Being Russian is not just a matter of where one is born

[leslied]

Well my wife CERTAINLY remembers life in the Soviet union - she grew up in it !  (She is now 40's). 

Oddly enough she remembers that times were very good.  Her father was a senior officer in the Red Army.  The whole family were members of the Communist Party.  She attended special schools.  Teachers called her by her full Patronymic.  the family went on holiday twice a year.  Basically she wanted for nothing...

When the Soviet Union collapsed, times changed.  Life was much harder, especially after her father retired.  There were fewer new things, no holidays at health spars.  Life was still OK though,  they had a large apartment and a dacha.  Food not flowers were grown at the dacha though.  As time went on though life got tougher.

My wife talks about times around the great patriotic war as if she has personal memory of them.  Of course she does not but she had talked about these times extensively with her father, mother and older relatives.  This of course is "oral history"  I think Justmd's wife is talking in a similar way.  No need to denigrate this as invention.  My father told me of his personal experiences in WW11.  If asked I can talk about them.  You won't find any such tales in history books...

 

[andrewfi]

You make my point Les. Your wife is in her 40's!
She was already in her mid to late teens when the Soviet Union shut up shop. I'd be very surprised if she was NOT able to recall what was going on, she was among the youngest part of the generation for whom the social contract was broken, many of the slightly older ones never recovered fully, lives blighted even today.

But also, she is telling you the stuff that was true for most folks at the time. Friends of mine of that age recall the Soviet times with fondness because, for most people, quality of life was good. One did not have to work too hard, there was food, housing, health care, education and the opportunity for advancement if one wanted it. Folks remembered being able to take time out to go fishing, to enjoy the countryside with friends, shared cultural activities.

For most the shitty stuff came later, after society broke down. Albeit that during the final stages things were no longer as they had been in the mid 80's and earlier, but they still were not shitty, just not as good.

Funny thing though, our memories get programmed. We see that all the time - there's a good reason why eye witnesses are, as any copper will tell you, about the worst kind of witness.

I was not suggesting Justmd's wife invented anything. Please read what I wrote and compare to what you just wrote about yourself.

[msmoby]

Time for the other side of the coin..

All too many Russians looked down their noses at 'Russians' who aren't 'true Russians' ..By this this meant Baltic State and Southern Republic 'Russians' who hadn't been born in Russia and never been there.


 

[yankee]

My wife is in her late 50s (dont let her know I said this!).  She has nothing but good memories of Soviet time.

[andrewfi]

My wife is in her late 50s (dont let her know I said this!).  She has nothing but good memories of Soviet time.

Here's the hidden secret. The one that you're not supposed to know about!

For most people, most of the time, life in the Soviet Union was not at all bad. For almost everyone their lives were significantly better than their parents or grandparents. That improvement is what is important - that improvement (or lack thereof) is why the Mail Order Bride Business sprang up and later died out!

There was not the western concentration upon 'stuff'.
The people who ended up in 'Gulags' were there because they deserved to be there. People had very little sympathy for them.

Most people are interested in HOME, FAMILY, WORK - not much else.

Of course there is a tendency to see the past through rose coloured spectacles, but that's universal.

[Dogsoldier]

Memory is fickle. Bad stuff gets filtered often. What's left are 'the good old days'.

[yankee]

Memory is fickle. Bad stuff gets filtered often. What's left are 'the good old days'.

Andrew and Dogsoldier,
You should feel lucky you did not make your comments regarding my wife’s comments about Soviet times.

Let’s just say you would not like to go where she suggested.

I believe she also made reference to your lack of intelligence.

nuff said.

[Dogsoldier]

Memory is fickle. Bad stuff gets filtered often. What's left are 'the good old days'.

Andrew and Dogsoldier,
You should feel lucky you did not make your comments regarding my wife’s comments about Soviet times.

Let’s just say you would not like to go where she suggested.

I believe she also made reference to your lack of intelligence.

nuff said.

Perhaps your good lady did not quite understand what I was referring to?

[yankee]

Memory is fickle. Bad stuff gets filtered often. What's left are 'the good old days'.

Andrew and Dogsoldier,
You should feel lucky you did not make your comments regarding my wife’s comments about Soviet times.

Let’s just say you would not like to go where she suggested.

I believe she also made reference to your lack of intelligence.

nuff said.

Perhaps your good lady did not quite understand what I was referring to?

What you said was not in very good taste.  My wife remembers not only "the good old days" but also the "bad old days".   

[Dogsoldier]

Memory is fickle. Bad stuff gets filtered often. What's left are 'the good old days'.

Andrew and Dogsoldier,
You should feel lucky you did not make your comments regarding my wife’s comments about Soviet times.

Let’s just say you would not like to go where she suggested.

I believe she also made reference to your lack of intelligence.

nuff said.

Perhaps your good lady did not quite understand what I was referring to?

What you said was not in very good taste.  My wife remembers not only "the good old days" but also the "bad old days".

I really don't get why your wife would have a problem. It wasn't aimed at her or her recollections. My comment was a general one expressing quite a well accepted truism.
People usually talk about 'the good old days' not 'the bad old days'.

[jake11]

Having the Communist Party of the Old Soviet Union allowed to be the only political party to field candidates during elections is a manifestation not only of crudity but also tyranny. Even a 7 year old Russian would succeed in arguing that 'the commissars do not allow any party to run except CPSU because they know they will lose'. Any comment like this during those days would surely merit exile to Siberia even for a 12 year old. Yes, being Russian is not a matter of where you're born but being Russian is not being CPSU, the most ruthless political party in the history of Russia.

[andrewfi]

Yankee, when making up a story take care to be consistent.
Telling us that your wife has nothing but good memories is not consistent with remembering bad times as well as good when the time context is the same.

Do you want to have a do over and tell us the truth this time?

There is no earthly reason why your wife should be upset about what was written by Dogsoldier or I given what you reported to us.

Consistency is the mark of an honest man.

[msmoby]

For most people, most of the time, life in the Soviet Union was not at all bad. For almost everyone their lives were significantly better than their parents or grandparents.

V would regale how awful the last five years of the FSU were ..the queuing because it must be something worth queuing for.

That improvement is what is important - that improvement (or lack thereof) is why the Mail Order Bride Business sprang up and later died out!

it sprang up just as much because of a broadening of choice and the certain 'something' that those who have shared lives with a FSU partner experience ... the demand moved away from marriage brokers and to international dating sites.

There was not the western concentration upon 'stuff'.

You forgot the craze for Levi jeans  ?..That smoking western cigarette brands suggested 'status'  ?

The people who ended up in 'Gulags' were there because they deserved to be there.

are you being serious - hardly 'honest' ...

People had very little sympathy for them.

Most people are interested in HOME, FAMILY, WORK - not much else.

Keeping their heads down - more like - the apathy desired by the regime

Of course there is a tendency to see the past through rose coloured spectacles, but that's universal.

Suggest members pick up 'One day in the life of Ivan Denisovich' - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn... Then we can discuss andrewfi's contentions

[yankee]

Yankee, when making up a story take care to be consistent.
Telling us that your wife has nothing but good memories is not consistent with remembering bad times as well as good when the time context is the same.

Do you want to have a do over and tell us the truth this time?

There is no earthly reason why your wife should be upset about what was written by Dogsoldier or I given what you reported to us.

Consistency is the mark of an honest man.

Sorry boys, my wife stands by what she said.  She does not need to “prove anything” to either one of you gentlemen. 
I will repeat for you “She has nothing but good memories of Soviet time.”
Now what part of that do you disagree with?

For both of you to disagree with her is laughable.

[Maxx]

Consistency is the mark of an honest man.

I disagree. We remember things differently at times. I can look back at times of my life with nostalgia like childhood and then later remember some dark event that happened then that came and went. It doesn't mean I am being dishonest by presenting that time as wonderful and happy. I imagine during the Soviet era there were people who were quite content with the system. Just as veterans are about the military at the Foreign Legion (I bet didn't feel that way during boot camp). Now in the rough and tumble world of capitalism these same people long for the time when things were simpler and more "secure" and forget about the little things that weren't so nice.

[jake11]

Just like how pro-capitalists were forced to fit in during Stalin, so must communists endeavor to fit in during these days. A pro-capitalist has no recourse under Stalin but a communist has recourse during these days. Russian Bill of Rights: right to association, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom to vote, non-discrimination based on political belief, non-discrimination based on sexual orientation, freedom from frisking, freedom not to be indicted if evidence was obtained without warrant, and so many many rights and guarantees not afforded to them by Stalin. If the people do not want to vote for your party you must be satisfied you can field communist candidates under the new system. And now you say...etc. etc.

When a person can eat only once or twice a day and still votes for Putin, then there must really be something wrong with communism. As the Lord Prayer says, " ..give us this DAY our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses,..." From my 22 year old nephew: "Why would I go Stalin when I go hungry, when it was Stalin's god who made me hungry" and the hungrier I get when he gets into power..." True and logical!

[andrewfi]

Consistency is the mark of an honest man.

I disagree. We remember things differently at times. I can look back at times of my life with nostalgia like childhood and then later remember some dark event that happened then that came and went. It doesn't mean I am being dishonest by presenting that time as wonderful and happy. I imagine during the Soviet era there were people who were quite content with the system. Just as veterans are about the military at the Foreign Legion (I bet didn't feel that way during boot camp). Now in the rough and tumble world of capitalism these same people long for the time when things were simpler and more "secure" and forget about the little things that weren't so nice.

I was not referring to what any other person was writing except Yankee. Yankee made two claims reporting his wife's situation that were not consistent and that could not both exist, truthfully, in the same context.

An honest man can, and will, be consistent in what he says over a period of decades because he does not have to remember his story. Each time it comes from his lips fresh, and yet the same as before.

One can not at the same time 'remember only good things' and also 'remember good and bad' when referring to the same period of time. The first statement precludes the second from being true and the second the first.

That is why consistency is important.

it is a little thing, such a little thing that it makes no difference to my life - or anyone else's I guess, so why did Yankee choose to be inconsistent? What was his motivation?

[Dogsoldier]

Yankee, when making up a story take care to be consistent.
Telling us that your wife has nothing but good memories is not consistent with remembering bad times as well as good when the time context is the same.

Do you want to have a do over and tell us the truth this time?

There is no earthly reason why your wife should be upset about what was written by Dogsoldier or I given what you reported to us.

Consistency is the mark of an honest man.

Sorry boys, my wife stands by what she said.  She does not need to “prove anything” to either one of you gentlemen. 
I will repeat for you “She has nothing but good memories of Soviet time.”
Now what part of that do you disagree with?

For both of you to disagree with her is laughable.

Well, sadly, she is being dishonest here and so are you. We need not expand on why.

[andrewfi]

Yankee, I have no reason to doubt your wife! Please read what YOU wrote. You told us both that she only remembers good things and then you told us she remembers both good and bad things from those days. What you told us can not be true.

Nothing to do with your wife.

Frankly I think you are making stuff up to suit your narrative. I  have no idea why you'd do so. It seems to me that your first report of your wife's words fully accords with my understanding of how things were at the time. Also, given that your wife is not young it is reasonable to assume that she was aware of the environment in which she lived.

Why you chose to attribute to your wife statements that can not both be true is a mystery to me. But that's where consistency becomes an issue, you forgot what you had previously written.

[Maxx]

The way I see it is she chooses to remember the good times. She chooses to present them to yankee that way. But she probably can recall standing in a line for T.P.

I am about make a trip report (in 5 weeks 5 days). I am thinking of making two. One that emphases all the good aspects of Georgia and the other that gets into the nitty gritty of the negative aspects of the place. I wouldn't see that the later makes the former dishonest. Frankly it makes for good mental heath to concentrate on the good and push off the bad and keep them separate in mind and word.

[yankee]

The way I see it is she chooses to remember the good times. She chooses to present them to yankee that way. But she probably can recall standing in a line for T.P.

I am about make a trip report (in 5 weeks 5 days). I am thinking of making two. One that emphases all the good aspects of Georgia and the other that gets into the nitty gritty of the negative aspects of the place. I wouldn't see that the later makes the former dishonest. Frankly it makes for good mental heath to concentrate on the good and push off the bad and keep them separate in mind and word.

She never had to stand in line nor her mother.

[jake11]

Ya, it was really a genuine dictatorship of the proletariat, 'led by the Party'. If it were the other way around, the bourgeoisie would not also fall in line while Yankee would fall in line. But how come the lumpen proletariat were taken for granted, sir yankee. If Stalin and Lenin did really have 'souls', the lowest strata of the classless society must also be accommodated. Marx said, 'property hath no rights'. With the same vigor, the lumpen thief and beggar must have really said that and that there were reasons for them. They went hungry because of 'capitalism'.   :)Same crude behaviour as the capitalist, sir yankee.

[Dogsoldier]

The way I see it is she chooses to remember the good times. She chooses to present them to yankee that way. But she probably can recall standing in a line for T.P.

I am about make a trip report (in 5 weeks 5 days). I am thinking of making two. One that emphases all the good aspects of Georgia and the other that gets into the nitty gritty of the negative aspects of the place. I wouldn't see that the later makes the former dishonest. Frankly it makes for good mental heath to concentrate on the good and push off the bad and keep them separate in mind and word.

She never had to stand in line nor her mother.

And that represents the good old times? Or is that her recollection of the bad old times?

[jake11]

To reduce the common folk to beggary can be gleaned by the way the Americans vote Conservative majority and the Russians vote social democratic. "You do not want to vote for us in CPSU, then I will punish you. No consumer goods nor wet markets for you"- Josef Stalin and Politburo. Logical and true! Vindictiveness is a sin laid down in the Bible. 

"Anybody who does know how to forgive is worse than a murderer and I will not forgive"- God, Bible.

[leslied]

Gentlemen,

We have a "storm in a teacup" here.  Please treat it as such...