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Author Topic: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.  (Read 21445 times)

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Offline Manny

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Re: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2015, 10:55:15 AM »
Wikileaks has released this:

Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<< - Read a trip report from South Korea, China and Hong Kong >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.

Offline rosco

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Re: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2015, 10:59:35 AM »
And now Obama adds fuel to the fire, without actually knowing the full facts. Not exactly sensible but a predictable dig at Russia nonetheless. The continued preaching about moderate rebels is almost comical and it's astounding that he still believes the US hold the moral high ground.


"I do think this points to an ongoing problem with Russian operations (in Syria)," Mr Obama continued, "in the sense that they are operating very close to a Turkish border and they are going after moderate opposition." "If Russia is directing its energies towards Daesh and Isil (Islamic State), some of those conflicts or potentials for mistakes or escalation are less likely to occur."


Asked about the downing of a Russian jet, President Obama said he was still getting the details. But he said "Turkey, like every country, has the right to defend its territory and its airspace".


* Quotes from the BBC


Offline Manny

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Re: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2015, 01:19:10 PM »
Russia's public statement in English.

------------------

Ministry of Defence of the Russian Federation
53 mins · Edited ·

Speech of the Chief of the Main Operational Directorate of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces Lieutenant General Sergei Rudskoy on provocative actions of the Turkish Air Force:

«Today, at 10:24 (MSK) an F-16 fighter of the Turkish Air Force shot down Su-24M tactical bomber of the Russian Aerospace Forces, which was performing a combat sortie over the territory of the Syrian Arab Republic. The fighter supposedly performed the strike with IR homing headed short-range missile.

The objective monitoring data confirmed that the Turkish warplane did not make any attempt to establish a communication or visual contact with the Russian bomber.

The missile hit the Su-24M aircraft over the territory of Syria. The bomber crash place is on the territory of Syria four kilometres far from the borderline. The Su-24M crew managed to eject.
According to the preliminary data, fire from the ground killed one of the pilots.

The objective monitoring data shows that the Russian aircraft did not cross the Turkish borderline.

Data received from the Syrian Air Defence Forces confirmed this fact as well.

Moreover, radar reconnaissance data, which was received from the Hmeymim airbase, registered Syrian airspace violation by the attacking aircraft of the Turkish Air Force.

This fact is assessed as a flagrant violation of international law with extremely grave consequences and the direct breach of Memorandum on air incident prevention and flight safety over the Syrian Arab Republic, which had been signed by the USA and relevant for all countries of the coalition, including Turkey.

That is why the Turkish party started urgent consultations with the NATO instead of immediate contacting with the Russian Defence Ministry.

Defence Attaché of Turkey in the Russian Federation was presented a decisive protest against the actions of the Turkish Air Force, which had led to the loss of the Russian aircraft.
It is to be mentioned that from the beginning of the operation, the Russian Defence Ministry had established a direct telephone line between the National Centre for State Defence Control of the Russian Federation and the Ministry of National Defence of Turkey. But it had no practical use due to the fault of the Turkish party.

In order to evacuate the Russian pilots from the landing point, a search-and-rescue operation was conducted by two Mi-8 helicopters. In the course of the operation, one of helicopters was damaged by small arms fire and performed an emergency landing in the neutral area. One contract serviceman – member of Marine Troops – was killed.

The personnel of the search-and-rescue team and the helicopter crew were evacuated and are now at the Hmeymim airbase. The helicopter was destroyed by mortar fire conducted from the territory controlled by illegal armed groups.

The operation on searching and rescuing the crew of the Russian bomber is continued.

It is to be emphasized that in the action area of the Russia aviation the Syrian governmental troops are conducting operation on elimination of illegal armed groups, which include over 1000 militants from the North Caucasus according to the Russian data sources.

It is to be stressed that none of the Russian partners and none of the states, which are fighting against ISIS, has mentioned that there are units of so-called “moderate opposition” and that they do not recommend to make strikes in this area. On the contrary, these territories are known as the ones controlled by the most radical illegal armed groups.

Now the General Staff is elaborating additional security measures for the Russian airbase.

First: All the activities of the attack aviation will be carried out only under cover of fighter aircraft.

Second: Air defence will be reinforced. For that purpose, the Moskva cruiser equipped with air defence system Fort analogous to the S-300 one will go to the shore zone of Latakia. Russian Defence Ministry warns that all the potentially dangerous targets will be destroyed.

Third: Contacts with Turkey will be terminated at the military level»
.


--------------------------

I think we can assume Turkey's planes are now viable targets when trespassing. Even if only by a few meters or in error.
Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<< - Read a trip report from South Korea, China and Hong Kong >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.


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Re: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2015, 01:45:49 PM »
The restraint in the message is almost touchable..

Looks like Moscow kept a cool head, despite putin's angry words.
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Re: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2015, 05:43:30 PM »
I was wondering how long it would take before the Russian military's incessant testing and teasing of other nation's airspace lead to an incident. If in fact the radar track map is correct, they've got nothing to complain about and Turkey has nothing to apologize for.

It's unfortunate that the ejected pilots got gunned down while parachuting, but I wouldn't expect anything less from a bunch of primitive animals. For that, Russia has every right to be pissed off.

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Re: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.
« Reply #30 on: November 24, 2015, 08:36:19 PM »
Суки турецкие!
Оборванцы безмозглые!!!

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Re: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2015, 01:25:11 AM »
I was wondering how long it would take before the Russian military's incessant testing and teasing of other nation's airspace lead to an incident. If in fact the radar track map is correct, they've got nothing to complain about and Turkey has nothing to apologize for.

It's unfortunate that the ejected pilots got gunned down while parachuting, but I wouldn't expect anything less from a bunch of primitive animals. For that, Russia has every right to be pissed off.
According to Dutch news, there are military protocols to follow for Nations not at-war with each other. Since Russia is not at-war with Turkey, Turkey definately violated international military protocol and Russia has every right to be pissed off. The worst you can do which protocol allows is to try to force the planes in question to land, which they didn't. Plus the planes were over Turkey airspace only 9 seconds, which makes it very dubious indeed, considering the airspeed of most modern planes.

Mark.


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Re: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2015, 02:04:08 AM »
It is worse than Markje suggests. It seems that there was a document between Turkey and Russia that outlined protocols. There was a phone line between Turkey and Russia for such cases. Both were disgarded without notice.

But yes there are normal protocols that Turkey chose to ignore, these take account of the purpose of the incursion the degree of the incursion and the time. Given the Turkish claim of 17 seconds incursion that tells us that the warnings could not have been given as they claimed and neither could the attack have been made in Turkish airspace. Even the Turkish 'evidence' shows their aircraft flying into Syria, albeit they stopped the trace line at the border. Guppycaptain, that famed pilot can reassure doubters that modern planes can not stop forward motion instantaneously, they can not turn without traveling in a circle and neither can they retrace their previous path without deviation such that their flight path is a straight line from start, to turn point and back to its origin.

Next, it seems that the Russian planes did not fly over Turkey at all. This seems to have occurred in Syria but in an area that Turkey has unilaterally declared to be within their 'buffer zone', their unofficial no fly zone.

This was, for sure, a premeditated attack, it was not a response to an incursion, it was a demonstration of intent - an act of war upon Russia. There simply was not time, or space, for it to have been otherwise.

One wonders if the plane that shot the missile was one of the new ones delivered by the US to Turkey a few days ago and whether the pilot was one of the American pilots delivered a few days ago? basically, a US plane wearing a Turkish flag.

I am wondering how long it will not be before NATO and the US come clean and simply state the obvious, that NATO and the US are in alliance with ISIS and have no intention of doing as they have told us in respect of this group.
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Re: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2015, 02:15:05 AM »
Well, looks like we soon will have an eye-witness from the Russian side. 1 of the pilots is alive, healthy and currently in the Syrian Army who is returning him to Russian base soon. He already confirmed that his comrade was shot whilst still in the sky on his parashute, but not lethal, but once on the ground he was killed.

Source : Alexandre Orlov, Russian ambassadeur in France.
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Offline Texan77

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Re: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.
« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2015, 02:26:57 AM »
Russia's public statement in English.

------------------

Ministry of Defence of the Russian Federation
53 mins · Edited ·


Now the General Staff is elaborating additional security measures for the Russian airbase.

First: All the activities of the attack aviation will be carried out only under cover of fighter aircraft.

Second: Air defence will be reinforced. For that purpose, the Moskva cruiser equipped with air defence system Fort analogous to the S-300 one will go to the shore zone of Latakia. Russian Defence Ministry warns that all the potentially dangerous targets will be destroyed.

Third: Contacts with Turkey will be terminated at the military level»
.


--------------------------

I think we can assume Turkey's planes are now viable targets when trespassing. Even if only by a few meters or in error.

When is the pipeline through Turkey going to be completed? Maybe Russia could bypass Turkey by going through the Ukraine. Maybe the US should try to support Ukraine from illegal terrorist groups in eastern Ukraine with bombers and see what Russia would do? It is amazing how you guys see things differently depending on who is doing it. I am sure the Turks think Russia should go home and mind its own business. You have to remember they support these groups much like Russia supported the civil war in eastern Ukraine.   

More failed policies from Putin. Russia and Turkey were very friendly before the Ukraine. Now they are nearly at war. Do you guys understand how much it is going to cost Russia if the have to send two fighters with each bomber and keep a ship on stand by? It is looking like this small war may have a little cost over run.  Likely one of many to come.

Also notice since Russia went into Syria, ISIL is carrying out more attacks on foreign soil not less. Russia being in Syria is a great recruitment tool for ISIL and they are doing very little to limit ISIL ability.

If it was not ruining so many lives all of this would be funny.
3) There has been no "threat" to invade Ukraine. The US invented that and fed it to a complicit media.

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Re: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2015, 02:45:35 AM »

This was, for sure, a premeditated attack, it was not a response to an incursion, it was a demonstration of intent - an act of war upon Russia. There simply was not time, or space, for it to have been otherwise.


I agree with that conclusion 100% Andrew.  However I think this was initiated by Erdogan. The US official report leaves no doubt that the Turkish version of events is a total fabrication.

The news media here are all towing the AKP line.  No one dares to gainsay Erdogan.  I don't think people are aware that it is now a criminal offense in Turkey to "insult" Erdogan.  However "reading between the lines" I think Nato is furious with Turkey and will support no further action of this kind.  Erdogan is far from being the sharpest tool in the draw and has acted like a "loose cannon"

Putin will not act rashly.  His response will be calculated.  The West will not be aiding Turkey when the economic sanctions are imposed.  The level of reprisal could have very severe implications for the Turkish economy. 

Right now here in Antalya, there is panic amongst the hoteliers.  The Russians are by far the largest group of tourists - over 50% in most resorts, in Belek maybe 75%.  The Russian tour operators are cancelling hotel contracts for next season!  This is instant bankruptcy for small hotel groups.  It will also cause substantial unemployment.

Wait to see how events unfold...



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Re: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2015, 02:46:05 AM »
Texan77: The extended pipeline to Turkey from Russia had already been suspended, before the last Turkish election.

This was due to difficulties with Turkey, more accurately with the government.

In part, in response to this, the Nordstream project became a candidate for expansion because Germany, the destination point of Nordstream understands fully the issues of having an unreliable transit partner (Ukraine) in the picture and is seeking to reduce dependence upon Ukraine in that role.

The suspension is already an issue for Turkey because they actually need the gas from the, now delayed, pipe right now. The first phase of the pipeline was always designed to meet Turkish domestic demand and only secondarily to provide gas to the EU.
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Re: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2015, 02:52:36 AM »
Les, with regard to US involvement, I proceed, in all matters, from the perspective of the overarching goals of the US.

it may be that the US had no involvement, but to be honest I find that hard to believe. I do not believe that the incident was a surprise to the Powers That Be in the US (but it may have been a surprise to Obama and his staff, for example!)

We will see how the wheel turns. In the end it is by action that we understand the character of the person (or in this case the state). I have no doubt that the Russian state and government response will be measured and not rash however the effect of this escalation is to increase pressure upon Russia and to 'tighten a noose' around Russia - for example, how would Russia react to Turkey closing the Bosphorus to Russian shipping - commercial or military? That'd seem like a rational (for the Turkish government) incremental escalation to anything the Russians might do. Significantly, that is a move that would also serve NATO/US interests as well.
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Re: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2015, 02:57:30 AM »
Putin has his hand on a very big 'Bomb turkey back to the stoneage' , except the bomb in this case is not military but economicly.

I think Erdogan just choked on this piece , and if he's not forced to retire, there will be a maidan soon when the Turkish people realise what happened with the economy due to pissing off the Russians.
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Re: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2015, 03:00:44 AM »
Putin has his hand on a very big 'Bomb turkey back to the stoneage' , except the bomb in this case is not military but economicly.

I think Erdogan just choked on this piece , and if he's not forced to retire, there will be a maidan soon when the Turkish people realise what happened with the economy due to pissing off the Russians.

That might be true, except that Turkey and Russia are economically intertwined and interdependent. If Russia chose to commence an economic blockade upon Turkey the result would be a severe recession in Russia. As Mr Putin accurately noted a year or so ago, sanctions tend to have a boomerang effect - he was correct then and correct now.
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Re: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.
« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2015, 03:03:08 AM »
how would Russia react to Turkey closing the Bosphorus to Russian shipping - commercial or military? That'd seem like a rational (for the Turkish government) incremental escalation to anything the Russians might do. Significantly, that is a move that would also serve NATO/US interests as well.
I think Russia would respond by stopping all trade with Turkey and then see who has the deepest pockets.

It will be Crimea that suffers though, as most ships through bosporus from Russia are from Crimea.

Interesting sidenote: Are ships from Crimea then Ukrainian or Russian according to Erdogan. If he blocks them he acknowledges Crimea being Russian, if he doesn't his blockade will be useless.
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Re: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.
« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2015, 03:07:23 AM »
If the Turkish government were to close the Bosphorus it'd be to Russian flagged vessels. The origin is irrelevant.

It is obvious that the Russian government does not want to play 'who has the deepest pockets' if it were otherwise they'd have been doing very different things these last 18 months.

There's a reason why the saying 'Revenge is a dish best served cold' is true!
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Re: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.
« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2015, 03:20:24 AM »
It is obvious that the Russian government does not want to play 'who has the deepest pockets' if it were otherwise they'd have been doing very different things these last 18 months.
Medvedev said they are discussing bucketting a few projects they are doing together with Turkey.

Other than the gas-pipeline, what projects are ongoing with Russia/Turkey together?
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Re: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.
« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2015, 03:50:32 AM »
Andrew,

Turkey cannot abrogate the Montreux convention unilaterally.  Blocking the straights of the Bosporus is an act of war involving all of the signatories.

Turkey had been doing quite well with several very large trade agreements in progress: Energy, Agricultural products, industrial goods etc.  Most of this is likely to be frozen. 

Turkey has been buying cheap oil from ISIS in very large quantity.  This has added $billions to ISIS coffers.   I think a likely first reprisal will be to destroy the pipelines between Iraq, Syria and Turkey, thereby effectively ending this trade.  Turkey will then have to replace this shortfall on world markets - expensive.

There is very little linkage between the Ukraine conflict and Turkish foreign policy.  Indeed Turkey has profited considerably from the Russian sanctions imposed on EU. 
 

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Re: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.
« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2015, 03:52:18 AM »
I was wondering how long it would take before the Russian military's incessant testing and teasing of other nation's airspace lead to an incident. If in fact the radar track map is correct, they've got nothing to complain about and Turkey has nothing to apologize for.

It's unfortunate that the ejected pilots got gunned down while parachuting, but I wouldn't expect anything less from a bunch of primitive animals. For that, Russia has every right to be pissed off.

Vile stuff.

So you believe it's acceptable to shoot another so called allied aircraft out the sky? Worst case scenario, the plane flirted with the border momentarily but Turkey knew all along, it was no threat to them.

I suspect the roots are deeper and with Turkey being sympathetic towards ISIS and probably pissed that the Russians have destroyed millions of dollars of cheap oil, it was most likely a pre-emptive strike.

It's sad to see another person consumed by the western media.

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Re: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.
« Reply #45 on: November 25, 2015, 04:12:23 AM »
Russia's public statement in English.

------------------

Ministry of Defence of the Russian Federation
53 mins · Edited ·


Now the General Staff is elaborating additional security measures for the Russian airbase.

First: All the activities of the attack aviation will be carried out only under cover of fighter aircraft.

Second: Air defence will be reinforced. For that purpose, the Moskva cruiser equipped with air defence system Fort analogous to the S-300 one will go to the shore zone of Latakia. Russian Defence Ministry warns that all the potentially dangerous targets will be destroyed.

Third: Contacts with Turkey will be terminated at the military level»
.


--------------------------

I think we can assume Turkey's planes are now viable targets when trespassing. Even if only by a few meters or in error.

When is the pipeline through Turkey going to be completed? Maybe Russia could bypass Turkey by going through the Ukraine. Maybe the US should try to support Ukraine from illegal terrorist groups in eastern Ukraine with bombers and see what Russia would do? It is amazing how you guys see things differently depending on who is doing it. I am sure the Turks think Russia should go home and mind its own business. You have to remember they support these groups much like Russia supported the civil war in eastern Ukraine.   

More failed policies from Putin. Russia and Turkey were very friendly before the Ukraine. Now they are nearly at war. Do you guys understand how much it is going to cost Russia if the have to send two fighters with each bomber and keep a ship on stand by? It is looking like this small war may have a little cost over run.  Likely one of many to come.

Also notice since Russia went into Syria, ISIL is carrying out more attacks on foreign soil not less. Russia being in Syria is a great recruitment tool for ISIL and they are doing very little to limit ISIL ability.

If it was not ruining so many lives all of this would be funny.

First of all, it's Ukraine and not The Ukraine. You do this every time!

Secondly, if you feel so strong about the Russian's minding their own business, why don't you guys over the pond keep out of everything round the globe too? No doubt the irony is lost on your frail soul.

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Re: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.
« Reply #47 on: November 25, 2015, 05:40:47 AM »
I was wondering how long it would take before the Russian military's incessant testing and teasing of other nation's airspace lead to an incident. If in fact the radar track map is correct, they've got nothing to complain about and Turkey has nothing to apologize for.

It's unfortunate that the ejected pilots got gunned down while parachuting, but I wouldn't expect anything less from a bunch of primitive animals. For that, Russia has every right to be pissed off.

Vile stuff.

So you believe it's acceptable to shoot another so called allied aircraft out the sky? Worst case scenario, the plane flirted with the border momentarily but Turkey knew all along, it was no threat to them.

I suspect the roots are deeper and with Turkey being sympathetic towards ISIS and probably pissed that the Russians have destroyed millions of dollars of cheap oil, it was most likely a pre-emptive strike.

It's sad to see another person consumed by the western media.

Indeed it is sad to see another person (or people in the case of this forum) so consumed by propaganda.

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Re: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.
« Reply #48 on: November 25, 2015, 05:42:22 AM »
I was wondering how long it would take before the Russian military's incessant testing and teasing of other nation's airspace lead to an incident. If in fact the radar track map is correct, they've got nothing to complain about and Turkey has nothing to apologize for.

It's unfortunate that the ejected pilots got gunned down while parachuting, but I wouldn't expect anything less from a bunch of primitive animals. For that, Russia has every right to be pissed off.
According to Dutch news, there are military protocols to follow for Nations not at-war with each other. Since Russia is not at-war with Turkey, Turkey definately violated international military protocol and Russia has every right to be pissed off. The worst you can do which protocol allows is to try to force the planes in question to land, which they didn't. Plus the planes were over Turkey airspace only 9 seconds, which makes it very dubious indeed, considering the airspeed of most modern planes.

Mark.

I'm well aware of intercept procedures (duh).  (:)

Online Markje

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Re: Turkey Shoots Down Russian War Plane - Russia Says it was in Syria.
« Reply #49 on: November 25, 2015, 05:50:21 AM »

Indeed it is sad to see another person (or people in the case of this forum) so consumed by propaganda.
Right, but as an Airman you didn't do the numbers.

If you look at the Turkish version of events, the plane would have to be flying 17 seconds inside Turkey's airspace , doing 1.5 miles in those 17 seconds.

Other flyboys did the math, the plane would be stuck at stall-speed or just below and plummet from the sky without needing to be shot.

This fact alone, should get you thinking that maybe the Turks are lying their asses off.
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