged that good people end up with the short stick in their advising a blanket ban however after all the evidence was reviewed they concluded that this was just too massive for state not to know about it. The independent council also acknowledge that doping is a problem all over and they only had a narrow investigative mandate here.

On the good side, the Russian teams will not be banned as long as they can prove they have fixed the problems and get dope free. The criminal aspects to the case is another matter that may take more time.

WADA has a website with a huge question and answer section plus a news section with a 90 minute video of question and answer from international reporters to the independent council related to this particular subject.

[andrewfi]

Bagalia, if you look at the numbers you will see that you have been getting confused again. (yeah, it is easily done, numbers are hard!)

The point being made in the link I shared above is that not only are Russia and China being tested in a degree much greater than other countries, but that their 'failure rate' is actually low in comparison to other countries. That is, the testing is not justified by the results of the tests. The chances are that under higher scrutiny other countries' athletes would be expected to fail to a greater degree than they do now.

The examination of athletes from Russia and China is disproportionate to the 'size' of teams and to the level of abuse of PEDs. That is a choice made by those who decide where expensive testing resources are allocated and, because the choices do not reflect the objective situation in respect of PED abuse, demonstrates either incompetent management or a political motivation.

=================

In a seeming return to rationality it seems that the IOC is taking a more nuanced view of the situation. CLICK HERE! to learn more.

[AvHdB]

The use of PED's is a problem if you believe in a fair playing field, the abuse of these drugs is an epidemic and no more so than in Russia it seems. But what it sounds like many are saying Russia can continue to cheat.

The situation regarding Russian and PED's is so black and white and that it is little like looking at a plate of food that has fallen to the ground in a barn. Yes you can wipe it up and reserve it, yummy, . . . but. Does any one have common sense? Andrew's new post is little more of the same refuse. Curious though Danchik are you participating on that thread that Andrew posted to, a simple yes or no as an answer is enough.

For the good order this discussion regarding using and abusing PED's has been going on between the Russia sporting federation and both the WADA and Track and Field Federation for over a year. As I recall almost two years now. The Russian's have done nothing to cooperate or come clean. Sure some (Andrew) would spin it in a different light but instead of looking at simple facts and realities, they want to BS or perhaps they are Kremlin trolls.

Much to my surprise the IOC did not reverse the ban and it now is set in stone. As Leslie hinted at individual athletes who have in the past tested clean may compete is Rio so that allows those who have worked for the goal of a gold medal to pursue that dream.

Further Andrew hints that many of the drugs were invented in the US and tries, shift, who is responsible, this is also more Andrew nonsense. While the drugs may indeed may come from the US, there present use in Russia was not what they were formulated for. In fact the same holds true for Viagra which was formulated with an entirely different goal in mind.

My greater curiosity is Andrew why do you this? My read it only further erodes what marginal posting honesty that you have.

[bagalia]

Bagalia, if you look at the numbers you will see that you have been getting confused again. (yeah, it is easily done, numbers are hard!)

The point being made in the link I shared above is that not only are Russia and China being tested in a degree much greater than other countries, but that their 'failure rate' is actually low in comparison to other countries. That is, the testing is not justified by the results of the tests. The chances are that under higher scrutiny other countries' athletes would be expected to fail to a greater degree than they do now.

The examination of athletes from Russia and China is disproportionate to the 'size' of teams and to the level of abuse of PEDs. That is a choice made by those who decide where expensive testing resources are allocated and, because the choices do not reflect the objective situation in respect of PED abuse, demonstrates either incompetent management or a political motivation.

=================

In a seeming return to rationality it seems that the IOC is taking a more nuanced view of the situation. CLICK HERE! to learn more.

No Andrew, I pretty much agree with some of what you wrote. The only problem is that you think there is some higher authority causing more testing in certain countries.

Here, these are just two quotes among many that could be used from the WADA website. If you have a question why there are more tests taken in Russia or China or the USA then you should ask the individual labs. They are meant to work at capacity. The larger more advanced countries should show more testing.


[/quote]
7. Why is there a discrepancy in the number of samples analyzed by the different laboratories?

The number of samples analyzed by any particular laboratory depends primarily on the development of the national anti-doping program in the associated region. The number of international events hosted by the region, as well as the anti-doping programs associated with professional leagues and sports organizations outside of the Olympic movement, also play a role.

9. Do laboratories have to analyze a minimum number of samples?

The ISL requires that a WADA accredited laboratory performs analysis on a minimum of 3,000 (including urine and blood) samples per year. Any accredited laboratory that does not meet this figure is monitored closely by WADA.
[/quote]

Now if one lab is expected to pull 3000 samples a year then it is not so difficult to suggest that an advanced country, perhaps even one that has hosted an Olympics would have several.

The more testing you do the less scrutiny you will receive. It is to your countries benefit to test often.

The system is working just fine in Russia, China and America. We could be doing more though our violations are fewer. Many other countries need to catch up.

You see the countries who test the most and think foul play. I see the countries who test the least and think they need to be worked on. There cannot be too much testing.

[cufflinks]

One wonders how many other countries would fail should they be subject to the same extensive protocols used against Russia.  Answer - MANY.

If they are going to use enhanced testing protocols against Russia they should be applied equally to all countries including the lily pure USA - how many of our premier athletes have been busted for doping - many - the allure of endorsement contracts and sponsorships that can make one a multimillionaire are just too great for those that win it all being Olympic Gold.

[andrewfi]

Bagalia, look at the numbers I shared, read 'em and then get back to me. Do you honestly think that the US or UK have fewer testing labs than Russia?

REALLY, that's what you think?

Coz that's what you're telling us!

Then tell us why it would be that countries that have higher rates of drug testing failure have not suffered the same fate as Russia.
Do your REALLY think that there's nothing else going on here than a perfectly functioning system?

Coz that's what you're telling us!

Go look at the numbers, get your calculator out if you need it and inform yourself.

Bagalia, in life there's usually a reason for a pattern. There's a reason why, if it rains, it is Putin's fault!

[bagalia]

Bagalia, look at the numbers I shared, read 'em and then get back to me. Do you honestly think that the US or UK have fewer testing labs than Russia?

REALLY, that's what you think?

Coz that's what you're telling us!

Then tell us why it would be that countries that have higher rates of drug testing failure have not suffered the same fate as Russia.
Do your REALLY think that there's nothing else going on here than a perfectly functioning system?

Coz that's what you're telling us!

Go look at the numbers, get your calculator out if you need it and inform yourself.

Bagalia, in life there's usually a reason for a pattern. There's a reason why, if it rains, it is Putin's fault!

Don't know how simple I can make this for you Andrew.

WADA makes the international standards. NADO implements the standards within the individual countries.

From the NADO and WADA webpages:
"National Anti-Doping Organizations (NADOs) are Government-funded organizations responsible for testing national athletes in- and out-of-competition, as well as athletes from other countries competing within that nation’s borders; adjudicating anti-doping rules violations; and anti-doping education."

"governments can facilitate doping controls and support national testing programs; encourage the establishment of “best practice” in the labelling, marketing and distribution of products that might contain prohibited substances; withhold financial support from those who engage in or support doping;"

In simple words Andrew, Russia controls its testing program by funding and establishing the NADO within its borders. If you believe that Russia tests too much then talk to the Russian government about their policy of testing.

[AvHdB]

Andrew, what I do not understand is you give the impression that using PED's by Russian's is OK. It seems all the other posters on this thread have stated this is not acceptable. Really the big question is do those watching and competing want a level playing field?

If one studies how (in)frequently Russian athletes (but in fact it is not limited to Russia) fail out of country drug tests you might see a light go on. If you have one testing lab or a dozen in country this is not the issue.

And yes other sports are highly suspect, I would say in the United States one has only seen the top of the iceberg when it comes to professional sports, specifically Major League Base Ball. But again we are speaking about the Olympics so no reason to try to do a dodge or shuffle.



As for you new avatar, I cringed, I thought it was Ian Paisley at first. Now I just chuckle 

[AvHdB]

If it were about doping then a list of Russian Athletes who have recently failed drugs tests would be banned from competition - not the whole national team!!

It is about doping. Some 60 plus athletes from Russia will compete in Rio this year. They have repeatedly tested clean.

[andrewfi]

Bagalia,  I think you have been forgetting what you were writing about or,  at least,  not bothering to read what I was writing and simply imagining stuff.

The point I was making,  in simple terms,  just for you: the treatment meted out to Russia is not equal to the treatment meted out to other,  more offending, countries. The very fact that Russians are tested more meticulously than others makes exactly the point about this. The country that does more testing than anywhere else and has less failures per test than many other countries is accused of having a faulty testing regime and is banned, en masse from entering under the Russian flag in track and field.

If having a rigorous testing regime is evidence of fault then Russia should follow the US model and test less.

Who orders the tests was never my point,  you chose to invent it because you did not understand how the numbers were presented or what they were telling the numerate reader.

[AvHdB]

Bagalia,  I think you have been forgetting what you were writing about or,  at least,  not bothering to read what I was writing and simply imagining stuff.

The point I was making,  in simple terms,  just for you: the treatment meted out to Russia is not equal to the treatment meted out to other,  more offending, countries. The very fact that Russians are tested more meticulously than others makes exactly the point about this. The country that does more testing than anywhere else and has less failures per test than many other countries is accused of having a faulty testing regime and is banned, en masse from entering under the Russian flag in track and field.

If having a rigorous testing regime is evidence of fault then Russia should follow the US model and test less.

Who orders the tests was never my point,  you chose to invent it because you did not understand how the numbers were presented or what they were telling the numerate reader.

Andrew, try again or find your crayons.

The testing that has allowed the competitors, Russian, to compete was done out of country. This same standard applies to all other countries.

For the good order if one studies the statics that Andrew posted Russia (for a variety of reasons) fields more competitors. The issues that Andrew refuses to address are drugs, good or bad. Is the in country testing of Russia adequate.

My opinion, drugs are bad and the evidence points to an epic Chernobly failure of the Russian track and field 'federation'. These issues came to light after the Winter Olympics in Socchi and worked there way through the various sporting authorities. If Russia had cleaned up its act the reality today would be different.

[andrewfi]

AvHdB, for YOUR assistance, I have not suggested taking drugs was OK. You have made that suggestion for me.

As it is obvious that you, as with Bagalia prefer to have a discussion without benefit of actually reading the primary sources, or if reading, not understanding, it is rather like trying to teach a cat to play fetch. In the short term it is fun, longer term it gets boring really fast.

Let us try this for you, in simple words, without numbers and with simple concepts - as if for a bright 5 year old: It does not really matter where tests are carried out. Bagalia was raising that point, not I. Do you understand? I merely pointed out that, if as he suggested, the testing was at the behest of Russian officials that this is not congruent with a lax testing regime.

Russia is far from being the worst offender in respect of infractions but is treated very differently to all other countries. This suggests that Russia has been targeted for such treatment, otherwise Ukraine, United States and others would be excluded from the event.
Here's a little thought experiment for your 5 year old mind: If two sets of athletes have the same failure rate in testing would it seem reasonable that the outcome of those failures should be the same? Yes, or No?

If you think 'no' then please explain, objectively, why discrimination is appropriate.

Is that easy enough for you?

[AvHdB]

Andrew, easy enough for you?

Andrew, keep on trying, I looked at the sources with some one who particpated first as a competitor and than a coach in Olympic events. And the reality is black and white. Only are trying dodge the reality.

It is about a simple reality Russia had an epic PED meltdown. This has come back to bite them and you are the sore loser. Please move on.

THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION.

[AvHdB]

If two sets of athletes have the same failure rate in testing would it seem reasonable that the outcome of those failures should be the same?

You would not reply regarding PED's are acceptable and now this. Please Andrew stop, I respect you but this eroding confidence. The entire discussion is becoming stupid. You can not be so challenged to understand that Russian athletes (and those of other countries) have failed out of country testing repeatedly. Your bull shit and whinging is pathetic.

Please study (add up) the numbers and after you get your socks back on please let RUA know.

[bagalia]

The point I was making,  in simple terms,  just for you: the treatment meted out to Russia is not equal to the treatment meted out to other,  more offending, countries.

The whole investigation began with a Russian whistle blower.

The independent council found that doping was state sponsored. If it were only individuals then individuals would be penalized. Nobody said that other countries don't have doping problems. It was in fact said that this is only the tip of the iceberg worldwide. The difference here is that this investigation started with a Russian athlete whistle blower. You can disagree with the result but it is pretty cut and dry.

The very fact that Russians are tested more meticulously than others makes exactly the point about this. The country that does more testing than anywhere else and has less failures per test than many other countries is accused of having a faulty testing regime and is banned, en masse from entering under the Russian flag in track and field.

Russians are tested more often because Russia set up the schedule. It has already been noted that more testing equals less scrutiny. It is to Russia's benefit to test more often but it is assumed that all will be handled honestly.

Russia is a corrupt country. You know this as well as anyone. Russia is corrupt, Moldova, Ukraine and any other country in that sphere is corrupt. The Olympics are extremely important to Russia. You may wish to say this is opinion but I would like to hear from you that it is untrue so I can have a good laugh.

So if a corrupt state wishes to dope say 100 out of 1000 athletes and does 500 tests it will look bad. If it tests 8000 it will look better and at 14000 it will seem minuscule.

If having a rigorous testing regime is evidence of fault then Russia should follow the US model and test less.

That would look rather bad as noted above.

Who orders the tests was never my point,  you chose to invent it because you did not understand how the numbers were presented or what they were telling the numerate reader.

Yes, it was a half of your point. They are tested too much and the penalty is not proportionate is the whole point. You can argue the latter if you wish.

[bagalia]

https://wada-main-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/resources/files/20160718_ip_report_final3.pdf

Just to put things where they belong, the WADA report is out, all 97 pages. It can be repetitious reading but for those who like minutia and the full accounts of what, when and who, it could be the perfect stocking stuffer. For others it will be better than sleepy time tea after a long day.

Liar, Liar, pants on fire. This scam was going a long time and they put a lot of effort into it. The country will be lucky if they only ban half the athletes. All is not lost though as table tennis remains one of the most clean sports of the lot.

[froid]

Supposed to be hearing the results of Russia's appeal for the Track and Field ban on Thursday.  And then a final decision on Sunday regarding the whole team.  My wife's take on it all..."Well this is old news why is everyone surprised?".   

[AvHdB]

The recent news is not good news.

There are clean Russian athletes, who have passed, international tests with no red flags. To punish this group is sad. They have often devoted more than ten years of there lives to reach this pinnacle.

On the other side there is no more doubt at a lower level the use of PED's was systemic.

When I wrote that I doubted that Russia was on an organized level running a sporting organization that abused PED's I really could not fathom this in early 2016. The reality though there are those who see prestige in Olympic medals even if they are obtained unfairly. Will heads roll in Moscow yes but not at the proper places.

[Cobaka]

 I have yet to read story one on how much better prepared Russia was over Rio. Russia was hammered and in my opinion Rio's best day is going to have more health and violence concerns for the athletes and visitors by a factor of probably 100.