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Author Topic: Russia toughens currency exchange rules  (Read 1035 times)

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Offline Orchid

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Russia toughens currency exchange rules
« on: December 27, 2015, 01:59:00 AM »
Russian government wants to know about all currency exchanges more than 15,000Rub. It’s about $200.
New rules start working today.
Next step will be to notify Russian government in underwear change.... I guess...

http://www.pravdareport.com/news/russia/25-12-2015/132955-russia_currency_exchange-0/

https://news.mail.ru/economics/24397612/?frommail=1

Online Markje

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Re: Russia toughens currency exchange rules
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2015, 04:01:34 AM »
Russian government wants to know about all currency exchanges more than 15,000Rub. It’s about $200.
New rules start working today.
Next step will be to notify Russian government in underwear change.... I guess...

http://www.pravdareport.com/news/russia/25-12-2015/132955-russia_currency_exchange-0/

https://news.mail.ru/economics/24397612/?frommail=1
Right, except most countries have this by law. So Russia is just using the same rules everybody else uses.

Netherlands has for instance the law on 'suspicious money transfer' , but how it is deemed 'suspicious' is not clear.

If you suddenly get gifts over Eur 10.000 is deemed 'suspicious' , if you suddenly have more than Eur 500,- in Foreign currency.. etc.

Oh and if you buy something with Cash over Euro 15.000, the seller is required to photocopy your legal passport / legal ID-card and keep that copy for 5 years for government inspection.

And thats just netherlands, I am sure other countries do the same.

Mark.
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Online andrewfi

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Re: Russia toughens currency exchange rules
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2015, 04:35:15 AM »
Mark is right. This is about reducing the size of the black economy and increasing the tax base (number of tax payers) that's why the limit is set as it is.

As some might recall, up until a decade ago the dollar was effectively a shadow currency in Russia. Those days are gone but there are many non ruble transactions carried out and these almost certainly are not recorded for tax purposes. Recording conversion at a 'retail' level provides, initially, data about some of these transactions and later on will enable tax enforcement. 
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Offline Orchid

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Re: Russia toughens currency exchange rules
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2015, 12:09:10 PM »
Russian government wants to know about all currency exchanges more than 15,000Rub. It’s about $200.
New rules start working today.
Next step will be to notify Russian government in underwear change.... I guess...

http://www.pravdareport.com/news/russia/25-12-2015/132955-russia_currency_exchange-0/

https://news.mail.ru/economics/24397612/?frommail=1
Right, except most countries have this by law. So Russia is just using the same rules everybody else uses.

Netherlands has for instance the law on 'suspicious money transfer' , but how it is deemed 'suspicious' is not clear.

If you suddenly get gifts over Eur 10.000 is deemed 'suspicious' , if you suddenly have more than Eur 500,- in Foreign currency.. etc.

Oh and if you buy something with Cash over Euro 15.000, the seller is required to photocopy your legal passport / legal ID-card and keep that copy for 5 years for government inspection.

And thats just netherlands, I am sure other countries do the same.

Mark.

Do numbers matter for you?
Do you know difference between  Euro 15.000 and $200?
You think it is civilized way to keep records of all $200 exchanges? Really?
It is just price of one night in a good hotel, or price of one my textbook at school....
By the way, it becomes a real fun to know ahead response to my posts...  :laugh:

Offline Orchid

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Re: Russia toughens currency exchange rules
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2015, 12:10:00 PM »

Offline Manny

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Re: Russia toughens currency exchange rules
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2015, 12:39:15 PM »
Russian government wants to know about all currency exchanges more than 15,000Rub. It’s about $200.
New rules start working today.

If you change cash in the UK above [I think] £500 (about $700) you must show some ID and it is recorded. When you look at respective spending power of Joe Soap between here and Russia, its about the same I reckon. I bet you cant change too much cash in the US without it being recorded for the IRS.

They will want to start gathering data on who is buying what currency in any quantity as well, that will help with planning to extend Rouble use and de-dollarise.

Nothing too onerous I think. They wont be bothered about some bloke changing a bunch of Roubles for his holiday in Turkey. Egypt. Greece, unless of course, as alluded to above, he is changing too many on money that is not taxed.

The thing about Russia is people are critical of the corruption, bad practice and the black economy, but when they make a positive change like this, they are criticised for that too. Increasing accountability and collecting taxes also means loss of some kind of freedoms or privacy. As anyone in Europe or the US knows only too well.
I apologise.
And so he should.........

Offline WestCoast

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Re: Russia toughens currency exchange rules
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2015, 12:53:06 PM »
Russian government wants to know about all currency exchanges more than 15,000Rub. It’s about $200.
New rules start working today.

If you change cash in the UK above [I think] £500 (about $700) you must show some ID and it is recorded. When you look at respective spending power of Joe Soap between here and Russia, its about the same I reckon. I bet you cant change too much cash in the US without it being recorded for the IRS.

Transactions of more than $10,000 must be reported to the IRS. Just a little more than £500.  :laugh: $10,000 Canadian in Canada to be reported to Canada Revenue Agency.

Ipsa scientia potestas est. Knowledge itself is power.   Sir Francis Bacon

Offline Manny

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Re: Russia toughens currency exchange rules
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2015, 01:06:51 PM »
Russian government wants to know about all currency exchanges more than 15,000Rub. It’s about $200.
New rules start working today.

If you change cash in the UK above [I think] £500 (about $700) you must show some ID and it is recorded. When you look at respective spending power of Joe Soap between here and Russia, its about the same I reckon. I bet you cant change too much cash in the US without it being recorded for the IRS.

Transactions of more than $10,000 must be reported to the IRS. Just a little more than £500.  :laugh: $10,000 Canadian in Canada to be reported to Canada Revenue Agency.

Native English speakers will understand the difference between 'recorded' and 'reported'.

The $10k (or local currency equivalent) limit for tax authority reporting is pretty standard worldwide in the first world and much of the second. An international banker would know that.

Read the links Orchid posted; it seems quite reasonable and a step forward. One of the links explains it is to dissuade people from converting currency to hoard (which damages the economy) and bolster the Rouble by increasing confidence in it. Not to mention being a tool in the box of fighting terrorism and general fraud and tax evasion.

If Russia scrapped all reporting requirements the international press would all howl they were aiding an abetting terrorism. By imposing similar rules to the EU they are somehow draconian? Doesn't really work that logic does it?

As the Russian economy grows and develops, the government will bit by bit introduce rules that are more in line with other European economies and generally accepted good practice. Wait till they start with KYC rules; that will knock some shady Ivans for six.

Even with reporting requirements in the west, most adopt a a "file and forget" policy. The chances of a transaction being dredged up for scrutiny are minimal. I've done plenty of six figure £ translations and the bank only wants to write something in a box like "property transaction" or "business import of stock". The thing about more reporting is it takes more staff to read them and choose which ones to question. So in practical terms it makes little difference as trigger-happy bank staff (who fear for their jobs) start to report EVERYTHING as suspicious, and they get overwhelmed. Even what is called "structuring" in the US is hard to spot. Again, an international banker knows all this stuff, right Westy?
I apologise.
And so he should.........

Offline Orchid

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Re: Russia toughens currency exchange rules
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2015, 01:09:29 PM »
Russian government wants to know about all currency exchanges more than 15,000Rub. It’s about $200.
New rules start working today.

If you change cash in the UK above [I think] £500 (about $700) you must show some ID and it is recorded.

Nothing wrong with showing ID. We show ID even when we enter a bar or buy alcohol.
In this case bank must fill out a document with address and "ИНН". It is like SSN in the US. It gives you access to full information about person.

that will help with planning to extend Rouble use and de-dollarise.

Really? $200 transactions can affect macroeconomics of Russia? What is microeconomics in this case?

The thing about Russia is people are critical of the corruption, bad practice and the black economy, but when they make a positive change like this, they are criticised for that too.

$200 transactions have nothing to do with  the corruption, bad practice and the black economy.

Increasing accountability and collecting taxes also means loss of some kind of freedoms or privacy.

That's why I vote for documenting an underwear change!! Very effective measure in de-dollarisation.
At least American men will lose all their dollars.... :hidechair:





Offline Orchid

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Re: Russia toughens currency exchange rules
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2015, 01:15:30 PM »
Native English speakers will understand the difference between 'recorded' and 'reported'.

I am not a Native English speaker, but it took not very long time to learn that everything reported is recorded in the USA.  :sick0012:

Offline WestCoast

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Re: Russia toughens currency exchange rules
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2015, 01:46:54 PM »
Russian government wants to know about all currency exchanges more than 15,000Rub. It’s about $200.
New rules start working today.

If you change cash in the UK above [I think] £500 (about $700) you must show some ID and it is recorded. When you look at respective spending power of Joe Soap between here and Russia, its about the same I reckon. I bet you cant change too much cash in the US without it being recorded for the IRS.

Transactions of more than $10,000 must be reported to the IRS. Just a little more than £500.  :laugh: $10,000 Canadian in Canada to be reported to Canada Revenue Agency.

Native English speakers will understand the difference between 'recorded' and 'reported'.

Recorded for who? Where's that information going? How are you getting that information? You still need to ask the customer for ID.

The $10k (or local currency equivalent) limit for tax authority reporting is pretty standard worldwide in the first world and much of the second. An international banker would know that.

I do know it, I just explained it to you.

Read the links Orchid posted; it seems quite reasonable and a step forward. One of the links explains it is to dissuade people from converting currency to hoard (which damages the economy) and bolster the Rouble by increasing confidence in it. Not to mention being a tool in the box of fighting terrorism and general fraud and tax evasion.

If Russia scrapped all reporting requirements the international press would all howl they were aiding an abetting terrorism. By imposing similar rules to the EU they are somehow draconian? Doesn't really work that logic does it?

As the Russian economy grows and develops, the government will bit by bit introduce rules that are more in line with other European economies and generally accepted good practice. Wait till they start with KYC rules; that will knock some shady Ivans for six.

Even with reporting requirements in the west, most adopt a a"file and forget" policy. The chances of a transaction being dredged up for scrutiny are minimal. I've done plenty of six figure £ translations and the bank only wants to write something in a box like "property transaction". The thing about more reporting is it takes more staff to read them and chose which ones to question. So in practical terms it makes little difference. Even what is called "structuring" in the US is hard to spot. Again, an international banker knows all this stuff, right Westy?

Actually "structuring" can be easy to spot for the authorities such as the IRS, FBI, etc when they want to take a look at a business or individual. All that paperwork gets digitised and the authorities then go through the computer records of the companies or individuals they want to check up on.

Do a little research and you'll find a number of individuals and small businesses in the US have been charged with "structuring" their deposits to avoid the $10,000 limit. Because of the "structuring" the government then seizes all the monies in the account(s) of the business or individual and the businesses or individuals then have to take the government to court to get their money back which of course costs more money.

One of the reasons many businesses/individuals "structure" their deposits to avoid the $10,000 limit is that many insurance companies have limits on how much money a business or individual can have on the premises, that limit, for small businesses, in many cases is $10,000.

Ipsa scientia potestas est. Knowledge itself is power.   Sir Francis Bacon

Offline Manny

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Re: Russia toughens currency exchange rules
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2015, 01:56:04 PM »
Russian government wants to know about all currency exchanges more than 15,000Rub. It’s about $200.
New rules start working today.

If you change cash in the UK above [I think] £500 (about $700) you must show some ID and it is recorded. When you look at respective spending power of Joe Soap between here and Russia, its about the same I reckon. I bet you cant change too much cash in the US without it being recorded for the IRS.

Transactions of more than $10,000 must be reported to the IRS. Just a little more than £500.  :laugh: $10,000 Canadian in Canada to be reported to Canada Revenue Agency.

Native English speakers will understand the difference between 'recorded' and 'reported'.

Recorded for who? Where's that information going?

On small amounts the travel agent/bureau de change/bank records it internally; the onus is then upon them to spot a structuring scenario. Many choose to report all ID recorded transactions to remove the onus on them. But it increases the workload at the revenue. So de facto the mythical $10k limit is in fact much lower in many cases.

How are you getting that information?

Decades of experience in the real world.

You still need to ask the customer for ID.

Correct; I never said otherwise.

It seems we broadly agree for a change.

Do we also agree this is a positive move for Russia?
I apologise.
And so he should.........

Offline Manny

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Re: Russia toughens currency exchange rules
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2015, 02:14:25 PM »
Native English speakers will understand the difference between 'recorded' and 'reported'.

I am not a Native English speaker, but it took not very long time to learn that everything reported is recorded in the USA.  :sick0012:

Perhaps. But not everything recorded is reported
I apologise.
And so he should.........

Offline WestCoast

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Re: Russia toughens currency exchange rules
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2015, 02:46:41 PM »
Russian government wants to know about all currency exchanges more than 15,000Rub. It’s about $200.
New rules start working today.

If you change cash in the UK above [I think] £500 (about $700) you must show some ID and it is recorded. When you look at respective spending power of Joe Soap between here and Russia, its about the same I reckon. I bet you cant change too much cash in the US without it being recorded for the IRS.

Transactions of more than $10,000 must be reported to the IRS. Just a little more than £500.  :laugh: $10,000 Canadian in Canada to be reported to Canada Revenue Agency.

Native English speakers will understand the difference between 'recorded' and 'reported'.

Recorded for who? Where's that information going?

On small amounts the travel agent/bureau de change/bank records it internally; the onus is then upon them to spot a structuring scenario. Many choose to report all ID recorded transactions to remove the onus on them. But it increases the workload at the revenue. So de facto the mythical $10k limit is in fact much lower in many cases.

How are you getting that information?

Decades of experience in the real world.

You still need to ask the customer for ID.

Do we also agree this is a positive move for Russia?

The problem is the limit, 15000 rubles is very low and when it's surpassed, according to the Pravda article a "detailed questionnaire" must be filled out. Do people really want to spend time filling out a detailed questionnaire to exchange 15000 rubles?

The new law sounds more like an authoritarian regime's method for preventing or reducing the purchase of more stable currencies such as the USD or euro. Or for preventing Russians from buying foreign goods that can't be purchased in Russia or in rubles.

Ipsa scientia potestas est. Knowledge itself is power.   Sir Francis Bacon

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Re: Russia toughens currency exchange rules
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2015, 06:35:53 PM »
Curious how many real estate transactions are still closed with stacks of large Ruble currency notes?