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Author Topic: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language  (Read 17075 times)

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Online Markje

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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2015, 02:25:16 PM »
Thanks, Markje!  :thumbsup:
Btw. I almost forgot: When I talk about Dutch in that post, I mean ABN (Algemeen beschaafd Nederlands = Common civilized Dutch).

Excellent wikipedia page on the Dutch language : The Dutch version is even better, but this one is in English:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_dialects

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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2015, 02:54:54 PM »
Thanks, Markje!  :thumbsup:
Btw. I almost forgot: When I talk about Dutch in that post, I mean ABN (Algemeen beschaafd Nederlands = Common civilized Dutch).

Excellent wikipedia page on the Dutch language : The Dutch version is even better, but this one is in English:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_dialects

Thank you, Markje  :)
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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2015, 03:11:34 PM »
Skateboard in Flemish = Rolplankje

You find familiar words in all languages. I assume "Rolplankje" comes from "roll plank", ie, a plank that rolls. 

One of my Dutch pals used to call a wheelchair a "roller chair", my bet is that is a literal translation from Dutch.
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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2015, 03:17:55 PM »
Thanks, Markje!  :thumbsup:
Btw. I almost forgot: When I talk about Dutch in that post, I mean ABN (Algemeen beschaafd Nederlands = Common civilized Dutch).

Excellent wikipedia page on the Dutch language : The Dutch version is even better, but this one is in English:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_dialects

And 'Dutch' is 'Deutsche' nearly, from Deus - i.e. God ISTR...
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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2015, 03:18:39 PM »
Skateboard in Flemish = Rolplankje

You find familiar words in all languages. I assume "Rolplankje" comes from "roll plank", ie, a plank that rolls. 

One of my Dutch pals used to call a wheelchair a "roller chair", my bet is that is a literal translation from Dutch.
Yes it is, there is even a facebook page with "Denglish" its named "Make that the cat wise".

Roller chair = Rolstoel in Dutch, which is indeed the valid word for wheel chair.
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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2015, 10:25:31 PM »
Ukrainian is, of course, a different language, not a dialect. Why it may sound "funny" to some is probably because it is very close and often sounds like Russian, but it is not a formal Russian. People subconsciously associate it with slang or provincial dialects, hence the "funny" reaction.

Slavic languages generally have many commonalities. Recently I was on a plane with a Serb flying to Montreal who did not know a word of English or French. I was helping him with the declaration card and to communicate with flight attendants. I never learned Serbian, but I could understand all the words he was saying and he could understand mine (Russian).

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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2015, 01:03:44 AM »
Just watched a fantastic documentary about an elderly Russian lady who's family fled  Religious persecution in Soviet Times. They settled in the Russian Republic of Khakassia, Siberia.

The lady - Agafia - 70 years old - is the last remaining member of the family of 'old believers' and speaks Old Slavonic and Russian.

On tv is ruined by advertising breaks - so I recommend watching the internet version

http://rtd.rt.com/films/agafia/ 
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Online AvHdB

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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2015, 08:12:10 AM »
Markje, Sums up the reality regarding Dutch/Flemish quite well.

But I will tell a true story regarding the two folk.

Back in the 80's as a youngish expert I needed to get an expertise on a painting. The expert lived in the old part of Antwerp and he gave detailed instructions on how to get his home/office. Park here walk so many meters in this direction and than turn here, it involved walking by some cafe's, a graveyard and passing a small church.

Just before departing The Hague considering the value involved I asked and the owner of the firm and he felt it was a good idea that I should take a University student as an assistant. My Dutch while good was far from perfect. And I did not know Antwerp at all. Well I could always find the Leonidas shop.

Sure enough in Antwerp we became disoriented and could not find the side street where the expert lived. As the time for the meeting approached I told the student to ask some one who looked local in they knew where this "steeg" alleyway was . He stopped two business looking locals with the question if they knew where this address was.

They responded yes, but than added we have a question for you. They asked him, are you Dutch?

He responded yes, where upon they said than we are not going to tell you the directions, and walked away.

It took me a minute to stop laughing.

My guess people will identify there nationality by history and language. I am confident a large number of posters from Europe will consider Belgium a rather screwed up country. But every continent needs a Belgium. In fact Brussels has become the Paris of the North due to tax issues in France.

What I consistently have heard and understand is that Ukraine is a more technical language and the average Russian speaker has a hard time speaking Ukraine. The same holds true for Flemish. A Ukraine speaker can understand and speak Russian but not vice versa. The same analogy holds true between Dutch and Flemish.

Certainly with the current difficulties between Russian and Ukraine the language issue has become more polarized. If only the two groups were using verbs and nouns instead of mortars and bullets we all would have fortunately less to debate.

NB: I might be wrong but Frysian (no not cow talk) is a distinct separate language. As I understand for a country of 16+ million the Dutch have several dialects. The northern part of Groningen has a unique dialect and down in Limburg (no not the cheese country) has another one. It is fortunate the two rarely meet.
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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2015, 09:12:59 AM »
AvHdB, the important question

did you make you meeting on time in Antwerp ?))

I had no idea of the animosity between Flemish and Dutch... I could understand something between Walloons and Flemish people or Flemish..hate to say Flems .. and the French..

Back on topic..Russians/ eth Russians, if you like.. didn't have a need to learn Ukrainian until recently. Ukrainians more or less had to know Russian..as did Poles, E.Germans, etc.

I have watched an ekderly Polish lady converse with Czechs and Ukrainians and the poor young Russian need help to keep up.

Up until then I had no idea that Russian was so dissimilar.

British / Irish people are so clueless about our S.and E. European neighbours.. and rely on Germans and Scandavians to know English!)


The UA language is more easily understood by peoples speaking languages that have evolved less than Russian...




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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2015, 12:52:51 PM »

Sure enough in Antwerp we became disoriented and could not find the side street where the expert lived. As the time for the meeting approached I told the student to ask some one who looked local in they knew where this "steeg" alleyway was . He stopped two business looking locals with the question if they knew where this address was.

They responded yes, but than added we have a question for you. They asked him, are you Dutch?

He responded yes, where upon they said than we are not going to tell you the directions, and walked away.

:ROFL:


 Oh, those Dutch...  >:( ;D I mean, seriously, you go just like that to the shtetl city, you don't bother to switch to the local language (yiddishe) and you push your own business PAINTINGS?!  :eeekk: where every decent hasid citizen is in the business with jewels and diamonds?! Now, that's what we call chutzpah!  :GRRRR:

If seriously, i love Antwerp, but it is quite specific...  ;D

Quote
Certainly with the current difficulties between Russian and Ukraine the language issue has become more polarized. If only the two groups were using verbs and nouns instead of mortars and bullets we all would have fortunately less to debate.

You know what i noticed? Being exposed to others' culture plays a big part. While we had movies and shows in Serbian on tv in all former Yugoslav republics, everyone was picking up the words and could speak, despite the subtitles, also the cultures were intertwined, theaters were touring, bands playing all over and so on, it's not the case anymore, at least not en masse, and the younger generations understand each other not more than they understand Poles or Russians (i am speaking of Macedonians and Slovenians whose languages are quite distinct from the rest.)




I had no idea of the animosity between Flemish and Dutch...

It is sensitive, i became aware of it in Belgium, that's why i asked the guys to tell us more about it. You need to be careful if speaking to Flemish, not to say something like they in fact speak Dutch language; i didn't have the time to get too deep into it, why is it so, but i got it quite quickly it's something where you'd want to be careful  :biggrin:
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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2015, 01:14:25 PM »
I remember a sketch on Monty Python's Flying Circus where they had to vote for a derogatory name for Belgians, the winner was 'The Phlegms'....
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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2015, 01:27:16 PM »
There is an interesting article from the Boston Globe (of all places) on the subject here: The long war over the Ukrainian language: Don’t call it Little Russian. Why the [sic] Ukraine’s lingua franca is a hot point

Several quotes stood out:

Quote
the 1863 Valuev Circular, a decree suspending the publication of many religious and educational texts in Ukrainian, or as the Russians called it, Little Russian: “a separate Little Russian language has never existed, does not exist and cannot exist.” The other is a quote attributed to Czar Nicholas II: “There is no Ukrainian language, just illiterate peasants speaking Little Russian.”

Quote
It’s true that the distinction between a language and a dialect is notoriously slippery, often more about politics than mutual intelligibility or shared vocabulary.

Quote
In the West, it’s generally agreed that Ukrainian and Russian are separate languages, with 38 percent of their lexicon differing.

Quote
Some Russian linguists, however, tell the story differently: They claim that the East Slavic ancestor was in fact a form of Russian, making Russian not a sibling, but rather the mother tongue from which the other languages descended.

Quote
Ukrainian and Russian are today closer than they were a hundred years ago due to Soviet Russification, and somewhat mutually intelligible—speakers in Ukraine often switch back and forth from one to the other. Flier told me that many Russians claim they understand Ukrainian, partly as a way of demoting it to dialect status.

The Wiki page on the Ukrainian language, whilst informative, serves only to muddy the water by detailing ten sub-dialects of Ukrainian.

Another interesting quote I found:

Quote
Someone once told me that a language is simply a dialect, plus an army. In the case of Ukrainian's relationship to Russian, this probably isn't true. All modern linguists agree that Ukrainian and Russian are separate languages that diverged from a common source many centuries ago. (To be specific, during the 13th century, two major dialects of Rus began to arise. The northeast dialect was the basis for the future Russian language, while the southwest dialect was the basis for the future Ruthenian language, which in turn developed into Ukrainian.) Nevertheless, from a historical perspective, the Ukrainian language has served both as a galvanizing factor motivating people who believed in the need for an independent Ukraine, and as a source of contention for those seeking to diminish the prospects for Ukrainian statehood. What a unique, complicated situation.

From here: Is a language simply a dialect, plus an army?

Separate language or regional Russian dialect? I guess it depends who you are and how you form your views on the region. I think we have here what is known as an aporia.
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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2015, 01:47:18 PM »

Separate language or regional Russian dialect? I guess it depends who you are and how you form your views on the region. I think we have here what is known as an aporia.

If you think the latter - then you have you political hat on..

More pragmatic types can understand they are from a common origin and one - Russian has evolved more

If you 'doubt' me - simply observe the science of closeness - Russian is more distant from Ukrainian than Polish / Belarusian / Slovak / Serbo-Croat / Slovak ...
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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2015, 02:10:33 PM »
If you think the latter - then you have you political hat on..

More pragmatic types can understand they are from a common origin and one - Russian has evolved more

I just added an extra quote above while you were replying (the last one). Which probably seems closer to the mark. This bit especially:

Quote
All modern linguists agree that Ukrainian and Russian are separate languages that diverged from a common source many centuries ago. (To be specific, during the 13th century, two major dialects of Rus began to arise. The northeast dialect was the basis for the future Russian language, while the southwest dialect was the basis for the future Ruthenian language, which in turn developed into Ukrainian.)

The subject interested me, why I was doing some reading up on it. We know that they share 60 something percent of words, but the evolution of the two as different entities makes me now err on the side of them being different languages rather than Ukrainian being a Russian dialect. However, that would be whatever might be "pure Ukrainian", as the articles linked point out, there are ten sub dialects of Ukrainian, and many people speak a type of Russian/Ukrainian creole in day to day life. As the girl in the last article I linked, who is learning 'proper' Ukrainian wrote:

Quote
My professor even warned us that our knowledge of Ukrainian may be more "correct" than many native speakers', simply because our ears haven't been tainted by Russian.

If, as I read, people are mostly speaking some kind of creole, this explains why there are no communication issues between any Ukrainians and Russians that I ever met.

I recall when my wife was translating on three way calls, most women (probably 90%) were in Ukraine, and there were seldom any communication issues (which you may attribute to Russian being widely understood/used and of no relevance to the Ukrainian language per se). However, I do remember one woman she spoke to in a very rural place, who apparently only spoke Ukrainian (or refused to speak Russian more likely, as she understood wifey well enough).

She came off the phone after an hour like this:  :drunk:

She had to ask the girl to clarify certain things several times in order that she could interpret her words into English properly. She described it as very dirty Russian with some other words thrown in. While manageable in general conversation, when a guy is drilling down into details (as they correctly do on three way calls sometimes), it sometimes involves words or construction not used every day. Three way calls can be draining at the best of times, with that added complication thrown in, I don't blame her for taking a paracetamol and going to bed after that one.  :nod:
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Online andrewfi

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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2015, 02:32:22 PM »
Waaay upthread I made the point that Ukrainian/Russian was a political thing and, as we can see that is very much the case.

Personally it does not matter much becasue we also know that whatever it is whether one calls oneself Russian or Ukrainian each can speak their own language and be understood by the other. That the two forms are further muddied by a creoleisation is also to be expected, it isn't unique to Ukraine for this to happen, it is what people do when they want to be understood - for example, when I am with some folks I will use English with some Russian words, with a former girlfriend we used a mixture of Russian, English and Italian. A mutual friend, a linguist as it happens, was very surprised at how well we understood each other- in fact we each understood reach other better than we each thought we did as we found out when our friend was helping us with a falling out we had. So, for folks in a mixed language/dialect environment to not do as we did would be much more surprising than if they didn't

In the end though whether they are a pair of discrete languages or dialects of the same language is less important than the politics that is involved in creating and emphasising difference that did not exist only a few months ago. A whole nation, millions of people, are being manipulated to think in a particular way and to feel a particular set of emotions. Language is just one of the tools being used in this manipulative process - and that sucks.

As a personal note though, it seems to me that any language that shares more than 60% of vocabulary with another can hardly be seen to be a separate thing. Whatever you call the two they are a variation each of the other.
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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2015, 02:47:38 PM »


I just added an extra quote above while you were replying (the last one). Which probably seems closer to the mark. This bit especially:

All modern linguists agree that Ukrainian and Russian are separate languages that diverged from a common source many centuries ago. (To be specific, during the 13th century, two major dialects of Rus began to arise. The northeast dialect was the basis for the future Russian language, while the southwest dialect was the basis for the future Ruthenian language, which in turn developed into Ukrainian.)

Good, we agree on something  :thumbsup:


I recall when my wife was translating on three way calls, most women (probably 90%) were in Ukraine, and there were seldom any communication issues (which you may attribute to Russian being widely understood/used and of no relevance to the Ukrainian language per se). However, I do remember one woman she spoke to in a very rural place, who apparently only spoke Ukrainian (or refused to speak Russian more likely, as she understood wifey well enough).

Manny, many Russians are extremely snooty  / mock the Ukrainian language - they think it sounds bucolic . Those that are  / were close to me think / thought like this and it has always shocked me  - the 'arrogance' that it is assumed that Ukrainian is a poor derivative of Russian.

I even accepted this - until I met the Russian Professor of Methodology of Languages

She came off the phone after an hour like this:  :drunk:

She had to ask the girl to clarify certain things several times in order that she could interpret her words into English properly. She described it as very dirty Russian with some other words thrown in. While manageable in general conversation, when a guy is drilling down into details (as they correctly do on three way calls sometimes), it sometimes involves words or construction not used every day. Three way calls can be draining at the best of times, with that added complication thrown in, I don't blame her for taking a paracetamol and going to bed after that one.  :nod:

Someone close to me used to say, 'Ukrainians cannot be trusted and even their language is inferior to ours' ... this long pre-dated the current problems between the two nations.  The irony was they had a Ukrainian surname - via marriage.

That person now lives with a Ukrainian and has a much more enlightened view.

For sure, your wife must have encountered someone who had a 'thing' about Russian speakers or was a sandwich short of a picnic.


I found this article on Wiki - which was interesting

It reckons that - GENETICALLY- Poles / Ukrainians / Belarusians and Northern Russians are VERY similar and how the Eastern Slavonic languages split into two - Russian being distinct from Ukrainian, Polish etc.  So when we hear how daft it is that Slavs should be killing each other - they are correct

A similar genetic study in the British isles proved that N.Ireland was made up of two distinct ethnic groupings - those 'planted from England and Scotland and  those of Celtic Origin - but the Celts of Cornwall  are closer to Scottish or the English than the Irish !

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-31905764
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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2015, 03:41:10 PM »
That the two forms are further muddied by a creoleisation is also to be expected, it isn't unique to Ukraine for this to happen, it is what people do when they want to be understood - for example, when I am with some folks I will use English with some Russian words, with a former girlfriend we used a mixture of Russian, English and Italian. A mutual friend, a linguist as it happens, was very surprised at how well we understood each other- in fact we each understood reach other better than we each thought we did

I had this with my father in law. He was in the army in Germany once upon a time and managed to learn German. I learned German in school and forgot most of it. Or at least, I thought I did. I learned a bit of Russian, he learned a bit of English. Between us, we have a lingo we both understand that is a mix of German, English and Russian. We understand each other, but my wife thinks it is gibberish. He and I are to be found creased up laughing about something, opening another bottle, as wifey and Mamulka do this.  (:)
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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2015, 10:01:02 PM »

As a personal note though, it seems to me that any language that shares more than 60% of vocabulary with another can hardly be seen to be a separate thing. Whatever you call the two they are a variation each of the other.

What is the percentage of words in English of German origin? More than 50%? Can we claim it's the same language? I guess not  :biggrin:

We all (most languages spoken in Europe) go back to Indo-European language and you'll find similarities where you don't really expect them - Sanskrit and Serbian for example  ???

And while we could probably file many of the languages under the 'common denominator', for easier handling so to say, from the point of view of linguistics they are not the same thing.

There is another theory, mostly abandoned by now, that there wasn't a common language (Indo-European), but that various nations developed sorts of pidgin (or creole as Manny puts it) where they had borders and developed trade, that makes sense too, to me personally (to most contemporary linguists it does not.)

True, sometimes differences are developed and fostered in 'unnatural' ways, like it was the case with Croatian after the break out of ex YU, but that too serves national goals that at some point of time are viewed as important and even deciding.

Another sides we dismiss in the discussion: grammar, which is as important as vocabulary; why is it that Bulgarian stands apart - well, they actively use 9 tenses, which is not the case with any other Slavic language and is a disaster (for example) for a native Russian speaker to learn;
the definite article, the lack of cases etc.,
true, vocabulary is indeed mostly of Slavic origin, but does it help all that much? Not really.

And not to forget: the mindset. I won't go into too many details and a cognitive analyzes in differences between Montenegrin and Serbian for example, but, while you use exactly the same words, you are saying one thing in Belgrade and all another in Podgorica, the context is very different, the 'weight' words carry is all another, and the response you'll get will be all another.

Another side of the coin - different languages grouped as one, Italian dialects for example. If you studied standard Florentine (as a foreigner), i bet you that you don't have a chance of understanding Calabrian, it's literally another language, yet for purposes of national unification it goes denoted as one.

Ours used to be grouped as Serbo-Croatian, now it's 4 languages, as it was before the founding of Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians, and it's later derivatives.

Tower of Babel, anyone?  ;D

It's not in vain that last 50+ years entire philosophy is based on the language itself, these topics are most interesting and endless.

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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2015, 10:10:04 PM »

As a personal note though, it seems to me that any language that shares more than 60% of vocabulary with another can hardly be seen to be a separate thing. Whatever you call the two they are a variation each of the other.

What is the percentage of words in English of German origin? More than 50%? Can we claim it's the same language? I guess not  :biggrin:

We all (most languages spoken in Europe) go back to Indo-European language and you'll find similarities where you don't really expect them - Sanskrit and Serbian for example  ???

And while we could probably file many of the languages under the 'common denominator', for easier handling so to say, from the point of view of linguistics they are not the same thing.

There is another theory, mostly abandoned by now, that there wasn't a common language (Indo-European), but that various nations developed sorts of pidgin (or creole as Manny puts it) where they had borders and developed trade, that makes sense too, to me personally (to most contemporary linguists it does not.)

True, sometimes differences are developed and fostered in 'unnatural' ways, like it was the case with Croatian after the break out of ex YU, but that too serves national goals that at some point of time are viewed as important and even deciding.

Another sides we dismiss in the discussion: grammar, which is as important as vocabulary; why is it that Bulgarian stands apart - well, they actively use 9 tenses, which is not the case with any other Slavic language and is a disaster (for example) for a native Russian speaker to learn;
the definite article, the lack of cases etc.,
true, vocabulary is indeed mostly of Slavic origin, but does it help all that much? Not really.

And not to forget: the mindset. I won't go into too many details and a cognitive analyzes in differences between Montenegrin and Serbian for example, but, while you use exactly the same words, you are saying one thing in Belgrade and all another in Podgorica, the context is very different, the 'weight' words carry is all another, and the response you'll get will be all another.

Another side of the coin - different languages grouped as one, Italian dialects for example. If you studied standard Florentine (as a foreigner), i bet you that you don't have a chance of understanding Calabrian, it's literally another language, yet for purposes of national unification it goes denoted as one.

Ours used to be grouped as Serbo-Croatian, now it's 4 languages, as it was before the founding of Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians, and it's later derivatives.

Tower of Babel, anyone?  ;D

It's not in vain that last 50+ years entire philosophy is based on the language itself, these topics are most interesting and endless.

Did i mention i love this discussion? Just saying, in case it wasn't obvious ... :king:

hi Volshe,
This discussion is wrought with confusion, thanks for making some sense of it.  Above Andrew states that the differences between the two languages are based on politics.  Certainly there is some truth to this and more now then prior, however it seems that looking at the "father" of the language might be helpful.  It seems that Taras Shevchenko is the father of Ukrainian literature so there must be more than the political differences.  I would be very interested to hear your opinions about this.  Please pardon if you touched on it up thread as I don't seem to have the patience to wade through all of this.   :king:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taras_Shevchenko


Testament (Zapovit)

When I am dead, bury me
 In my beloved Ukraine,
 My tomb upon a grave mound high
 Amid the spreading plain,
 So that the fields, the boundless steppes,
 The Dnieper's plunging shore
 My eyes could see, my ears could hear
 The mighty river roar.

When from Ukraine the Dnieper bears
 Into the deep blue sea
 The blood of foes ... then will I leave
 These hills and fertile fields --
 I'll leave them all and fly away
 To the abode of God,
 And then I'll pray .... But until that day
 I know nothing of God.

Oh bury me, then rise ye up
 And break your heavy chains
 And water with the tyrants' blood
 The freedom you have gained.
 And in the great new family,
 The family of the free,
 With softly spoken, kindly word
 Remember also me.

— Taras Shevchenko,
 25 December 1845, PereiaslavTranslated by John Weir,[62] Toronto, 1961         
Заповіт

Як умру, то поховайте
 Мене на могилі,
Серед степу широкого,
На Вкраїні милій,
Щоб лани широкополі,
І Дніпро, і кручі
 Було видно, було чути,
Як реве ревучий.

Як понесе з України
 У синєє море
 Кров ворожу... отойді я
 І лани, і гори —
Все покину і полину
 До самого Бога
 Молитися... а до того
 Я не знаю Бога.

Поховайте та вставайте,
Кайдани порвіте
 І вражою злою кров'ю
 Волю окропіте.
І мене в сiм'ї великій,
В сiм'ї вольній, новій,
Не забудьте пом'янути
 Незлим тихим словом.
— Тарас ШЕВЧЕНКО25 грудня 1845,
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

Offline Volshe

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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2015, 10:19:51 PM »

This discussion is wrought with confusion, thanks for making some sense of it. 

Hi Anteros  :) Oh, i don't think it's a confusion, it's different opinions and all are valid. When you get the will/time google "linguistic wars", those are notorious!  Check out the two linguistic schools in USA, Chomsky and his entourage from MIT vs Berkeley (closer to my heart and more popular with leading Russian contemporary linguists).  :fighting0025: :trainwreck:  :laugh:

There is a bit of everything in the language, politics of course, after all, it's the language that distinguishes us from other species.
Also, it is an illusion that a language can be manipulated - to some extent for brief periods of time (historically brief that is, like Russian during Soviet era) yes, but not for long.
"I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by."
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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2015, 10:24:47 PM »

This discussion is wrought with confusion, thanks for making some sense of it. 

Hi Anteros  :) Oh, i don't think it's a confusion, it's different opinions and all are valid. When you get the will/time google "linguistic wars", those are notorious!  Check out the two linguistic schools in USA, Chomsky and his entourage from MIT vs Berkeley (closer to my heart and more popular with leading Russian contemporary linguists).  :fighting0025: :trainwreck:  :laugh:

There is a bit of everything in the language, politics of course, after all, it's the language that distinguishes us from other species.
Also, it is an illusion that a language can be manipulated - to some extent for brief periods of time (historically brief that is, like Russian during Soviet era) yes, but not for long.

Okay, so now let me be frank and ask you -- do you agree that there is indeed a distinct Ukrainian language and culture?  It seems to me that there definitely is and I don't know why Russians bother to continue to insult Ukrainians over the issue, as it clearly just makes them even more resolute than they were before to push away from Russia!   :popcorn:
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

Offline Volshe

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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2015, 10:35:59 PM »

Okay, so now let me be frank and ask you -- do you agree that there is indeed a distinct Ukrainian language and culture?

I won't give you an easy answer just because you were too lazy to read the thread, Anteros.  This is one of the most interesting, intellectual and calm discussions we had so far, so do share your own opinion when you have read the thread, as most of us invested a lot of time to explain our own here  :)
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Offline Anteros

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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #47 on: August 20, 2015, 10:37:12 PM »

Okay, so now let me be frank and ask you -- do you agree that there is indeed a distinct Ukrainian language and culture?

I won't give you an easy answer just because you were too lazy to read the thread, Anteros.  This is one of the most interesting, intellectual and calm discussions we had so far, so do share your own opinion when you have read the thread, as most of us invested a lot of time to explain our own here  :)

Ugggh!  You big meanie!  Mean Teacher!   :laugh:


PS... I already had read enough to know that we are in agreement and in fact I just skimmed it again and notice that Fashionista also agrees that Ukrainian is indeed a language unto itself and not a dialect.  Even Mark agrees with this.  Others seem intent on making political divisions.  Too bad for them.   :)  :GRRRR:   :-X
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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2015, 10:49:26 PM »

Okay, so now let me be frank and ask you -- do you agree that there is indeed a distinct Ukrainian language and culture?  It seems to me that there definitely is and I don't know why Russians bother to continue to insult Ukrainians over the issue, as it clearly just makes them even more resolute than they were before to push away from Russia!   :popcorn:

Anteros

This response will come as a shock to you.. This thread has managed to stay free of Politics. No bickering.

Your question is valid and if you ask it in a new thread - as you mention culture- which is linked - perhaps Volshe MIGHT respond. I would .. but not here.

This thread is great as it managed to be productive , informative and apolitical

I have never claimed to be a Blue Beret

Spurious claims about 'seeing action' with the Blue Berets are debunked >here<

Here is my Russophobia/Kremlinphobia topic

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Re: The difference Between Russian and Ukrainian Language
« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2015, 12:05:22 AM »
We all (most languages spoken in Europe) go back to Indo-European language and you'll find similarities where you don't really expect them - Sanskrit and Serbian for example  ???
Dutch also shares a lot of words with Russian with the same sound and the same meaning.

I wouldn't call Dutch a dialect of Russian though  :laugh:

Dutch - Russian
Kwartieren - Kvartiri
Documenten - Dokumenta (although in Dutch it can be any kind of Document, not necessarily official ones).
Stoel - Stol (Although lena gets this one wrong on rare occasions even after 5 years, because dutch sounds more like the Russian word for Table).
Stuurman - Sjturman (Found this one in the excellent Master-Margharita, Штурман Жорж)
Matroos - Matros
Gastarbeider - гастарбайтер

That last one was a google hit  :)
OO===[][]===OO
My first trip to my wife: To Evpatoria!
My road trip to Crimea: Roadtrip to Evpatoria


 

 

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