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Author Topic: MH - 17 , the proof is still missing  (Read 607 times)

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Online Markje

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MH - 17 , the proof is still missing
« on: December 15, 2015, 01:14:05 AM »
Source: http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/24877337/__Problemen_met_bewijzen_MH17__.html

I won't translate the whole article, google will do that for you, but some nice quotes I will translate so google doesn't mash it up badly:

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Criminal experts predict problems for the future trial against the massmurderers of the MH17 passengers , now that it is clear that much of the evidence doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The CDA (markje: dutch politics party) will ask questions at dutch government about this topic.

The SBU (Ukrainian intelligence service) delivered wiretapped telephone calls between pro-Russian rebels in the warzone , just before and after the plane of Malaysia Airlines was shot out of the sky. The SBU also had a very big influence in safeguarding the human remains and wreckage of the plane and rocket parts found at the scene.

But the same SBU is also prominently present in lots of bad criminal soap-operas. More than 1 informant is in the scandal of the stolen paintings from the Westfries Museum in Hoorn, Netherlands. The informants are all pointing to SBU-Head (now sacked) Valentyn Nalyvaichenko as 1 of the  brains behind the operation of the Art robbery, (Markje: Oleg Tyahnybok The leader of Svoboda , Ukraine is the other). The name of the former SBU chief was already present last year when Finnish police conducted a huge investigation in stolen antique arts from all over Europe.

The seperate investigation against dirty police-informant Mark M. also points the finger at SBU. Chief justice Oost-brabant, who asked Ukraine's legal system for help, said that Mark M. was well-known in circles of 'gangsters and Ukrainian secret service'. This summer alone, 22 SBU-spies were sent to prison for corruption and criminal activity.

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There already is flimsy evidence, says Dutch Parliament member Omtzigt, and what is there is light to heavily contaminated. The evidence was collected much too late and guarded and collected by people that are simply put: No good


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The CDA wants to know why Satellite and Radar data from Ukraine, Russia and America have not been present in the Investigation so they are not used in the final report of MH-17. Also it appears that no statements have been collected from Urkainian Air traffic control. According to the MH17 investigation team the cooperation with Ukrainian investigaters is good and evidence is heavily scrutinized before being admitted
Markje's question: If the finger puts the blame somewhere else then russia, will investigation cooperation still be as well as it is now? When more and more doctored evidence is discovered, will they re-evaluate the word 'good' ?? They already had to disallow the satellite footage because of 'doctoring' by Ukraine (Russia & America are simply missing.. footnote: Russia's evidence is not missing, it has been on Russian websites for the whole last year. Guess they didn't dare accusing Russia of 'doctoring' so simply declared it missing).

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University expert international law Geert-Jan Knoops says that much more investigation is needed to the reliability of the evidence provided. "The DA has the duty to incooperate any scenario that evidence-tampering exists and has to exclude all scenarios by providing proof it did not happen."

"This includes a close scrutiny of how the SBU selected and conducted the wiretaps of the telephones which the Rebels used. It also includes the selection process itself. How did the SBU conclude whom to place taps on."

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There is lots of noise in this case, says University professor in criminal law, Theo de Roos "This applies to both the defendant and the DA"
Judges will validate the evidence with extreme prejudice and throw out anything 'flaky'. The DA should not wait for that but already do its own research to the integrity of the evidence.

Markje's verdict: Evidence that Russia 'did it' as everyone knows is starting to fall apart at the seems. Maybe a different narrative will follow soon.
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Online msmoby

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Re: MH - 17 , the proof is still missing
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2015, 02:12:03 AM »
'Markje's verdict' is an opinion based ...as normal on this subject..on selective use of the data.

The SBU did not have access to the crash site and the remains of the deceased were not unfer their 'control' v.long...

Nothing I have seen, heard or read has changed my OPINION that the Kremlin did not actually pull the trigger.... but created the circumstances that allowed this to happen..

The 'story' on one side has been constant...the ever changing 'excuses' from t'other is tantamout to a farce.




Online Markje

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Re: MH - 17 , the proof is still missing
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2015, 02:59:58 AM »
'Markje's verdict' is an opinion based ...as normal on this subject..on selective use of the data.
It is my opinion indeed, based upon all available data, not just the ones that fit the narrative.

Just like your quote above is your personal opinion.

The SBU did not have access to the crash site and the remains of the deceased were not unfer their 'control' v.long...
Strange that the official report said that SBU did have control of all of it then.

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Nothing I have seen, heard or read has changed my OPINION that the Kremlin did not actually pull the trigger.... but created the circumstances that allowed this to happen..

The 'story' on one side has been constant...the ever changing 'excuses' from t'other is tantamout to a farce.
I'll wait for the verdict of official courts.

And the 'story' has never been found, just lots of innuendo from all sides, whereas 1 of those is 'believed' by many in the west as the truth, which isn't. Its just a narrative and the facts don't stack up as my article points out.
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Online msmoby

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Re: MH - 17 , the proof is still missing
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2015, 05:22:40 AM »

I'll wait for the verdict of official courts.

Best - as there are plenty of articles to support many lunatic theories

Online Tom Cat

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Re: MH - 17 , the proof is still missing
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2015, 09:12:14 AM »
Don't shoot the messenger, links to articles posted, don't necessarily reflect my personal opinion.

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Re: MH - 17 , the proof is still missing
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2015, 05:28:29 AM »
Aussie MH17 Coroner Ignores Police Evidence, Rules in Favor of Dutch Gov't Investigator

Amazingly, 17 months have passed since the crash, and the investigators still can't establish who shot down the plane.  Our correspondent digs in to the latest developments

http://russia-insider.com/en/mh17-coroner-rules-favour-dutch-safety-board-ignores-police-evidence/ri11890
Don't shoot the messenger, links to articles posted, don't necessarily reflect my personal opinion.

Online andrewfi

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Re: MH - 17 , the proof is still missing
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2015, 03:53:34 AM »
Whilst the investigation referenced was not tasked with assigning blame,  but rather to establish the mechanism by which the incident occurred, it seems to me that there will never be a formal assignation of culpability because it does not suit any actor to do so with the exceptions of Russia and the people of the LPR/DPR. On the other hand a continuing muddying of the waters with strong inferals of blame suits all the other actors including those with the greatest degree of culpability.

That the investigation was flawed can be seen from the details in the published report. Taken in conjunction with external information,  such as that coming from Australia and a suspicion of inadequacy becomes a certainty.

"For what else is the life of man but a kind of play in which men in various costumes perform until the director motions them offstage?" -Erasmus

Online msmoby

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Re: MH - 17 , the proof is still missing
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2015, 04:30:09 AM »
Your a funny guy..

The how has never changed on one side.. t'other claimed it as other 'victory' using their newly acquired toy..

Well...for about an hour... then it was whisked back to Kursk...

You'd think the Russians would know...'one of our BUK systems is missing'.. :coffeeread:


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Re: MH - 17 , the proof is still missing
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2016, 12:59:25 PM »
At least American journalists are not included. :coffeeread:

MH17 crash: Dutch investigators to assess new study implicating Russian soldiers

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/04/mh17-dutch-investigators-to-study-citizen-journalist-claims-over-russians-involved-in-crash
Don't shoot the messenger, links to articles posted, don't necessarily reflect my personal opinion.

Online Markje

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Re: MH - 17 , the proof is still missing
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2016, 01:12:54 PM »
At least American journalists are not included. :coffeeread:

MH17 crash: Dutch investigators to assess new study implicating Russian soldiers

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/04/mh17-dutch-investigators-to-study-citizen-journalist-claims-over-russians-involved-in-crash
I found that outrages too, bellincat has been proven wrong so often, it shouldn't be used as any kind of proof.
However, it fits the narrative, so .....
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Online andrewfi

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Re: MH - 17 , the proof is still missing
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2016, 02:37:45 PM »
The bloke is a very useful resource for both mass media and what one might call 'The Powers That Be'. He is a very useful conduit for disinformation from TPTB to the mass media and provides a very handy 'source' for any quotes that need an attribution.

Such people are always in demand, whether it is some gardener to comment about some gardening topic, a travel agent about travel stuff or, as we see now, for material about matters in Eurasia and the Middle East. It does not matter that the guy knows nothing, has no skills and no basis for credibility - when his use diminishes so too will his appearances and his 'organisation' and he will be back on the dole, as he was before, writing silly posts on forums and fulminating against the world.

"For what else is the life of man but a kind of play in which men in various costumes perform until the director motions them offstage?" -Erasmus

Online msmoby

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Re: MH - 17 , the proof is still missing
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2016, 11:43:21 PM »
The bloke is a very useful resource for both mass media and what one might call 'The Powers That Be'. He is a very useful conduit for disinformation from TPTB to the mass media and provides a very handy 'source' for any quotes that need an attribution.

You are describing most journos who HAVE a clue..ReTweet.com employ UK folk who are left of centre, anti-establishment types who are quoted from the council houses....

Higgins has put together compelling evidence that the BUK system came from and returned to Russia

Naturally, you feel need to try to 'dismiss' his site..

Spin on

Online Markje

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Re: MH - 17 , the proof is still missing
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2016, 01:57:04 AM »
Some of the people are genuinly believing they find the truth out there, through careful hard work and sifting through all available "facts" , i put them between quotation lines, because there are little facts out there.

A blog post here, a facebook rant there, but they still might be mis-information.

Thats the saddest truth, I have definately become more paranoid since Crimea. The amount of mis-information was so high in Western media, yet so easily exposed as lies by my own eyes and live-feed on Skype with my MIL.

The giant party + fireworks, showed me more about intent than the actual ballot-counting of Crimea's referendum results the next day.

Oh well.
You can change anything in life, but a BMW only for a BMW
My first trip to my wife: To Evpatoria!
My road trip to Crimea: Roadtrip to Evpatoria