Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.

[Markje]

Looks like Turkey really shot down a Russian Mig. Russia confirmed it was shot down but denies it flying over Turkish airspace.

This could become very ugly.

[leslied]

This is a very serious escalation on the Turkish side -

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-shoots-down-russian-jet-for-airspace-violation-near-syrian-border.aspx?pageID=238&nID=91580&NewsCatID=352

Is Erdogan trying to provoke a retaliation?

[Manny]

This would appear to be it: https://twitter.com/HaberturkTV/status/669061103884734464

Here is the story at Tass: http://tass.ru/en/defense/838729

And in the UK: http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/621613/Turkey-shoots-jet-airspace

[rosco]

I would not fancy being a Russian pilot on an escape and evade mission. 

[Markje]

One of the Russian pilots has been captured by Syrian rebels (the moderate ones).

Looks like we will soon find out if Russia was bombing them + ISIS or just ISIS as it claims.

Mark.

[Ste]

Was the Russian plane going on it's holidays in it's own time?

[andrewfi]

Was the Russian plane going on it's holidays in it's own time?

Doubt it, but then it was probably not in Turkey either.
Have the Turks moved their declared airspace boundary back to their own border or is it still within Syria as it was just a few days ago?

[Chyrso]

Unfortunately, there are problems between Russia and Turkey .

Russian planes crossed the border into Turkey and Turkey evoked by 10 times in 5 min. turkey published the radar tracks.
I think Russia does not explain some things.Everyone knows russian bombing to ISIS but it's wrong. Russia bombing the turkmen religion in Syria.
It would not be worse results.

[Markje]

Unfortunately, there are problems between Russia and Turkey .

Russian planes crossed the border into Turkey and Turkey evoked by 10 times in 5 min. turkey published the radar tracks.
I think Russia does not explain some things.Everyone knows russian bombing to ISIS but it's wrong. Russia bombing the turkmen religion in Syria.
It would not be worse results.

That is a matter of interpretation. Erdogan moved the border singlehandedly without international recognition last year. Russia flew inside this zone, so for the international community it was Syria whilst for Turkey's view it was inside Turkey.

As for who's bombing who: Russia is bombing ISIS+Others in my opinion. In fact, some major news media portrayed bombing of ISIS from Russia as their own accomplishments. (shame on them).

[Ste]

Unfortunately, there are problems between Russia and Turkey .

Russian planes crossed the border into Turkey and Turkey evoked by 10 times in 5 min. turkey published the radar tracks.
I think Russia does not explain some things.Everyone knows russian bombing to ISIS but it's wrong. Russia bombing the turkmen religion in Syria.
It would not be worse results.

That is a matter of interpretation. Erdogan moved the border singlehandedly without international recognition last year.

Like Russia did with Crimea?

[Markje]

Turkey backstabbed Russia by downing the Russian warplane and acted as accomplices of the terrorists.

The plane was hit by a Turkish warplane as it was travelling 1 km away from the Turkish border, Putin said. The plane posed no threat to Turkish national security, he stressed.

Putin said the plane was targeting terrorist targets in the Latakia province of Syria, many of whom came from Russia.

Russia noticed of the flow of oil from Syrian territory under the control of terrorists to Turkey, Putin said.

Apparently, IS now not only receives revenue from the smuggling of oil, but also has the protection of a nation’s military, Putin said. This may explain why the terrorist group is so bold in taking acts of terrorism across the world, he added.

The incident will have grave consequences for Russia’s relations with Turkey, Putin warned.

The fact that Turkey did not try to contact Russia in the wake of the incident and rushed to call a NATO meeting instead is worrisome, Putin said. It appears that Turkey want NATO to serve the interests of IS, he added.

Putin said Russia respects the regional interests of other nations, but warned the atrocity committed by Turkey would not go without an answer.

Putin was speaking at a meeting with King of Jordan Abdullah II in Sochi, who expressed his condolences to the Russian leader over the loss of a Russian pilot in Tuesday’s incident, as well as the deaths of Russians in the Islamic State bombing of a passenger plane in Egypt.

The two leaders discussed the anti-terrorist effort in Syria and Iraq and the diplomatic effort to find a political solution to the Syrian conflict.

[leslied]

Just watched an interview with Putin on Channel One.  He was furious!  Accused Erdogan of stabbing Russia in the back.  IMHO the USA has pushed Erdogan to do this, I do not think he is stupid enough to do this on his own...

As to what happens next, well that is anyone's guess. 

If Russia sanctions trade with Turkey it will start a recession here...

Do not be surprised if Assad appears on Russian media and bans ALL foreign military flights over Syria and states that Russia will enforce this ban...

[froid]

Like Russia did with Crimea?

Haha.  Now THAT's funny.

[leslied]

Here is a English Translation of Putin's Statement on Russian TV -

Thank you for your condolences, including for the downing of our military plane. This event comes in the context of our fight against terrorism.

Our military are fighting a heroic struggle against terrorism, without sparing themselves or and without regard for their own lives. But today’s loss was a blow in the back by the accomplices of terrorists. I can’t qualify this in any other way.

Our plane was downed over Syrian territory by an air-to-air missile from a Turkish F16. It crashed four kilometre from the Turkish border.

At the time it was attacked, it was at an altitude of 6000m and one kilometre from the border with Turkey. In any case our pilots and our aircraft never threatened the territory of Turkey. That much is obvious.

The pilots were part of an operation against Isil in the mountainous areas of north Latakia, where there is a concentration of militants largely from the Russian Federation. That is, they were fulfilling their direct duty of preventing attacks by terrorists who might at any moment return to Russia. And these are people who can only be qualified as international terrorists.

We long ago established that large quantities of oil and oil products from [terrorist occupied] territory transit Turkey. Terror groups get a big financial boost from there. And now we're stabbed in the back, with strikes against our aircraft that are fighting terrorism. And that is after we have signed an agreement with our American partners to avoid clashes in the air, and Turkey was one of the countries that announced its participation in the US-led coalition against terrorism.

If Isil has such money, and we're talking about tens, hundreds of millions, possibly billions of dollars from oil revenues, plus protection from the armed forces of an entire country, then it is understandable why they are so audacious, so blatant, why they murder people in the most horrendous ways, whey they carry out terrorist attacks across the world including in the heart of Europe.”

We will of course carefully analyse everything that happened. Today’s tragic event will have serious consequences including for Russia’s relationship with Turkey.

We have always treated Turkey not just as a close neighbour but as a friendly state. I don’t know who had an interest in what happened today. It certainly wasn’t us. And instead of contacting us immediately, as far as we know the Turkish side first turned to their partners in Nato to discuss this incident. As if we had downed a Turkish plane [when it was] they who shot down one of ours.

What, do they want to put Nato at the service of Isil? I understand that every state has its own regional interests, and we will always treat them with respect. But we will never tolerate the perpetration crimes such as the one committed today.

And of course, we hope that the international community will nonetheless find the strength to come together in the fight against this common evil.

In that connection, of course, we count on the active participation of all the countries in the region, and we are very grateful for your visit today, your Majesty. We continue to work with your secret service and military specialists, as with other countries in the region.



The source is -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/12013212/Turkey-shoots-down-Russian-military-plane-on-Syria-border-live.html

Having listened to this broadcast myself I say this translation is redacted.  Putin's words in Russian were much stronger.

[Chyrso]

Somebody remembered this warning to Putin.

3 Oct : http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/russia-says-violation-of-turkish-airspace-was-navigation-error.aspx?pageID=238&nID=89387&NewsCatID=352
4 Oct. Again

15 Oct. http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/russian-army-informs-turkish-military-about-oct-3-4-air-space-violations.aspx?pageID=238&nID=89936&NewsCatID=352

I think not a coincidence. No need for a warning if Russia's goal is different.

After that Russian helicopter was forced to make an emergency landing.

[Markje]

That is a matter of interpretation. Erdogan moved the border singlehandedly without international recognition last year.

Like Russia did with Crimea?

Except Crimea chose its own faith with a completely valid referendum, Erdogan simply said: Now it is so.

[Chyrso]

That is a matter of interpretation. Erdogan moved the border singlehandedly without international recognition last year.

Like Russia did with Crimea?

Except Crimea chose its own faith with a completely valid referendum, Erdogan simply said: Now it is so.

unfortunately, Erdogan Turkey's curse..

[Markje]

Mr Erdogan spoke of Turkey’s “rage” at Syria’s decision to shoot down the F-4 Phantom on 22 June. “A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack,” he said.

Talk about turning 180 .....

Source : http://www.nineoclock.ro/turkey-pm-erdogan-issues-syria-border-warning/

[leslied]

Markje,

The incident with the Turkish F4 happened back in June 2012.  Syrian forces downed the jet using Russian supplied surface to air missiles.

It appears that the Turkomen rebels have murdered the two pilots (there are conflicting reports) If this is so the Russian reprisal against the Turkomen rebels will negate any advantage for them that Erdogan hoped to obtain by his action.

[Markje]

Markje,

The incident with the Turkish F4 happened back in June 2012.  Syrian forces downed the jet using Russian supplied surface to air missiles.

It appears that the Turkomen rebels have murdered the two pilots (there are conflicting reports) If this is so the Russian reprisal against the Turkomen rebels will negate any advantage for them that Erdogan hoped to obtain by his action.

Same in the news here, They were shot whilst still on their parashutes in the sky. Isn't that a war crime?

[andrewfi]

Worth noting that it is not possible that the Turkish aircraft were scrambled to make the attack, they were already patrolling the area. Looking at a map it is not credible that 10 warnings were given as claimed unless it was 'getoutgetoutgetoutgetoutgetoutgetoutgetoutgetoutgetoutgetoutFIRE).

The Russian plane would seem to have been within Syrian airspace but also within the extended airspace infringing upon Syria claimed by Turkey last year. Thus the Russians had every right to be present (the extension claim is recognised by nobody apart from Turkey).

That the Turkish planes were ready, able to find the target and fire so fast suggests that they were not only on station waiting but had no need to refer upward for instructions and so this was a matter of policy.

Yes, I too saw the footage of Putin, live streamed, he was more than a tad miffed.

The problem for the Russian government in this matter may well be the manner in which the news is received by the populace in Russia. If they call for blood it may be hard to resist that call. If the pilots were killed on the ground that goes double. Note: the Russian media is NOT under the control of the government and so it is unlikely that the matter can be spun to keep a lid on reaction - indeed, the media is already full of the story - just as it is in Europe.

[rosco]

I can see a situation developing whereby the Russians increase their activity in the area and provide additional air cover for any bombers flying through that corridor. It would be interesting to see what response Turkey would take. Sanctions and Syria closing its airspace to all except the Russian's is also a distinct possibility.

If the pilots have been murdered as they fell/landed, then I suspect someone will have to pay the piper. Scary times ahead.......

[TomT]

Apparently, Turkey is governed by idiots who appear to be laboring under the delusion that Putin gives a damn about their NATO affiliation and is incapable of dealing with Ukraine, Syria and Turkey simultaneously.

[Manny]

This is a bit of interesting side info:

Turkey’s prime minister was caught shipping arms to ISIS in January, which may explain why the NATO ally shot down a Russian jet targeting ISIS militants on Tuesday.

Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu ordered a media blackout after the military’s Gendarmerie General Command discovered around 50 rockets, 35 crates of ammunition, including mortar rounds, and Douchka anti-aircraft ammunition hidden inside Syria-bound trucks operated by Turkey’s intelligence agency.

“The trucks were carrying weapons and supplies to the al-Qaeda terror organization,” a report by the Gendarmerie General Command stated, and it’s worth noting that ISIS is linked to al-Qaeda.

Source.

Also, there are reports reports that Lavrov is already advising Russians against travelling to Turkey and Natali Tours has already stopped selling tours to Turkey from any CIS country.

[TomT]

In fact, some major news media portrayed bombing of ISIS from Russia as their own accomplishments. (shame on them).

That's right.

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/propaganda-fail-pbs-caught-russian-footage-depict-airstrikes-isis-oil-fields/