Living off stock returns in the FSU - What do I need to be aware of?

[Robert1974]

I am considering moving somewhere in Eastern Europe and live off stock returns from my investments in my native country Sweden. I'm in the early stages of considering this and I haven't decided on a specific country to move to yet. However, I would like some general advice on what to think about if I decide to so. For example, would I be able to get a long term visa (maybe I could be considered a retired person and I could get a retiree's visa), would I need to set up some sort of local business that I would need to channel my earnings through, would I be taxed in my new country of resedence in addition to being taxed in Sweden, etc. I'm aware of the risks associated with relying on this type of income and I don't want those to be discussed in this thread. Rather, I'm interested in the visa, tax, and administrative issues involved. Thanks in advance for any input.

[msmoby]

Robert

The question you've raised cannot easily be answered without more questions, first...

1/ Do wish to settle in a E.European nation that is in / might join the EU /EEA ?

2/ Have you visted this nations - as I - personally - need 'company' to enjoy living in a third nation.

[Maxx]

In three weeks and three days I am moving to the Republic of Georgia. In the Expat section here there is a thread entitled, "Maxx's relocation to Tbilisi Georgia." In that thread I discuss that Georgia does not require a visa and allows 1 year stays (with easy renewals), easy place to open a bank account, easy place to start a business and as one financial writer dubbed it, "The Republic of Easy." http://nomadcapitalist.com/2014/12/03/georgia-one-capitalist-countries-world/  The Georgian government wants to integrate into the West. An example of that English is taught to school children from grade 1 on. 

[Robert1974]

Thanks for your replies.

1/ Do wish to settle in a E.European nation that is in / might join the EU /EEA ?
2/ Have you visted this nations - as I - personally - need 'company' to enjoy living in a third nation.

Yes, preferably I would like to choose an EU-country (Poland, Romania and the Baltics come to mind) because it would be easier from a visa point of view and the standard of living is higher there. The plan is to go somewhere where I'd be likely to find someone and if I don't find someone within, let's say 6 months, I'd move on to the next place. Since I am willing to live there I'm not limited to look for women who wants to emigrate.

I have visited all Eastern European countries except Russia, Azerbaijan, and Kazakhstan.

In three weeks and three days I am moving to the Republic of Georgia. In the Expat section here there is a thread entitled, "Maxx's relocation to Tbilisi Georgia." In that thread I discuss that Georgia does not require a visa and allows 1 year stays (with easy renewals), easy place to open a bank account, easy place to start a business and as one financial writer dubbed it, "The Republic of Easy." http://nomadcapitalist.com/2014/12/03/georgia-one-capitalist-countries-world/  The Georgian government wants to integrate into the West. An example of that English is taught to school children from grade 1 on.

Thanks for your tip, I will definitely look into Georgia.

[Maxx]

I've heard Georgia is a difficult place to meet women. I'm not going there for that. When thoughts of a bride search come to mind I envision a short flight across the Black Sea and renting an apartment in Moldova or Ukraine. Flights are dirt cheap once you get there. Also there is the added benefit that if your lady has the impression Georgia is your permanent home she is less likely to size you up for a mule suit, as they used to say.

[andrewfi]

Meeting people and making connections is an attitude of mind. With the right attitude you don't need to go further than your own environs.

Moldova is a great place to visit but I'd not get the idea, ahead of time, that you will not find all the company you need very close to you in Georgia (or Tallinn, or Paris, or Bristol, or...)

[msmoby]

Yes, preferably I would like to choose an EU-country .. because it would be easier from a visa point of view and the standard of living is higher there.

Hi Robert,

there are places -such as Sochi - in Russia where Iwould say the qulaity and std. of living is better than many EU nations..

Getting a visa to be there for six months isn't difficult-if you can demonstrate the ability to support yourself.



For sure, earning money there would be harder - but not impossible.

I've heard Georgia is a difficult place to meet women. I'm not going there for that.

I know 2tallbill suggested this and I applaud you for choosing the place and seeing how things pan out.

[Maxx]

Yes, it's a Zen like thing. Concentrate too hard and you'll miss every time. 

[leslied]

Robert

My comments relate to your tax position. 

1.  Whilst you remain tax domiciled in Sweden, you will pay taxes on any investments in Sweden.

2. If you earn an income in another country (say Poland), you will be taxed on that part of your income in Poland. Retain your tax receipt!  You must also declare this income on your Swedish tax return.  Submit the Polish tax receipt (or copy) so you will not be taxed twice. If your Swedish tax rate is higher than the tax charged you will be taxed on the difference. Say 30% in Poland but 50% in Sweden you will be charged the 20% tax on the Polish income. Nearly all the countries you are considering have double taxation agreements with Sweden.

3.  You need to live for 6 months in any EU country in order to change your domicile to that country.  (Please verify this with a Swedish Tax Accountant. I am NOT a Tax Professional).

4. Changing your tax domicile is a BIG step. You will definitely need two tax specialists one in Sweden, the other in the new domicile.  It will take more than a year.  Only do this if you plan to live in your new tax domicile for several years.

Good Luck !

[Steveboy]

I would find yourself a nice lady in Russia with her own apartment and a reasonable job marry her and move in

You will not need to even think about paying any tax for a long time whilst your sorting your green card out , live "Under the radar" as thousands of others do across the planet :smoking:

I always say keep well clear of "Tax specialists" or "Financial advisors" usually they are vermin Of course unless your bringing in the millions

[leslied]

The OP wants to live off the income from his investments, so taxation is inevitable.  Nearly all dividend income is subject to withholding tax.

Living under the radar is fine if you don't have much money.  If you do, it is stupid.

You only need tax advisers if you have money.  The more money you have the better quality tax adviser you need.

If you are fortunate enough to have millions only a partner specializing in Tax from PWC (or one of the big 5) will do. 

[Maxx]

Income from stock returns leaves a paper trail. It is better to just pay the tax than get cute and not report it. What I think Steve is referring to is cash payments for English lessons.

[Steveboy]

Well tax advisors and financial advisors (I know this is slightly off topic) are the worst people on the planet!

When dealing with them you should always ask for their personal assets list and print out of their recent bank statements 

If they have nothing other than a cheap suit a car and house on credit , who are they to advise you when they are penniless themselves. And most are 

[Manny]

Quite a few Swedish guys live in the Baltics. Wouldn't it be simpler to utilise Swedbank (which is also in the Baltics), swallow the withholding taxes in Sweden, and be a 'tourist'?

[Maxx]

Well tax advisors and financial advisors (I know this is slightly off topic) are the worst people on the planet!

When dealing with them you should always ask for their personal assets list and print out of their recent bank statements 

If they have nothing other than a cheap suit a car and house on credit , who are they to advise you when they are penniless themselves. And most are 

This reminds me of a story I had about a conversation I had with a friend. The topic was bookkeepers and tax return specialists. I told him that bookkeepers do NOT work for us but rather the IRS. I told him that that the IRS intimidates these professions with removal of their licenses and possible prosecution that their job, as they see it, is to collect the maximum revenue for government and to cover their a$s. So they are hesitant about using deductions and certain business expenses and look into every nook and cranny for additional income. I told him I remembered my bookkeeper would send me e-mails on our conversations and what she done with delivery confirmed to her if I opened it. He thought it over for a while and later told me that I was absolutely right.

I've also read expats got to beware of other expats who befriend them in order to acts as informants to the tax collectors. There is percentage bounty offered to them. Now that is about as low as one can go.

[leslied]

Quite a few Swedish guys live in the Baltics. Wouldn't it be simpler to utilise Swedbank (which is also in the Baltics), swallow the withholding taxes in Sweden, and be a 'tourist'?

Excellent advice.  Start off as a tourist.  Your home bank will let you withdraw cash, use your credit cards and pay them.  Make sure you have internet banking - nearly all banks have this service. Tell them you are going to log in from a variety of countries.  They may give you a VPN dongle to facilitate this.

Once you are settled in a country, open a bank account there.  Transfer money by SWIFT to this bank account from your home bank account.  East European countries have lower tax rates than Sweden, so as long as you can prove your income is tax paid in Sweden, there is no problem.

Steve,

I think you are talking about "financial advisers"  who have few (if any) qualifications and are in the business of selling you investments that pays them maximum commission. You are correct the majority are charlatans...

Tax Advisers are Public certified accountants. (In UK Chartered Accountants).  Dealing with the tax authorities without their support is definitely not recommended !

[Steveboy]

Well tax advisors and financial advisors (I know this is slightly off topic) are the worst people on the planet!

When dealing with them you should always ask for their personal assets list and print out of their recent bank statements 

If they have nothing other than a cheap suit a car and house on credit , who are they to advise you when they are penniless themselves. And most are 

This reminds me of a story I had about a conversation I had with a friend. The topic was bookkeepers and tax return specialists. I told him that bookkeepers do NOT work for us but rather the IRS. I told him that that the IRS intimidates these professions with removal of their licenses and possible prosecution that their job, as they see it, is to collect the maximum revenue for government and to cover their a$s. So they are hesitant about using deductions and certain business expenses and look into every nook and cranny for additional income. I told him I remembered my bookkeeper would send me e-mails on our conversations and what she done with delivery confirmed to her if I opened it. He thought it over for a while and later told me that I was absolutely right.

I've also read expats got to beware of other expats who befriend them in order to acts as informants to the tax collectors. There is percentage bounty offered to them. Now that is about as low as one can go.

Its best never to discuss anything with anyone when your living in another country and certainly don't let them know what you are doing or any future plans. And certainly never discuss about your work , salary or anything of that nature.
Funny old world we live in

[Steveboy]

Quite a few Swedish guys live in the Baltics. Wouldn't it be simpler to utilise Swedbank (which is also in the Baltics), swallow the withholding taxes in Sweden, and be a 'tourist'?

Excellent advice.  Start off as a tourist.  Your home bank will let you withdraw cash, use your credit cards and pay them.  Make sure you have internet banking - nearly all banks have this service. Tell them you are going to log in from a variety of countries.  They may give you a VPN dongle to facilitate this.

Once you are settled in a country, open a bank account there.  Transfer money by SWIFT to this bank account from your home bank account.  East European countries have lower tax rates than Sweden, so as long as you can prove your income is tax paid in Sweden, there is no problem.

Steve,

I think you are talking about "financial advisers"  who have few (if any) qualifications and are in the business of selling you investments that pays them maximum commission. You are correct the majority are charlatans...

Tax Advisers are Public certified accountants. (In UK Chartered Accountants).  Dealing with the tax authorities without their support is definitely not recommended !

Your correct but even UK Chartered Accountants you need to be weary of. I don't trust anyone on this planet! Only myself

[shakespear]

I am considering moving somewhere in Eastern Europe and live off stock returns from my investments in my native country Sweden. I'm in the early stages of considering this and I haven't decided on a specific country to move to yet. However, I would like some general advice on what to think about if I decide to so. For example, would I be able to get a long term visa (maybe I could be considered a retired person and I could get a retiree's visa), would I need to set up some sort of local business that I would need to channel my earnings through, would I be taxed in my new country of residence in addition to being taxed in Sweden, etc. I'm aware of the risks associated with relying on this type of income and I don't want those to be discussed in this thread. Rather, I'm interested in the visa, tax, and administrative issues involved. Thanks in advance for any input.

Have you ever been to Moscow?

If not, go there.  Visit a place called NIGHT FLIGHT.  It is a Swedish owned fine restaurant and night club that has been open since 1991.  There will be 6-8 Swedish managers who live full time in Moscow and will be able to give you all the ins and outs about living as a Swedish x-pat in Russia, and explain it in your native language as well .  Gluggen is the General Manager.  Best to ask for him first. 

If you are lucky, you will get a chance to meet Tommy or Sonny the partners that actually own the establishment (along with the restaurant Scandinavia) who will be able to answer your most detailed questions.

Be sure to tell them that Brad Sharp recommended that you stop by.  They are all good friends of mine.   

[Robert1974]

Thanks for all your replies. In the EU I don't see any problems (unless France tears the Schengen agreement apart), I can stay there for a while as a tourist and still pay tax in Sweden. If I decide to stay indefinitely in any country, I would have to start paying tax in my new country even though my investments are in Swedish companies through a Swedish stock broker. I even found a web page that details the taxation on capital gains in different countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_gains_tax. However, if things don't work out in EU-countries and I'm left to non-EU-countries, how would you recommend I solve the visa issues? Is it a good idea to get a student visa and become a part time student to study the local language for a few semesters? Or should I try to find an English teacher job (yes, I have degrees from American universities) so I can get a work visa? Other ideas?

[Robert1974]

Can I get a longterm visa through bribing?

[Danchik]

Can I get a longterm visa through bribing?

It probably can still be done, but do you know the right people? I wouldn't advise it.

Why not work as a teacher; freelance. Language link is one of the schools that will sponsor your visa and let you work as you please. They may even give you some work should you want or need it. They only initially accept CV's with an interview arranged after approval.

If the visa issue is your only "real" problem, then IMO it's an issue that can be dealt with rather easily should you choose to do what is reasonably necessary.

Outside of marrying a Russian national, it is really your only option to stay in Russia long-term.

http://jobs.languagelink.ru

[Borsch]

Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I can tell from your previous posts, you haven't even started searching online yet despite registering here 3 years ago. If someone can't commit to $10 to $30/month for dating site subscriptions to test the waters I don't see them packing up life and moving somewhere else to meet people. You've also been asking these relocation questions since the start so you strike me as someone that is indecisive and lacks true commitment in this FSU venture.

FWIW, go to Ukraine on a 90 day tourist visa and reset the timer as required. Keep your earnings in Sweden to keep things simple.

[Maxx]

Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I can tell from your previous posts, you haven't even started searching online yet despite registering here 3 years ago. If someone can't commit to $10 to $30/month for dating site subscriptions to test the waters I don't see them packing up life and moving somewhere else to meet people. You've also been asking these relocation questions since the start so you strike me as someone that is indecisive and lacks true commitment in this FSU venture.

FWIW, go to Ukraine on a 90 day tourist visa and reset the timer as required. Keep your earnings in Sweden to keep things simple.

You describe a putzer and dreamer. I had a friend like that. He wanted to go with me when I went to Russia and meet some women but he was always cash short to even do the first step, get a passport. Like a dummy I helped him get his passport with the idea he had some money coming in. When it came time to buy his ticket his pockets were hanging out once again. He asked me if I would buy it for him. I told him "No." Later I noticed he would do online searches for yachts with his always breaking down computer. A computer in his in repair trailer parked on his parent's farm. I guess he was waiting for his inheritance to come in.         

[Robert1974]

Outside of marrying a Russian national, it is really your only option to stay in Russia long-term.

What about enrolling as a student and studying at 1/4 of fulltime study pace? Is that an option? I will need to learn Russian anyway so why not at a university.

FWIW, go to Ukraine on a 90 day tourist visa and reset the timer as required. Keep your earnings in Sweden to keep things simple.

Does the 90 days maximum every 180 days rule not apply to citizens of Schengen countries?