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Author Topic: Nato & The Iron Curtain...  (Read 354 times)

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Offline Gipsy

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Nato & The Iron Curtain...
« on: April 17, 2016, 09:28:25 AM »
Recommend the reading of this first, especially the first paragraphs, which explain what Nato was formed for, its from their own website, its pretty factual, but with some good PR included..

http://www.nato.int/history/nato-history.html

as you will read, it was formed to achieve 3 main purposes,
1, deterring Soviet expansionism,
2, forbidding the revival of nationalist militarism in Europe through a strong North American presence on the continent,
3, and encouraging European political integration

So far so good.

What it does not state, is that the original plan was for NATO to be under the UN umbrella, but due to uS pressure, it was agreed to use NATO as a separate organisation to run side by side with, but free from the UN as the Soviets hold a UN veto mandate.

It is more than possible IMHO, that if NATO had been under the UN, that the USSR (at the time), could have been included and become a major player in Nato and there would have been much less problem today.

If they had concentrated more upon items 2 & 3 above, IMHO, we would not be in the current situation of posturizing between them and the Soviets/Russians.

Under item 1, Nato is too weak, and weak willed to do any thing other than posturize, it needs around a 50% internal expansion before it could resemble a force to be able to frighten the bear if it awakens, and by this I mean not 50% more monetary investment, I mean a 50% enlargement of its manpower and equipment, which the current members do not wish to commit to.

For many years, Nato's role, should the USSR wish to expand west wards, was to slow the advance down for long enough for high level talks to begin and a ceasefire agreed, in them days it was calculated that 4 weeks would be all what was needed before the bear was washing its feet in the North Sea.

Todays Nato, would possible achieve similar results, but most war-game scenario's show the bear washing its feet in the North sea in under 4 weeks.

All of these scenario's were based upon the non-use of Nukes, which most military strategists seem to agree that the Bear would initially only use conventional methods.

Please note, much of the above is fact, some of it is my own personal opinion..

(Next up, The Iron Curtain).


Offline Gipsy

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Re: Nato & The Iron Curtain...
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2016, 10:13:20 AM »
The Iron Curtain.

As has already been pointed out, the origins of The Iron Curtain date back many years and were mainly in reference to, for example, a fire proof Iron Curtain to protect an audience in a theatre.

Who actually used the terminology in relation to the USSR is unclear, but many credit Sir Winston Churchill.

Actually, all the terminology means (Quote)
Throughout the Cold War the term "curtain" would become a common euphemism for boundaries – physical or ideological – between communist and capitalist states.

To explain how the situation came about, one has to go back in time to a few weeks before the German capitulation, at this point in the war, the USSR were about 100km from Berlin to the east, and the Allies were about 200km to the west having recently crossed the Elbe river (about in line with a N-S line drawn on a map from Luebeck- the Czechoslovakian borders. It was at this point where Eisenhower stopped the allies advance (stop losing men), and allowing the Soviets to continue the fight for Berlin.

Following the German capitulation, the Potsdam conference was held whereby lands/areas won by the respective forces were assigned to and agreed to each victor, the Potsdam Conference was followed shortly after by the Yalta Conference where the final decisions/touch ups were made.

The result of these agreements, was basically that, the line draw where the allies advance was put on hold, became just about the division between east and west, (or thereabouts) .

Where, IMHO everything went wrong, was that the persons negotiating these agreements were doing it too soon after the end of the war, they should have first taken the time to think about the consequences of their actions, and what these actions would bring to the future, not 1 year hence, but 20,30,50 years.

Those involved in the negotiations were also the wrong people, again IMHO, they failed to recognise the various cultures/desires/moods of each other, they were all really unwilling to form a more reasonable agreement based on the various occupied countries populations needs/wishes, the Soviets especially, Stalin could not return home and tell his countrymen/women, that he had given lands in which much blood was shed back to the original owners, he did not wish to take the risk of anyone attempting to overrun the Soviet lands again.

This all became the "status quo" unfortunately, the Allies had no wish to argue nor continue the war and fight the Soviets, the US wanted the Soviets to continue attacking Japan (As agreed in Potsdam), and Stalin was in no mood to agree to anything but retention of all lands won by the Soviets..

Sad really, as there was a lost opportunity with these conferences, AND with the formation later of NATO..

Some of what is written here is fact, and some is my own opinion..

Offline Anteros

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Re: Nato & The Iron Curtain...
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2016, 10:15:38 AM »
That's right USA wisely didn't want useless UN interference in NATO.  We should also leave the UN or at the very least take Russia off of the security part of it.  Russia breaks International Law with impunity and then whines about Sanctions (Putin complaining of a boy with a dunce cap or whatever comes to mind).

What was the vote on the resolution to condemn the illegal theft of Crimea?  Of course it was because of US pressure, right?

If WWII had been fought on American soil and it had been Russia who had sent Billions in war material and millions of men to save us, they could have war drills off of our soil after we had set up an iron curtain over Canada and Mexico, etc. but of course that never happened, now did it?

Europe wants to remain free of Russian hedgemony and they partner with the US to achieve it.  Simples.
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.


Offline Gipsy

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Re: Nato & The Iron Curtain...
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2016, 10:35:22 AM »
That's right USA wisely didn't want useless UN interference in NATO.  We should also leave the UN or at the very least take Russia off of the security part of it.  Russia breaks International Law with impunity and then whines about Sanctions (Putin complaining of a boy with a dunce cap or whatever comes to mind).

You really do have tunnel vision..
Open your eyes, and expand your mind more.
Look at every situation from all sides of the equation.

What was the vote on the resolution to condemn the illegal theft of Crimea?  Of course it was because of US pressure, right?

Of course it was, all achieved by financial clout..
What about the resolution to the illegal failed invasion of Cuba, and the subsequent occupation of Guantanamo bay by the US, which the Soviets complained about to the UN but didn't even get to be voted upon due to US pressures.
We won't even mention Hawaii.

If WWII had been fought on American soil and it had been Russia who had sent Billions in war material and millions of men to save us, they could have war drills off of our soil after we had set up an iron curtain over Canada and Mexico, etc. but of course that never happened, now did it?

Billions $ in war loans which the UK is STILL paying for to its so called friend and ally.

Europe wants to remain free of Russian hedgemony and they partner with the US to achieve it.  Simples.

Your patriotism does you proud, but it is clouding your judgement. IMHO

Offline Wiz

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Re: Nato & The Iron Curtain...
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2016, 12:03:49 PM »
That's right USA wisely didn't want useless UN interference in NATO.  We should also leave the UN or at the very least take Russia off of the security part of it.  Russia breaks International Law with impunity and then whines about Sanctions (Putin complaining of a boy with a dunce cap or whatever comes to mind).

You really do have tunnel vision..
Open your eyes, and expand your mind more.
Look at every situation from all sides of the equation.
Gipsy
Well done for the 2 articles above for Nato and Iron Curtain! :thumbsup:

You are wasting your time, in trying to educate a brainwashed ignorant person and teach him to make objective comments.

What was the vote on the resolution to condemn the illegal theft of Crimea?  Of course it was because of US pressure, right?

Of course it was, all achieved by financial clout..
What about the resolution to the illegal failed invasion of Cuba, and the subsequent occupation of Guantanamo bay by the US, which the Soviets complained about to the UN but didn't even get to be voted upon due to US pressures.
We won't even mention Hawaii.

You are not seriously suggesting that the US used the same tactic, as when Larry Summers and Tim Geithner they were negotiating the new Financial Service Agreement in the WTO  in Geneva in 2000? They blackmailed the 152 member states to sign it otherwise their exports to the US will be blocked. Even China had to sign and Honduras was told if they don't agree they can give their bananas to the Monkeys!

If WWII had been fought on American soil and it had been Russia who had sent Billions in war material and millions of men to save us, they could have war drills off of our soil after we had set up an iron curtain over Canada and Mexico, etc. but of course that never happened, now did it?

Billions $ in war loans which the UK is STILL paying for to its so called friend and ally.

Corection, The UK paid in full all war Loans on the 29 December 2006 and Russia paid the final payment in 2001.

Europe wants to remain free of Russian hedgemony and they partner with the US to achieve it.  Simples.

You are talking bollocks.......Europe is a large client for gas and oil to Russia but the US want to the EU to sign the TTIP so its corporations to take over Europe at will.

The lies behind this transatlantic trade deal-TTIP
"For every beauty there is an eye to see it. For every truth there is an ear to hear it."


Offline Gipsy

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Re: Nato & The Iron Curtain...
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2016, 12:33:33 PM »
^^Correction, The UK paid in full all war Loans on the 29 December 2006

Thank you for that, I did not know that the debt has been repaid..

^^You are not seriously suggesting that the US used the same tactic, as when Larry Summers and Tim Geithner they were negotiating the new Financial Service Agreement in the WTO  in Geneva in 2000?


There has been unofficial suggestions that the US used  financial pressures.

Offline Anteros

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Re: Nato & The Iron Curtain...
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2016, 04:08:41 PM »
That's right USA wisely didn't want useless UN interference in NATO.  We should also leave the UN or at the very least take Russia off of the security part of it.  Russia breaks International Law with impunity and then whines about Sanctions (Putin complaining of a boy with a dunce cap or whatever comes to mind).

You really do have tunnel vision..
Open your eyes, and expand your mind more.
Look at every situation from all sides of the equation.
Gipsy
Well done for the 2 articles above for Nato and Iron Curtain! :thumbsup:

You are wasting your time, in trying to educate a brainwashed ignorant person and teach him to make objective comments.

The only consistently ignorant person of this forum is you wiz.  Your lack of knowledge of WWII history is appalling, such as your lack of knowledge of Soviet cooperation with Nazi Germany prior to operation Barbarossa. 

As Dogsoldier correctly pointed out nearly every bit of information you have is simply copy and paste from questionable web sites.  So far just a bunch of loony conspiracy sites, and consistently myopic thinking in regards to alleged Zionist banking conspiracies. 

I will engage with Gipsy if I have time or feel like it.

Personal Insult deleted - Leslied
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

Offline Anteros

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Re: Nato & The Iron Curtain...
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2016, 04:20:18 PM »
That's right USA wisely didn't want useless UN interference in NATO.  We should also leave the UN or at the very least take Russia off of the security part of it.  Russia breaks International Law with impunity and then whines about Sanctions (Putin complaining of a boy with a dunce cap or whatever comes to mind).

You really do have tunnel vision..
Open your eyes, and expand your mind more.
Look at every situation from all sides of the equation.

What was the vote on the resolution to condemn the illegal theft of Crimea?  Of course it was because of US pressure, right?

Of course it was, all achieved by financial clout..
What about the resolution to the illegal failed invasion of Cuba, and the subsequent occupation of Guantanamo bay by the US, which the Soviets complained about to the UN but didn't even get to be voted upon due to US pressures.
We won't even mention Hawaii.

If WWII had been fought on American soil and it had been Russia who had sent Billions in war material and millions of men to save us, they could have war drills off of our soil after we had set up an iron curtain over Canada and Mexico, etc. but of course that never happened, now did it?

Billions $ in war loans which the UK is STILL paying for to its so called friend and ally.

Europe wants to remain free of Russian hedgemony and they partner with the US to achieve it.  Simples.

Your patriotism does you proud, but it is clouding your judgement. IMHO

The enormous amount of war material the USA provided in an amazingly small amount of time was blood, sweat, toil and families torn asunder due to lack of normal quality family time as our women were often back here working in factories which operated 24/7 while our men, having nothing to do with yet another war caused by the spoiled children of Europe (who B/B has properly said need adult supervision on a regular basis) had to travel 6 to 8 to 10 thousand miles or more and fight in two different war arenas. 

I am personally an isolationist and nationalist and don't give a rats ass about Europeans as we consistently read nothing but garbage from the likes of you.

Anyways of course we're going to expect financial recompense for our enormous efforts.  And of course since we invested what we invested we're going to be involved, whether your puppet masters there in Russia like it or not.

I don't see any real benefit in engaging with you much more as in your bizarre World white is black and black is white.

Personal insult deleted Leslied
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

Offline Anteros

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Re: Nato & The Iron Curtain...
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2016, 04:41:36 PM »
Recommend the reading of this first, especially the first paragraphs, which explain what Nato was formed for, its from their own website, its pretty factual, but with some good PR included..

http://www.nato.int/history/nato-history.html


"but with some good PR included..."   Sure Comrade.  I would say that you are the one engaging in some good public relations, as you conveniently left out this part (a lie of omission committed deliberately)

"In addition, Communists aided by the Soviet Union were threatening elected governments across Europe. In February 1948, the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia, with covert backing from the Soviet Union, overthrew the democratically elected government in that country. Then, in reaction to the democratic consolidation of West Germany, the Soviets blockaded Allied-controlled West Berlin in a bid to consolidate their hold on the German capital. The heroism of the Berlin Airlift provided future Allies with some solace, but privation remained a grave threat to freedom and stability".


Well you did very good overall "Gipsy" but for me your gig is up.
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

Offline Gipsy

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Re: Nato & The Iron Curtain...
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2016, 11:51:46 AM »
That's right USA wisely didn't want useless UN interference in NATO.  We should also leave the UN or at the very least take Russia off of the security part of it.  Russia breaks International Law with impunity and then whines about Sanctions (Putin complaining of a boy with a dunce cap or whatever comes to mind).

You really do have tunnel vision..
Open your eyes, and expand your mind more.
Look at every situation from all sides of the equation.

What was the vote on the resolution to condemn the illegal theft of Crimea?  Of course it was because of US pressure, right?

Of course it was, all achieved by financial clout..
What about the resolution to the illegal failed invasion of Cuba, and the subsequent occupation of Guantanamo bay by the US, which the Soviets complained about to the UN but didn't even get to be voted upon due to US pressures.
We won't even mention Hawaii.

If WWII had been fought on American soil and it had been Russia who had sent Billions in war material and millions of men to save us, they could have war drills off of our soil after we had set up an iron curtain over Canada and Mexico, etc. but of course that never happened, now did it?

Billions $ in war loans which the UK is STILL paying for to its so called friend and ally.

Europe wants to remain free of Russian hedgemony and they partner with the US to achieve it.  Simples.

Your patriotism does you proud, but it is clouding your judgement. IMHO

The enormous amount of war material the USA provided in an amazingly small amount of time was blood, sweat, toil and families torn asunder due to lack of normal quality family time as our women were often back here working in factories which operated 24/7 while our men, having nothing to do with yet another war caused by the spoiled children of Europe (who B/B has properly said need adult supervision on a regular basis) had to travel 6 to 8 to 10 thousand miles or more and fight in two different war arenas. 

I am personally an isolationist and nationalist and don't give a rats ass about Europeans as we consistently read nothing but garbage from the likes of you.

Anyways of course we're going to expect financial recompense for our enormous efforts.  And of course since we invested what we invested we're going to be involved, whether your puppet masters there in Russia like it or not.

I don't see any real benefit in engaging with you much more as in your bizarre World white is black and black is white.

Personal insult deleted Leslied

I was born within the sound of the Bow bells my friend FYI, of pure English stock...

Offline Gipsy

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Re: Nato & The Iron Curtain...
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2016, 11:56:42 AM »
Recommend the reading of this first, especially the first paragraphs, which explain what Nato was formed for, its from their own website, its pretty factual, but with some good PR included..

http://www.nato.int/history/nato-history.html


"but with some good PR included..."   Sure Comrade.  I would say that you are the one engaging in some good public relations, as you conveniently left out this part (a lie of omission committed deliberately)

"In addition, Communists aided by the Soviet Union were threatening elected governments across Europe. In February 1948, the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia, with covert backing from the Soviet Union, overthrew the democratically elected government in that country. Then, in reaction to the democratic consolidation of West Germany, the Soviets blockaded Allied-controlled West Berlin in a bid to consolidate their hold on the German capital. The heroism of the Berlin Airlift provided future Allies with some solace, but privation remained a grave threat to freedom and stability".


Well you did very good overall "Gipsy" but for me your gig is up.

It was there for everyone to read, nothing was omitted as you put it.

This horrendous act, was one of the reasons why I stated that, IMHO, the Potsdam and Yalta agreements were no good agreements, as there were already suspicions by the allies, that something along these lines could/would occur.