Right Sector. Poroshenko's Downfall?

[msmoby]

If your news is true - it's a bit like the Curate's egg - good and bad..

Shows a minority viewpoint cannot agree - but worrying what a disenfranchised bunch might try - when most can see it would only play into the hands of those who would have us believe it's the 'norm' ...

[Tom Cat]

Nothing was mentioned as to the cause of the explosion,  but I'm guessing it was no accident.

Poroshenko’s shop hit by explosion in Ukraine’s Kharkov

http://tass.ru/en/world/842513

[Tom Cat]

I was under the impression the right sector had only a small group of individuals involved. What ever the actual number is, they do seem to have free will to do as they want.


Ukraine's Post-Maidan Government Stands on Feet of Clay

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/maidan-mukachevo-evolution-ukraine-crisis/ri8885

[andrewfi]

I was under the impression the right sector had only a small group of individuals involved. What ever the actual number is, they do seem to have free will to do as they want.


Ukraine's Post-Maidan Government Stands on Feet of Clay

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/maidan-mukachevo-evolution-ukraine-crisis/ri8885

The number of people required to have a society changing effect is tiny. Combine that with that reality that Right Sector serves as an enforcement team for Kievan powers as well as having their own agenda and all of a sudden one has a group with power seemingly well beyond its visible 'popular' the support.

People became confused because of low electoral numbers. Electoral numbers were not an issue for Right Sector. Their power lies in their power over and connections to 'official' government.

[Slumba]

The logo appears to be the Wolfsangel - historic rune-like sign.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfsangel

Svoboda, according to Wikipedia at least, has about 15,000 members.  Out of a population of what, 40 million? 

They went from 37 seats in 2012 to 6 seats in the Oct. 2014 elections.

Is that really so very significant? 

Or is it basically like the "Westboro Baptist Church" in the USA which receives media attention insanely far out of proportion to its number of members?

[Markje]

The logo appears to be the Wolfsangel - historic rune-like sign.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfsangel

Their logo is that of the waffen-ss of the most brutal nazi squad.

Don't believe me? Turn the logo 90 degrees and see the 2 SS clear as day.

Plus images.google.com with SS Logo yields fantastic results of both real nazi's and svoboda logo :-)

Compare: First the real waffen SS:



Svoboda:

[Texan77]

The logo appears to be the Wolfsangel - historic rune-like sign.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfsangel

Svoboda, according to Wikipedia at least, has about 15,000 members.  Out of a population of what, 40 million? 

They went from 37 seats in 2012 to 6 seats in the Oct. 2014 elections.

Is that really so very significant? 

Or is it basically like the "Westboro Baptist Church" in the USA which receives media attention insanely far out of proportion to its number of members?

No it is not. It is only a big deal because it is Putin's justification to invade eastern Ukraine.

[Markje]

No it is not. It is only a big deal because it is Putin's justification to invade eastern Ukraine.

Putin didn't invade anything. And it is a big deal for much more reasons.

You should really, really, really read up on stuff like this. The fact that the "Democratic" world didn't cry foul is extremely worrying to me. I am already looking for options to avoid war personally. I expect Europe will be plunged in war sooner or (I hope) later.

[msmoby]

People became confused because of low electoral numbers. Electoral numbers were not an issue for Right Sector. Their power lies in their power over and connections to 'official' government.

'People' aren't confused... sure they have punched above their voting weight and their danger should not - totally -  be dismissed...

Folks like you seem to enjoy selectively  talking up only certain trouble making elements in  Ukraine's current mire....

[andrewfi]

When I read stuff like this from Texan77 I become more convinced that he does not know his 'girlfriend' anything like as well as he imagines. There is context here, provided by the thread in which he told us about his new purchase - actually this woman's purchase with his money.

[msmoby]

You must have forgotten.

Ukraine is a beacon of western democracy now. Porky was "voted" in. Uncle Sam has pumped millions in there, even paying the wage bill for Odessa's police force in their American uniforms. Its all tweety birds and patriotic types fighting off the Russian "aggressor" now. By singing probably. Westcoast will tell us those images are simply Russian propaganda. 

1/ Poroshenko WAS voted in -as were parties in govt

2/ the USA / EU and Russia - have all tried to influence UA politics - but only one of those groupings has physically intervened and grabbed territory

3/ Banging on about the 'fascists'/ 'Nazis' was the Kremlin agenda to polarise - that ship sailed.. do try keep up

[Manny]

You must have forgotten.

Ukraine is a beacon of western democracy now. Porky was "voted" in. Uncle Sam has pumped millions in there, even paying the wage bill for Odessa's police force in their American uniforms. Its all tweety birds and patriotic types fighting off the Russian "aggressor" now. By singing probably. Westcoast will tell us those images are simply Russian propaganda. 

1/ Poroshenko WAS voted in -as were parties in govt

Gotta love your double standards. So Porky was "voted" in despite the fact half the country couldn't vote and the US chose him in advance, but Assad is illegitimate. Got it.

3/ Banging on about the 'fascists'/ 'Nazis' was the Kremlin agenda to polarise - that ship sailed.. do try keep up

Are you trying to tell us these people are not in Ukraine? Is it really all tweety birds, peace and democratic sprigs of blue and yellow freedom sprouting everywhere now?

Next you will be telling us that Porky's troops are not really killing civilians in the east.

[Markje]

3/ Banging on about the 'fascists'/ 'Nazis' was the Kremlin agenda to polarise - that ship sailed.. do try keep up

Not only has it sailed, it keeps on sailing as more and more atrocities of pravi-sektor and svoboda surface every week.

[msmoby]

Gotta love your double standards. So Porky was "voted" in despite the fact half the country couldn't vote and the US chose him in advance, but Assad is illegitimate. Got it.

Oh dear, your selective knowledge of UA / Levant is shining brightly....

1/ Did the UN criticise the UA votes - NO.

2/ you are being somewhat disingenuous - if suggesting that occupied Donbas / Crimea - constituted half the electorate - being generous - it would be 9 million people - not all voters - and that isn't even 25 percent of the population. More like 20..


3/ One scenario has a dictator - running 'Presidential elections' that are considered a farce - t'other a President that was removed from office and new elections were run to prove the legitimacy of his replacement
 

3/ Banging on about the 'fascists'/ 'Nazis' was the Kremlin agenda to polarise - that ship sailed.. do try keep up

Are you trying to tell us these people are not in Ukraine? Is it really all tweety birds, peace and democratic sprigs of blue and yellow freedom sprouting everywhere now?

As you know - really well - by now - I am not fan of 'fervent patriots'... the question is daft. Only the Kremlin and it's slavish followers  believe the situation was created by the 'west' / 'Nazi's' / fairies - delete as appropriate.. There always was some tension - but nothing like the Kremlin talked up and created in answer to Yanu scrambling to get outta dodge ..

Next you will be telling us that Porky's troops are not really killing civilians in the east.

There are and have  been numerous breaches of Minsk 2 - by both the govt and rebel forces... but you knew this, too.

[Manny]

Stop reading the Grauniad, Moby.

[Tom Cat]

Ukraine: When the Right Sector Runs the Courtroom

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/12/18/ukraine-when-the-right-sector-runs-the-courtroom/

[msmoby]

Stop reading the Grauniad, Moby.

As opposed to talking to folk who LIVE in many of the places we discuss  ?


As I frequently remind you - the Guardian is the newspaper of choice for Snowden and is hardly HMG's salvish supporter..not that it is my fav read .. The Independent - owned by a Russian 

That you keep repeating fiction and I must remind you - worrying   

[Slumba]

Are you trying to tell us these people are not in Ukraine? Is it really all tweety birds, peace and democratic sprigs of blue and yellow freedom sprouting everywhere now?

Next you will be telling us that Porky's troops are not really killing civilians in the east.

Please give us your counts of the people in each party, that you believe to be nazi/fascists in Ukraine.  Show your sources, please!

As I pointed out earlier, there are 15K party members.  Out of a population of what, 40 million?  And if they were such a strong party, why did they gain seats, then lose them later (37 seats cut down to 6)?

Do you disagree with those numbers, Manny? 

[Tom Cat]

Most everyday you will find articles about violent terrorist acts carried out by the right sector.

Members of the Right Sector have beaten Orthodox believers who protected their church from seizure in west Ukraine

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=12616

[Tom Cat]

The murky story of Oleh Muzhchyl: Russian spy or Ukrainian patriot?

http://www.Kievpost.com/article/content/ukraine-politics/the-murky-story-of-oleh-muzhchyl-russian-spy-or-ukrainian-patriot-404453.html

[Manny]

As I frequently remind you - the Guardian is the newspaper of choice for Snowden and is hardly HMG's salvish supporter.

http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,21492.msg427433.html#msg427433

[Manny]

Are you trying to tell us these people are not in Ukraine? Is it really all tweety birds, peace and democratic sprigs of blue and yellow freedom sprouting everywhere now?

Next you will be telling us that Porky's troops are not really killing civilians in the east.

Please give us your counts of the people in each party, that you believe to be nazi/fascists in Ukraine.  Show your sources, please!

As I pointed out earlier, there are 15K party members.  Out of a population of what, 40 million?  And if they were such a strong party, why did they gain seats, then lose them later (37 seats cut down to 6)?

Do you disagree with those numbers, Manny?

I don't have numbers to hand. You are free to respond to the text you quoted.

[Markje]

I don't have numbers to hand. You are free to respond to the text you quoted.

These guys have been photographed in Nazi uniforms.
These guys have been videotaped making the Nazi-salute.
Their flag is the Waffen-SS flag.

Yet you will always have disbelievers that try to marginalize stuff, when it was Svoboda/Pravi-sektor that was most dominant on Maidan during the riots of Yanukovich.

It was pravi-sektor / svoboda that took control soon after, and as recent newspaper reports show us, they can even order judges (3 of odessa) to resign.

But all that doesnt matter, its just a small percentage of the government.

Riiiiiiiight. 

[Manny]

Look at these friendly people in Mariupol.........

https://www.facebook.com/mariya.frey/videos/10153873493918982/?pnref=story

Probably what the US would call moderate Nazis.

[Tom Cat]

It's a small world after all.

Ukraine Independence Day celebration in Toronto features appeals favouring war and fundraising for fascism

http://rogerannis.com/ukraine-independence-day-celebration-in-toronto-features-appeals-favouring-war-and-fundraising-for-fascism/