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Author Topic: If I disliked Russia I would be an enthusiastic Putin supporter like you.  (Read 19163 times)

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Offline Anteros

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Ant and AvhDb, you could both benefit from learning a little for yourselves about recent history in Russia.
Fantasy only gets you so far before your 'analysis' becomes risible and makes it much harder to give credence to that which you tell us in other areas where you might actually know something.

It is common knowledge that Mikhail Khodorkovsky was put in prison on trumped up charges because he had the courage to offer the Russian people an alternative to Putin.  While democracy in the USA has peculiarities and is not perfect, at least we don't have a Dictator for life who puts political opponents in prison, or worse, such as the assassination of Boris Nemtsov.

Using the great circle route, Anty gets to the core issue.

The West has a tortured political system where the leaders are usually held accountable.

Russia has a political system where torture is common and there is no accountabilty.

Andy, Let's just say you are both biased and naive. Perhaps you should live in North Korea? Please let us know how that goes. Av

His style of endlessly blind propaganda would certainly fit with North Korea!   :ROFL:
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

Offline Orchid

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Ant and AvhDb, you could both benefit from learning a little for yourselves about recent history in Russia.
Fantasy only gets you so far before your 'analysis' becomes risible and makes it much harder to give credence to that which you tell us in other areas where you might actually know something.

It is common knowledge that Mikhail Khodorkovsky was put in prison on trumped up charges because he had the courage to offer the Russian people an alternative to Putin.  While democracy in the USA has peculiarities and is not perfect, at least we don't have a Dictator for life who puts political opponents in prison, or worse, such as the assassination of Boris Nemtsov.

Using the great circle route, Anty gets to the core issue.

The West has a tortured political system where the leaders are usually held accountable.

Russia has a political system where torture is common and there is no accountabilty.

Andy, Let's just say you are both biased and naive. Perhaps you should live in North Korea? Please let us know how that goes. Av

His style of endlessly blind propaganda would certainly fit with North Korea!   :ROFL:

He, probably, has already spent some time in Cambodia.
Never know...
We all have our secrets....   :ROFL:  :ROFL:

Offline Manny

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The West has a tortured political system where the leaders are usually held accountable.

Were Blair and GWB held accountable for their war crimes?
Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<< - Read a trip report from South Korea, China and Hong Kong >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.


Offline yankee

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The West has a tortured political system where the leaders are usually held accountable.

Were Blair and GWB held accountable for their war crimes?

The winners are never guilty
What is worse than not being able to get what you don't even want?

Offline Anteros

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The West has a tortured political system where the leaders are usually held accountable.

Were Blair and GWB held accountable for their war crimes?

Collateral damage in a war does not meet the definition for war crimes.  George W. Bush made his case for the Iraqi invasion and war in front of the United Nations prior to commencing that war.  With 20/20 hindsight we can see that the evidence was flawed.  Tony Blair IIRC also made his case in front of the British Parliament.  If I get the terms wrong, it's obvious I am not a UK citizen.

The point is that both leaders made their case, both to the public and to governing bodies. 

When George W. Bush had finished serving his two terms as President, he left office.  Tony Blair also left office per the terms of the British Constitution.

Vladimir Putin is still in power more than 16 years later.  Vladimir Putin committed carpet bombing and other real war crimes in Chechnya.  Vladimir Putin did not make his case for war at the United Nations.  He simply did it: in Chechnya, in Georgia, in Ukraine and now in Syria.  In Syria hospitals have been bombed.  His guy Assad used chemical weapons against men, women and children.  His guy Assad used barrel bombs against men, women and children.

There is no evidence that GWB or Tony Blair committed war crimes.  OTOH there is clear evidence that Putin did in Chechnya and Assad did in Syria.

The best proof, again, of one being a regime (Putin) and in the West not a regime, is that in the West they leave office.  They don't put competitors in prison (like Khodorkovsky) or assassinate them (like Nemtsov and the KGB fellow poisoned with Polonium in London).

Yes Putin was a strong leader in the beginning and likely what Russia needed.  He got lucky that Russia had the oil and natural gas boom.  He shot himself in the foot after that and perhaps he's been in power too long.  The Russian economy will likely get worse due to Putin's missteps and hubris.  The Russian people are who is going to suffer, and if you really care about Russia, that's a bad thing.
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

Offline Wiz

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It does not seem strange to me at all.
Statistics does not work in a country striving on fear.
There was time in Russia, when children thanked Stalin for happy childhood watching their parents being shot by government.
Majority of population supported Stalin creating the Evil Empire.

Putin is not as bad as Stalin, but.......
You can finish this thought for me.

...... I would like to know how would you run the country that was near to starvation, after the collapse of the USSR, when he took over and what else would you do differently to reach this state of development?

It was not Putin. It was Gorbachov and Eltzin.
It was a time of bazaar economics and politics with hunger and tanks on Moscow streets.
Majority of Russians fell into complete poverty, some of them became incredibly wealthy.

I completed the point you made about "Putin" and "Stalin" ... I described the situation (at the time,) in two words and asked your opinion of what else you would do in his position?

Like most of the people here, I know the historical events that took place during that time but you decided to ignore my question and instead you gave me a lecture for the same things that I described in two words. Thank you for the education.


PS: Don't forget that he has to deal not only with external enemies but also with the internal 5th Phalange of the Neoliberal Atlantists too.
 Anyway nobody can match the US perfect Democracy especially when they never had one to taste it!

Exactly!!! Take a look on Russian history. Russia never had a Democracy. Never ever.
Russian people have no idea what is a real Democracy.
That's why a long standing dictatorship is possible there.

You seem to have missed my sarcasm about the "US perfect Democracy", obviously your opinions and views are not formulated from the same images and news we watch daily in our screens. The loss of freedoms imposed to the US public and the daily killings of people by your police do not count. In Russia it's a dictatorship, but in America it's the PERFECT DEMOCRACY!
Take a good look at the current elections taking place and you may learn something.

Why the sun does not shine on the Ex- British Empire Anymore? Because God never trusted an Englishman in the dark!

Offline Anteros

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Thank you.  Some people are so blind that they cannot see the obvious.

They will have to open their eyes when provocative Putin will cross the last red line.
They will have to openly say they support Putin or their Queen.
I bet It will be Queen.

Yes it will be very interesting: if Putin stays in power and he keeps provoking the West until a confrontation ensues, will the members of the board who are UK citizens support the UK or a despotic dictator?   :popcorn:
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

Offline Wiz

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Thank you.  Some people are so blind that they cannot see the obvious.

They will have to open their eyes when provocative Putin will cross the last red line.
They will have to openly say they support Putin or their Queen.
I bet It will be Queen.

Yes it will be very interesting: if Putin stays in power and he keeps provoking the West until a confrontation ensues, will the members of the board who are UK citizens support the UK or a despotic dictator?   :popcorn:

Anteros

Russia and Putin are not those who keep provoking the other side but it is the US and it's NATO Allies who quietly and secretly deploy many 1000's of troops near the Russian frontiers on a daily basis and for what purpose do you think?

Your Neoliberals who running the show they are pushing for a war, they need regime change in Russia as they know that is the only way to save your economy that is going down the pun.

In this country we have a much better democracy than your "F... PERFECT ONE" and we are allowed to demonstrate and express our opposition to government decisions.... without been shot by our police, as it is the case in the US.

Time for you to get out, from your house, have a drink and find some one to have a good fun and a good lay, as AV dreams....... I t will make you the "world of good" and maybe your brain will start working again! The hours you spend on the PC is not healthy!
Why the sun does not shine on the Ex- British Empire Anymore? Because God never trusted an Englishman in the dark!

Offline Steveboy

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Thank you.  Some people are so blind that they cannot see the obvious.

They will have to open their eyes when provocative Putin will cross the last red line.
They will have to openly say they support Putin or their Queen.
I bet It will be Queen.

Yes it will be very interesting: if Putin stays in power and he keeps provoking the West until a confrontation ensues, will the members of the board who are UK citizens support the UK or a despotic dictator?   :popcorn:

I would not support the UK in any way.. If there was a confrontation I will stand with Russia!! :smoking:

So best keep out of my backyard >:( 

That means should you step un invited into our Russian home or Moldovan home , as Liam Neilson said in "Taken" I will find you and I will kill you... :laugh:
I support no government anywhere, ever, never. No institution, No religion!!

Offline Wiz

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It does not seem strange to me at all.
Statistics does not work in a country striving on fear.
There was time in Russia, when children thanked Stalin for happy childhood watching their parents being shot by government.
Majority of population supported Stalin creating the Evil Empire.

Putin is not as bad as Stalin, but.......
You can finish this thought for me.

...... I would like to know how would you run the country that was near to starvation, after the collapse of the USSR, when he took over and what else would you do differently to reach this state of development?

It was not Putin. It was Gorbachov and Eltzin.
It was a time of bazaar economics and politics with hunger and tanks on Moscow streets.
Majority of Russians fell into complete poverty, some of them became incredibly wealthy.


PS: Don't forget that he has to deal not only with external enemies but also with the internal 5th Phalange of the Neoliberal Atlantists too.
 Anyway nobody can match the US perfect Democracy especially when they never had one to taste it!

Exactly!!! Take a look on Russian history. Russia never had a Democracy. Never ever.
Russian people have no idea what is a real Democracy.
That's why a long standing dictatorship is possible there.

Orchid well put!  tiphat And I thought it was Jason Bourne & James Bond on the streets of Russia

Why is it that a woman can see the reality so clearly and a bunch of pundits can I only come up with brain farts?

You still have not learn to read correctly our messages. Obviously you need a good taken care instead of dreaming......you are going.... blind.  :laugh:
Why the sun does not shine on the Ex- British Empire Anymore? Because God never trusted an Englishman in the dark!

Offline Orchid

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You still have not learn to read correctly our messages. Obviously you need a good taken care instead of dreaming......you are going.... blind.  :laugh:

   :o  What the animal is this?  :o

Offline Manny

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if Putin stays in power and he keeps provoking the West

Wow, that never happened! Clearly a Fox news devotee.  :ROFL:
Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<< - Read a trip report from South Korea, China and Hong Kong >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.

Offline Anteros

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Thank you.  Some people are so blind that they cannot see the obvious.

They will have to open their eyes when provocative Putin will cross the last red line.
They will have to openly say they support Putin or their Queen.
I bet It will be Queen.

Yes it will be very interesting: if Putin stays in power and he keeps provoking the West until a confrontation ensues, will the members of the board who are UK citizens support the UK or a despotic dictator?   :popcorn:

I would not support the UK in any way.. If there was a confrontation I will stand with Russia!! :smoking:

So best keep out of my backyard >:( 

That means should you step un invited into our Russian home or Moldovan home , as Liam Neilson said in "Taken" I will find you and I will kill you... :laugh:

 :laugh:

Let's hope cooler heads prevail.  Last thing the World needs is another war.  (Seriously now)
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

Online AvHdB

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You still have not learn to read correctly our messages. Obviously you need a good taken care instead of dreaming......you are going.... blind.  :laugh:

Wiz,

Not entirely sure who you wish to address a Cloggie or an Orchid?

Perhaps when you have graduated grammar school and spend some time writing in English, you will be able to communicate in this language. If you can take any classes on social skills please do as well. As Andy reminds us English is a tricky language. Do you need any books of H. Potter to assist you, in fact you remind me a naughty bunny.

As for blind since I recognized a previously unknown painting by an important artist, I doubt being blind is an issue for me. As for some being intentionally stupid that seems to be a serious issue for some pundits of RUA.

Perhaps we can move back to issues rather than denial and insults?

Av
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

Offline Anteros

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If Hillary wins I expect a rough relationship with Putin's Russia.  Thankfully, that's a very big if, as in HUGE:laugh:

I expect Trump will do his best to deal with the wiley Putin in a diplomatic and mutually respectful way.  My belief is that either Clinton or Trump will insist Russia get OUT of Eastern Ukraine and pay part of the costs for rebuilding, in exchange for recognizing Crimea as now being part of Russia.

What do the pundits think of this idea?
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

Offline Wiz

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You still have not learn to read correctly our messages. Obviously you need a good taken care instead of dreaming......you are going.... blind.  :laugh:

   :o  What the animal is this?  :o

That comment was not directed to you........but to AV and his last comment!
Why the sun does not shine on the Ex- British Empire Anymore? Because God never trusted an Englishman in the dark!

Offline Wiz

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You still have not learn to read correctly our messages. Obviously you need a good taken care instead of dreaming......you are going.... blind.  :laugh:

Wiz,

Not entirely sure who you wish to address a Cloggie or an Orchid?

Perhaps when you have graduated grammar school and spend some time writing in English, you will be able to communicate in this language. If you can take any classes on social skills please do as well. As Andy reminds us English is a tricky language. Do you need any books of H. Potter to assist you, in fact you remind me a naughty bunny.

As for blind since I recognized a previously unknown painting by an important artist, I doubt being blind is an issue for me. As for some being intentionally stupid that seems to be a serious issue for some pundits of RUA.

Perhaps we can move back to issues rather than denial and insults?

Av

Well I was right in the first place.... that you don't read our messages correctly.

 :offtopic:
It's becoming boring to come here and daily read the same tripe. Russia is bad, Putin is a dictator and so on and on like a broken record. Watching US TV or the BBC it's the same propaganda.

Don't worry about my education.....worry about you dreaming about.....it!

As to who is stupid on international affairs ... I let the other's to judge.

Time to do something more interesting than argue here with brainwashed people.

Back on Topic. now
Why the sun does not shine on the Ex- British Empire Anymore? Because God never trusted an Englishman in the dark!

Offline Wiz

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If Hillary wins I expect a rough relationship with Putin's Russia.  Thankfully, that's a very big if, as in HUGE:laugh:

I expect Trump will do his best to deal with the wiley Putin in a diplomatic and mutually respectful way.  My belief is that either Clinton or Trump will insist Russia get OUT of Eastern Ukraine and pay part of the costs for rebuilding, in exchange for recognizing Crimea as now being part of Russia.

What do the pundits think of this idea?

Whoever becomes a president .... it will be the same old story.

In your comments you forgot to take into consideration the pentagon and the army suppliers that keep the US economy moving!

The Wall Street does not produce any added value for your GDP, only spread debt around the globe.

Why Russia should pay for reparations in East Ukraine when it is your stooge Poroshenko together with the CIA director J. Brennan, who started bombing Dombass and killed 1000's innocent people.

Russia is paying already the price by accepting over a million refuges from that part of Ukraine!

The US create the mess around the world...... invade, bomb and destroy countries but.... never pay.

Watch the NATO deployment in Eastern Europe...... and see what is coming next! :smokin:
 
Why the sun does not shine on the Ex- British Empire Anymore? Because God never trusted an Englishman in the dark!

Offline Manny

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Tony Blair IIRC also made his case in front of the British Parliament.

There are some details here on this: http://www.arrestblair.org/blairs-crimes
Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<< - Read a trip report from South Korea, China and Hong Kong >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.

Offline rosco

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The West has a tortured political system where the leaders are usually held accountable.

Were Blair and GWB held accountable for their war crimes?

Collateral damage in a war does not meet the definition for war crimes.  George W. Bush made his case for the Iraqi invasion and war in front of the United Nations prior to commencing that war.  With 20/20 hindsight we can see that the evidence was flawed.  Tony Blair IIRC also made his case in front of the British Parliament.  If I get the terms wrong, it's obvious I am not a UK citizen.

The point is that both leaders made their case, both to the public and to governing bodies. 

When George W. Bush had finished serving his two terms as President, he left office.  Tony Blair also left office per the terms of the British Constitution.

Vladimir Putin is still in power more than 16 years later.  Vladimir Putin committed carpet bombing and other real war crimes in Chechnya.  Vladimir Putin did not make his case for war at the United Nations.  He simply did it: in Chechnya, in Georgia, in Ukraine and now in Syria.  In Syria hospitals have been bombed.  His guy Assad used chemical weapons against men, women and children.  His guy Assad used barrel bombs against men, women and children.

There is no evidence that GWB or Tony Blair committed war crimes.  OTOH there is clear evidence that Putin did in Chechnya and Assad did in Syria.

The best proof, again, of one being a regime (Putin) and in the West not a regime, is that in the West they leave office.  They don't put competitors in prison (like Khodorkovsky) or assassinate them (like Nemtsov and the KGB fellow poisoned with Polonium in London).

Yes Putin was a strong leader in the beginning and likely what Russia needed.  He got lucky that Russia had the oil and natural gas boom.  He shot himself in the foot after that and perhaps he's been in power too long.  The Russian economy will likely get worse due to Putin's missteps and hubris.  The Russian people are who is going to suffer, and if you really care about Russia, that's a bad thing.

Some of what you say is true however;

1) One mans collateral damage is another mans murder. Are 26 middle eastern lives less important than say 1 american life? Collateral damage is a term coined to take the reality out of a horrific situation and used by folks hoping to justify war crimes. "Our drone bombed a building holding a wanted terrorist but 9 women and children were present" - Oh that'll be collateral damage....thats ok because they're not as important as us Americans.

2) You might want to double check who approved sending Libya's sarin gas to Syrian rebels.....your old pal Hilary seems to crop up but thats right....lets blame Assad. Have you also considered why Obama didn't get involved after 'they crossed the line'? Oh yea....those damn facts again. 

Online AvHdB

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Whoever becomes a president .... it will be the same old story.

In your comments you forgot to take into consideration the pentagon and the army suppliers that keep the US economy moving!


I suspect you are largely correct, a prior president warned about this.


The Wall Street does not produce any added value for your GDP, only spread debt around the globe.


Amusing stupidity, but some one has to earn some bread. Certainly would not like to see Wall Street types repairing the sewers.


Why Russia should pay for reparations in East Ukraine when it is your stooge Poroshenko together with the CIA director J. Brennan, who started bombing Dombass and killed 1000's innocent people.

Russia is paying already the price by accepting over a million refuges from that part of Ukraine!


This has been discussed elsewhere on RUA, and while I doubt the numbers Mark presented, in total there might be and it is a big might a million who have fled, the majority to Kiev, still the capital of Ukraine. A country that Putin would like to absorb. Since Putin's actions have destroyed this region the Kremlin should indeed pay for the repairs.

It seems your selfish ego is greater than Presidential hopefuls. Why do you not run for Parliment you can rant there. Or RUA can take a collection up and buy you a better soap box for you to moan and groan on. The weather is getting better so enjoy the views.

The US create the mess around the world...... invade, bomb and destroy countries but.... never pay.

If you look at foreign aid and compare Russia's to the United States you will see that the US spends more. In fact just a wee bit more than the rest of the world combined. Because you did not get any change is not my problem. Maybe you can say you are a native of Somalia who is Jewish and are a cross dresser, with gender issues. In fact this would not surprise anyone on RUA if this was the truth & who knows what Uncle Sam might give you.

Watch the NATO deployment in Eastern Europe...... and see what is coming next! :smokin:

4,000 soldiers rotating in and out on a monthly basis in Eastern Europe. What is the problem? I sort of doubt anyone in the Kremlin is worried, but it keeps allot of reporters trolls busy.

This is my attempt at a Cuffy rant, I feel I need to keep on practicing.
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

Offline Steveboy

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Thank you.  Some people are so blind that they cannot see the obvious.

They will have to open their eyes when provocative Putin will cross the last red line.
They will have to openly say they support Putin or their Queen.
I bet It will be Queen.

Yes it will be very interesting: if Putin stays in power and he keeps provoking the West until a confrontation ensues, will the members of the board who are UK citizens support the UK or a despotic dictator?   :popcorn:

I would not support the UK in any way.. If there was a confrontation I will stand with Russia!! :smoking:

So best keep out of my backyard >:( 

That means should you step un invited into our Russian home or Moldovan home , as Liam Neilson said in "Taken" I will find you and I will kill you... :laugh:

 :laugh:

Let's hope cooler heads prevail.  Last thing the World needs is another war.  (Seriously now)

Governments always need wars secretly its a way to cull the population and kind of start again.. As Adolf so many times said "Its good for governments that the people do not think"

History has been repeating it's self for thousands of years I don't see any changes in the near future.. on that basis some time in the future there will probably be another world 3. Maybe not in the next few years but sure at some point..

Im sure as usual it will be the stupid people who pay the ultimate price... its life!

I support no government anywhere, ever, never. No institution, No religion!!

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AvHdB, you DO know how US foreign aid works don't you?

No, probably not. You probably have the misinformed notion that it is a form of charity designed to enrich and enlighten people in poorer places. Don't worry, lots of Americans think that and then get a surprise when they do some learning.

By the way, how do you manage to be so misinformed as to think that Russia has any desire to 'take over' Ukraine?

Might I commend you to read about the reunification of East and West Germany and the costs incurred upon the German economy and people. When you have understood the magnitude of such an undertaking you might want to apprise yourself of the basics of the Russian economy so that you can understand how such a feat is entirely outside the envelope of Russian capabilities.

AvHdB, try to think for yourself rather than accept the programming of others :)
...everything ends always well; if it’s still bad, then it’s not the end!

Offline Anteros

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AvHdB, you DO know how US foreign aid works don't you?

No, probably not. You probably have the misinformed notion that it is a form of charity designed to enrich and enlighten people in poorer places. Don't worry, lots of Americans think that and then get a surprise when they do some learning.

By the way, how do you manage to be so misinformed as to think that Russia has any desire to 'take over' Ukraine?

Might I commend you to read about the reunification of East and West Germany and the costs incurred upon the German economy and people. When you have understood the magnitude of such an undertaking you might want to apprise yourself of the basics of the Russian economy so that you can understand how such a feat is entirely outside the envelope of Russian capabilities.


That's right it did cost West Germany a ton of money because everything the former Soviet Union and Vlad touches turns to sh*t.

In regards to it being a feat "entirely outside of the envelope of Russian capabilities" maybe Russia should stop invading and destroying their neighbors territories and worry about fixing their own internal problems.  :'(
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

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AvHdB, you DO know how US foreign aid works don't you?

No, probably not. You probably have the misinformed notion that it is a form of charity designed to enrich and enlighten people in poorer places. Don't worry, lots of Americans think that and then get a surprise when they do some learning.

By the way, how do you manage to be so misinformed as to think that Russia has any desire to 'take over' Ukraine?

Might I commend you to read about the reunification of East and West Germany and the costs incurred upon the German economy and people. When you have understood the magnitude of such an undertaking you might want to apprise yourself of the basics of the Russian economy so that you can understand how such a feat is entirely outside the envelope of Russian capabilities.


That's right it did cost West Germany a ton of money because everything the former Soviet Union and Vlad touches turns to sh*t.

In regards to it being a feat "entirely outside of the envelope of Russian capabilities" maybe Russia should stop invading and destroying their neighbors territories and worry about fixing their own internal problems.  :'(

Do you drink during the day?  ;D
I support no government anywhere, ever, never. No institution, No religion!!


 

 

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