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Author Topic: Exporting an icon - hand luggage or checked baggage?  (Read 795 times)

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Offline Beaglerx2

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Exporting an icon - hand luggage or checked baggage?
« on: April 03, 2016, 05:29:05 PM »
Forgive my typing I am in a train isle way trying to keep a charge as I type.

 So I ran across an older icon at an open air marker in Kiev. It is the box type with glass. Yeah it looks pretty old but I think the image is a print, not a painting, certainly an old production type and I gave like 15 used for it. I know I might have a problem flying out of Kiev so I wonder if the bigger risk is to put it in my checked bag which would almost certainly cause damdage to the tender frail metal parts of the inner frame or try to walk it through in carry on, which would get more scrutiny?

Any experience or obeservation on th topic?

Maybe I will pos a pc of I just fo conversation sake. (After I take one)

Offline Anteros

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Re: Exporting an icon - hand luggage or checked baggage?
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2016, 05:42:24 PM »
Forgive my typing I am in a train isle way trying to keep a charge as I type.

 So I ran across an older icon at an open air marker in Kiev. It is the box type with glass. Yeah it looks pretty old but I think the image is a print, not a painting, certainly an old production type and I gave like 15 used for it. I know I might have a problem flying out of Kiev so I wonder if the bigger risk is to put it in my checked bag which would almost certainly cause damdage to the tender frail metal parts of the inner frame or try to walk it through in carry on, which would get more scrutiny?

Any experience or obeservation on th topic?

Maybe I will pos a pc of I just fo conversation sake. (After I take one)

There's probably only 1 man who had experience with religious icon's but he has left the forum due to the Ukraine versus Russia division.  I would love to see a photo of it, hope you post it.
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Offline Slumba

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Re: Exporting an icon - hand luggage or checked baggage?
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2016, 11:36:00 PM »
Post a pic; but it is is not actually painted on, probably you won't have problems. Anything made post-WW2 approximately, won't trigger any antiquities laws.
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Offline Manny

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Re: Exporting an icon - hand luggage or checked baggage?
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2016, 01:53:56 AM »
Most of the icons one finds in markets and the like are fake, or not as old as claimed at least. That said, in a corrupt country, it makes one ripe for a bribe on exit. I would wrap it up in the middle of my checked luggage probably.

Offline Chris

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Re: What are the odds it goes through?
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2016, 01:57:52 AM »
Forgive my typing I am in a train isle way trying to keep a charge as I type.

 So I ran across an older icon at an open air marker in Kiev. It is the box type with glass. Yeah it looks pretty old but I think the image is a print, not a painting, certainly an old production type and I gave like 15 used for it. I know I might have a problem flying out of Kiev so I wonder if the bigger risk is to put it in my checked bag which would almost certainly cause damdage to the tender frail metal parts of the inner frame or try to walk it through in carry on, which would get more scrutiny?

Any experience or obeservation on th topic?

Maybe I will pos a pc of I just fo conversation sake. (After I take one)

I've taken many things back home, mostly in hand luggage, many years ago when buying art from galleries I used to go through all the trouble of obtaining the correct certification and such like, it didn't cost much but was a right pain to do, many trips to different offices and banks to arrange, then I gave up doing that and just took a risk, was never stopped and had no problems, as its probably a fake anyway or at least of little historic value, I would just take a risk, either hide it wrapped up in towels etc in your hold baggage or take it in your carry on bag and be prepared to answer any questions if stopped, carry receipts and such like with you, I would be surprised if you had any problems.

Online andrewfi

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Re: Exporting an icon - hand luggage or checked baggage?
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2016, 03:49:55 AM »
If you only paid $15 for it then it is not worth anything more than that and probably less.

If it looks printed (has dots in the image) then you can be sure of it.

If you are lucky(?) it will be as good as a colour photocopy/scan from something real. Unlucky and it will be a a page from a book. :)

"For what else is the life of man but a kind of play in which men in various costumes perform until the director motions them offstage?" -Erasmus

Offline Danchik

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Re: What are the odds it goes through?
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2016, 05:36:15 AM »
Forgive my typing I am in a train isle way trying to keep a charge as I type.

 So I ran across an older icon at an open air marker in Kiev. It is the box type with glass. Yeah it looks pretty old but I think the image is a print, not a painting, certainly an old production type and I gave like 15 used for it. I know I might have a problem flying out of Kiev so I wonder if the bigger risk is to put it in my checked bag which would almost certainly cause damdage to the tender frail metal parts of the inner frame or try to walk it through in carry on, which would get more scrutiny?

Any experience or obeservation on th topic?

Maybe I will pos a pc of I just fo conversation sake. (After I take one)

I've taken many things back home, mostly in hand luggage, many years ago when buying art from galleries I used to go through all the trouble of obtaining the correct certification and such like, it didn't cost much but was a right pain to do, many trips to different offices and banks to arrange, then I gave up doing that and just took a risk, was never stopped and had no problems, as its probably a fake anyway or at least of little historic value, I would just take a risk, either hide it wrapped up in towels etc in your hold baggage or take it in your carry on bag and be prepared to answer any questions if stopped, carry receipts and such like with you, I would be surprised if you had any problems.
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Online yankee

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Re: Exporting an icon - hand luggage or checked baggage?
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2016, 12:53:15 PM »
try contacting the owner of this museum as he found most if his icons in russia and Ukraine.

museumofrussianicons.org
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Offline Beaglerx2

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Re: Exporting an icon - hand luggage or checked baggage?
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2016, 02:14:39 AM »
No it is not a fake or the effort would be the work of a master. I tried to post a pic but it was too big and I can't seem to resize it on my iPad.

I bought the icon at a place few tourist would know about ....one of those market where plumbing fittings and old clothes are sprawled about. Old guy on the bus leaving there mentioned another similar one but I have,t found or looked for it yet.

There are lots of fake stuff about notably nazi passports and insignias etc. years ago I did buy a panzer badge and it is real, though at the time of sale I had no idea.
When I looked on eBay I noticed the price of soviet badges has seemed to dropped since I bought one years ago, no doubt the market is a bit flooded by FSU sellers in the eBay game now.
I ended up buying this old smaller suitcase for two bucks as the icon was too big. It is a charming old suitcase if it survives the trip I may resell it on eBay or keep it as a novelty.

Offline Beaglerx2

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Re: Exporting an icon - hand luggage or checked baggage?
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2016, 02:45:49 AM »
Most icons come in three popular forms
.wooden board covered in metal with open areas for painting of hands and face below to show,
.basic picture frame with image or painting.
.hinged or closed box.  With icon and inner frame.



To add more detail on why I believe it to be real is- the box is dovetailed at joints not mittered, back panel is of raised panel solid wood not flat stock or plywood.
Contents inside surrounding image is very detailed thin metal or foil with flowers made or dried.

Andrewfi may be right, worth may be what I paid for it 15. I saw a matching pair in some shop in Lviv for maybe 50. Both authentic though not in great shape, I don,t think there is a big market of buyers to buy items too big to come back in a suitcase.

Yesterday I was taken to a place an hour outside of Kramatorsk (long bumpy bus ride too) some monastery. They had a gift shop with many new icons and just a handful of pricy older ones, they were the sheet metal variety and more difficult to evaluate the honesty of age.
 I suspect they were real, if they have a guy hand crafting fakes why not make brand new ones for the bulk of visitors .......Russian speakers, they are not interested in old stuff but might buy a new silver sheet (tooled) icon? Instead most of what the sell are printed fake embossed paper places in a standard picture frame with a bit larger wood frame around that.

Ok gotta run someone just returned from market.
Even if it were a crea Ted fake it would be worth that.

Online andrewfi

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Re: Exporting an icon - hand luggage or checked baggage?
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2016, 03:46:51 AM »
You mentioned that it might be printed. Dots give the game away.

I'd be very surprised if it were 'real' or had value.

Fakes have their own worth, often not money though.

For example, I have a gold plated Leica. When I bought it I knew it was fake but I paid €200 for it anyway.
Why?

The thing was interesting. There's loads of these fake Leica things. Loads of Americans buy them thinking they are genuine. A few years ago collectors and dealers were getting fooled by these.

Well, mine was a fake of a fake and a little unusual. It was made from a pre war Russian  camera that was a direct copy of the camera it was remsnufactured to emulate.
That is to say that my camera was a pre war Russian Fed 1, a copy of a Leica 2. Much later it was turned into a gold plated Leica 2 with WW2 Luftwaffe markings.

Most of these are made with much more recent versions of the Fed and other 'donors'.

Money value, much less than I paid. Curiosity value to blokes interested in the minutae is great because it is a rare thing.

A question that I never answered though, how did an 'old' fake end up in a small shop in Tallinn. That's just not the way these things get to market. ;)

"For what else is the life of man but a kind of play in which men in various costumes perform until the director motions them offstage?" -Erasmus

Online AvHdB

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Re: Exporting an icon - hand luggage or checked baggage?
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2016, 05:42:35 AM »
Most icons come in three popular forms
.wooden board covered in metal with open areas for painting of hands and face below to show,
.basic picture frame with image or painting.
.hinged or closed box.  With icon and inner frame.

To add more detail on why I believe it to be real is- the box is dovetailed at joints not mittered, back panel is of raised panel solid wood not flat stock or plywood.
Contents inside surrounding image is very detailed thin metal or foil with flowers made or dried.

Andrewfi may be right, worth may be what I paid for it 15. I saw a matching pair in some shop in Lviv for maybe 50. Both authentic though not in great shape, I don,t think there is a big market of buyers to buy items too big to come back in a suitcase.

Yesterday I was taken to a place an hour outside of Kramatorsk (long bumpy bus ride too) some monastery. They had a gift shop with many new icons and just a handful of pricy older ones, they were the sheet metal variety and more difficult to evaluate the honesty of age.
 I suspect they were real, if they have a guy hand crafting fakes why not make brand new ones for the bulk of visitors .......Russian speakers, they are not interested in old stuff but might buy a new silver sheet (tooled) icon? Instead most of what the sell are printed fake embossed paper places in a standard picture frame with a bit larger wood frame around that.

Ok gotta run someone just returned from market.
Even if it were a crea Ted fake it would be worth that.

In some respects it is not fair to call the ikon a fake. It is more likely a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy. Whether it was made by monks is another matter. Solid wood and mitered boxes are all easy to do today in Ukraine. In Ukraine the aging and giving a realistic patina is almost an art form with regards to ikons. If it is a painted print than it best is described as a $15,= piece of kitsch.

The tricky bit is when an old but highly damaged ikon is used as a foundation to make a a forgery, even experts have a difficult time sometimes seeing the difference. There was a rather public debate regarding an Ikon at the TEFAF three years ago where the dealer and different members of vetting committe could not concur.

In your situation do not say anything to customs wrap it up in your suitcase and when you get home you have a nice story. I unfortunately do not have that luxury.
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

Offline Beaglerx2

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Re: Exporting an icon - hand luggage or checked baggage?
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2016, 05:20:37 PM »
Most icons come in three popular forms
.wooden board covered in metal with open areas for painting of hands and face below to show,
.basic picture frame with image or painting.
.hinged or closed box.  With icon and inner frame.

To add more detail on why I believe it to be real is- the box is dovetailed at joints not mittered, back panel is of raised panel solid wood not flat stock or plywood.
Contents inside surrounding image is very detailed thin metal or foil with flowers made or dried.

Andrewfi may be right, worth may be what I paid for it 15. I saw a matching pair in some shop in Lviv for maybe 50. Both authentic though not in great shape, I don,t think there is a big market of buyers to buy items too big to come back in a suitcase.

Yesterday I was taken to a place an hour outside of Kramatorsk (long bumpy bus ride too) some monastery. They had a gift shop with many new icons and just a handful of pricy older ones, they were the sheet metal variety and more difficult to evaluate the honesty of age.
 I suspect they were real, if they have a guy hand crafting fakes why not make brand new ones for the bulk of visitors .......Russian speakers, they are not interested in old stuff but might buy a new silver sheet (tooled) icon? Instead most of what the sell are printed fake embossed paper places in a standard picture frame with a bit larger wood frame around that.

Ok gotta run someone just returned from market.
Even if it were a crea Ted fake it would be worth that.

In some respects it is not fair to call the ikon a fake. It is more likely a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy. Whether it was made by monks is another matter. Solid wood and mitered boxes are all easy to do today in Ukraine. In Ukraine the aging and giving a realistic patina is almost an art form with regards to ikons. If it is a painted print than it best is described as a $15,= piece of kitsch.

The tricky bit is when an old but highly damaged ikon is used as a foundation to make a a forgery, even experts have a difficult time sometimes seeing the difference. There was a rather public debate regarding an Ikon at the TEFAF three years ago where the dealer and different members of vetting committe could not concur.

In your situation do not say anything to customs wrap it up in your suitcase and when you get home you have a nice story. I unfortunately do not have that luxury.

I think that's exactly at I will do, put it in checked luggage and hope for the best.

I've used the term icon because it is the commonly used lingo, my knowledge on the topic is almost nothing beyond a general observation. (Just to be clear).

Offline Beaglerx2

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Re: Exporting an icon - hand luggage or checked baggage?
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2016, 05:22:32 PM »
One more attempt at an upload.

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Re: Exporting an icon - hand luggage or checked baggage?
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2016, 12:53:00 AM »
One more attempt at an upload.

The work is closer in spirit to folk art. I suspect the frame is tin and made up moldings from rooms. It is in fact sort charming. The use of the flowers I have seen before in Ukrainian art. My guess is the image of Christ is indeed a print or post card. I would guess the item is from 40 to 70 years old.
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