The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States

[msmoby]

El Guero, falling victim to mass hypnosis does not make the hypnosis more real. There is no rational reason for Russia to invade Estonia, absent acts from outside Russia which make such action necessary.

Placing weapons designed to attack Russia close to Russian borders is the type of act that could result in Russia needing to neutralise those forces. At that point a war will have started but it would not have been Russia that started it.

Here's an easier way to think about it. One that even a hypnotised person can probably grasp because it does not relate directly to the issue about which you are hypnotised: if you want to use a car to drive on vacation. Given that you have the money to do so, does it make more sense to rent the car or to steal it? If you rent the car then everybody is happy. You go on vacation with no consequences. If you steal the car then everyone is against you. When caught with the car your vacation will end, you might - go to prison, your friends and family might turn against you.

The cost of taking the car car is higher than paying for it. Stealing makes no sense.

That's the situation with the mass hypnosis about Russia. It is cheaper and easier for Russia to pay for what it needs than to take it.

Remembering that this thread was a branch of another thread and renamed by management ..

FACT:

1/ The Soviet Union agreed to the independence of the Baltic States

2/ The Prosecutor General felt that looking into the 'legality' of their ceding' from the Soviet Union

3/ Throughout history there have been periods when Moscow controlled the Baltic States

4/ Agreements to 'protect' states / respect the sovereignty of said former Soviet states have been broken

5/ The USA had pulled out tanks from Europe -  none in 2013

6/ The anti-missile missiles - contrary to hype are NOT the sort of missile than can be converted to be first strike

Now while I wish Estonia and Latvia - in particular - had automatically given eth Russians - mostly planted to dilute nationalist tendencies - full national passports and EU citizenship ( like Lithuania ) only someone who is selectively blind could suggest NATO wishes to 'attack' Russia.  The recent history has been the Kremlin seeking to destabilise regimes under the pretext of protecting RU citizens - having made citizens of other nations ' Russian' .

My biz partner in Cyprus was a former officer in the Red Army and will never be convinced otherwise .... )) 

Now that he has FINALLY - got CY nationality - he will be better able to judge
 

[Tom Cat]

Over the past month the media predicted Russia was going to use the war games to overtake Belarus, then the Baltic states.
This was total rubbish so I never posted any links.
Now that the military training is completed, there has been no retraction, or any articles correcting to lies that were passed off as news reports. If Russia had followed thru with every invasion they have been accused of planning, Russia would be even larger than the former Soviet union.

Russia begins troop withdrawal from Belarus after end of Zapad 2017 drills – MoD

https://www.rt.com/news/404001-russia-withdrawal-zapad-drills/

[Tom Cat]

Over the past month the media predicted Russia was going to use the war games to overtake Belarus, then the Baltic states.
This was total rubbish so I never posted any links.
Now that the military training is completed, there has been no retraction, or any articles correcting to lies that were passed off as news reports. If Russia had followed thru with every invasion they have been accused of planning, Russia would be even larger than the former Soviet union.

Russia begins troop withdrawal from Belarus after end of Zapad 2017 drills – MoD

https://www.rt.com/news/404001-russia-withdrawal-zapad-drills/

A few weeks back the media was giving numbers of up to 100,000 Russian soldiers participating, now it was a few thousand.
Belarus officials said the last Russian troops have left. Ukraine says thousands remain.
So most likely the Russian invasion of the Baltic states will once again be floated across the western media.

Russia left troops in Belarus after wargames: Ukraine

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-army/russia-left-troops-in-belarus-after-wargames-ukraine-idUSKCN1C4234

[Texan77]

It is in all of what physical space you want to talk about. The larger number reported was in all across Russia from China to Europe.

[Tom Cat]

The Russian military must be much larger than previously thought.
Troops in Syria, Ukraine Belarus. There's supposedly large military presence near the north Korean border. Russia is said to have a buildup in the Artic. We have countless submarine sightings some equipped with the ability to cut communication cables.
It's amazing how Russia is capable of threatening such a vast area, and spend so little compared to the United states.


VLAD’S INVASION PLAN?

Fears Russia is plotting to invade Baltic states after Putin leaves thousands of troops behind in Belarus after war games, despite promising Nato he wouldn’t

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4581107/fears-russia-plotting-invasion-baltic-nato/

[Texan77]

The Russian military must be much larger than previously thought.
Troops in Syria, Ukraine Belarus. There's supposedly large military presence near the north Korean border. Russia is said to have a buildup in the Artic. We have countless submarine sightings some equipped with the ability to cut communication cables.
It's amazing how Russia is capable of threatening such a vast area, and spend so little compared to the United states.


VLAD’S INVASION PLAN?

Fears Russia is plotting to invade Baltic states after Putin leaves thousands of troops behind in Belarus after war games, despite promising Nato he wouldn’t

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4581107/fears-russia-plotting-invasion-baltic-nato/

In 2010 the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) estimated that the Russian Armed Forces numbered about 1,027,000 active troops and in the region of 2,035,000 reserves (largely ex-conscripts).

Lets see her now. That would be about 6000 in Syria, a few hundred in Ukraine,  maybe a few thousand in Belarus and he has a total of 3 million plus troops. I do not know anything about Russian troop movement as Putin has not seen it fit to inform me. But it would be very possible that he did use 100,000 troops all across Russia and Belarus from the standpoint he does have enough troops to do this.

[Tom Cat]

Texan, prior to the military training in Belarus, estimations of up to 100,000 Russian troops could take part.
This dose not include Russian troops reportedly in drills in many other locations.

Here's what we know about the reported 100,000 Russian troops going to NATO's borders

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-we-know-about-the-100000-russians-going-to-natos-borders-2017-8

[Texan77]

Texan, prior to the military training in Belarus, estimations of up to 100,000 Russian troops could take part.
This dose not include Russian troops reportedly in drills in many other locations.

Here's what we know about the reported 100,000 Russian troops going to NATO's borders

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-we-know-about-the-100000-russians-going-to-natos-borders-2017-8

The article said 60 to 100,000 in western Russia and Belarus not just in Belarus. Notice you are always using the largest possible number that the article said was possible.  What I read but I do not have the article was they use troops all across Russia to practice fast deployment of troops. Remember there was a time Russia had 70,000 troops on the border with the Ukraine and most of the time Russia keeps ten of thousand troops near the NATO boarder as defense. So in games that was likely an increase. Putin has the number of troops to do it if he wants to. Russia has a very large land mass and they want to be able to redeploy troops any where in the country where they are needed. My reading they used this exercise for that practice using far more troops than what they let NATO believe they would be using because Russia only counted the troops in Belarus when it was a much larger over all exercise. Then you find some crazy of the wall article and go crazy over it as if all western media was reporting this. What is really happening is most of the people in the USA has totally missed the story as this is not been very reported and not of much interest to most USAians who for now seem to be focus on North Korea. 

[Tom Cat]

Texan, prior to the military training in Belarus, estimations of up to 100,000 Russian troops could take part.
This dose not include Russian troops reportedly in drills in many other locations.

Here's what we know about the reported 100,000 Russian troops going to NATO's borders

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-we-know-about-the-100000-russians-going-to-natos-borders-2017-8

The article said 60 to 100,000 in western Russia and Belarus not just in Belarus. Notice you are always using the largest possible number that the article said was possible.  What I read but I do not have the article was they use troops all across Russia to practice fast deployment of troops. Remember there was a time Russia had 70,000 troops on the border with the Ukraine and most of the time Russia keeps ten of thousand troops near the NATO boarder as defense. So in games that was likely an increase. Putin has the number of troops to do it if he wants to. Russia has a very large land mass and they want to be able to redeploy troops any where in the country where they are needed. My reading they used this exercise for that practice using far more troops than what they let NATO believe they would be using because Russia only counted the troops in Belarus when it was a much larger over all exercise. Then you find some crazy of the wall article and go crazy over it as if all western media was reporting this. What is really happening is most of the people in the USA has totally missed the story as this is not been very reported and not of much interest to most USAians who for now seem to be focus on North Korea. 

Texan, the article posted is typical western propaganda, Russia had maybe around 5000+ troops in Belarus.
Point is western media seldom gives an accurate account of Russia.
There's one common theme that can be found in many of these articles, that being the Ukrainian sources so often quoted.

Some think the Russian media is filled with propaganda and inaccurate news, but it is much closer to the truth than anything from the western media.

[Texan77]

Texan, prior to the military training in Belarus, estimations of up to 100,000 Russian troops could take part.
This dose not include Russian troops reportedly in drills in many other locations.

Here's what we know about the reported 100,000 Russian troops going to NATO's borders

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-we-know-about-the-100000-russians-going-to-natos-borders-2017-8

The article said 60 to 100,000 in western Russia and Belarus not just in Belarus. Notice you are always using the largest possible number that the article said was possible.  What I read but I do not have the article was they use troops all across Russia to practice fast deployment of troops. Remember there was a time Russia had 70,000 troops on the border with the Ukraine and most of the time Russia keeps ten of thousand troops near the NATO boarder as defense. So in games that was likely an increase. Putin has the number of troops to do it if he wants to. Russia has a very large land mass and they want to be able to redeploy troops any where in the country where they are needed. My reading they used this exercise for that practice using far more troops than what they let NATO believe they would be using because Russia only counted the troops in Belarus when it was a much larger over all exercise. Then you find some crazy of the wall article and go crazy over it as if all western media was reporting this. What is really happening is most of the people in the USA has totally missed the story as this is not been very reported and not of much interest to most USAians who for now seem to be focus on North Korea. 

Texan, the article posted is typical western propaganda, Russia had maybe around 5000+ troops in Belarus.
Point is western media seldom gives an accurate account of Russia.
There's one common theme that can be found in many of these articles, that being the Ukrainian sources so often quoted.Some think the Russian media is filled with propaganda and inaccurate news, but it is much closer to the truth than anything from the western media.

That was not the article I posted it was the one you posted. No Putin News network is a propaganda network that is after the USA to discredit it. That is its main goal. Even when the fact are right the omissions are so large and obvious. During the Ukraine war I would get the facts from girl on scene then watch it in the news. Thing like the Ukraine wants to kill 2,000,000 Ethnic Russians not even close. RT news reports Ukraine army torchers four year old boy story completely made up. They hired actors and it was fake news.

Russia held a very large excises that went all across Russia and NATO was concern about it. Not really a big deal except with you.

Tom did you count these troops?  How do you know how many there except Putin's news network? Did you even know anybody that was there? What makes you such an expert on whose news is right or wrong?


Here in the USA we have Alex Jones who poses as being pro USA right wing who is really Putin news network underground. He always discredit the USA government and praises Putin. His news and very slanted against the USA.

[andrewfi]

It is worth noting that no matter the numbers you are being told you are being lied to.

The exercises that were recently held are held on a four year cycle, revolving around the 4 military districts of Russia. The numbers quoted include civilians, police, military, medical participants because they are designed to drill all these important stakeholders for various disaster contingencies - including invasion from external forces.

Zapad in Russian means 'west' and denotes that this year the exercises were held in the western military district.

But yes, you were lied to because you were told that these were preparations for some kind of invasion when the people originating the lies know, absolutely, that this is not the case. You were lied to because the originators of the lies know, absolutely, that the numbers of participants include a majority of civilian and law enforcement personal.

[AvHdB]

Russia as well as NATO, the United States and other military powers hold military training exercises on a regular basis. So if news papers want to sell paper they can easily inflate the number by consulting with the janitor or a woman with a glass ball.

How many troops remained behind in Belarus after Zapad, a guess less than 1,000 and more likely around 100. The Russians do have material there and most of those 'troops' are repair and maintenance personnel. NATO has a number of bases in countries such as Romania and the Baltic States sometimes there are active units and sometimes exactly the same, maintenance boys and girls.

How many Russian troops are on the borders of European states, Finland, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland, Ukraine and Georgia. I would guess some where near 50,000 seems high but is possible. When I was getting Jane's about 10-12 years ago I saw some report that the number was 30,0000 in total. It certainly has not gone down. One thing that surprised me was how few relative to the length of the border was the actual physical number of Russian's along the Ukraine border.

[rosco]

More guff about to be aired tonight on BBC. BBC2 at 9pm - Army: Behind the front lines.

Programme description - The new Cold War. The army is sent to Estonia, on the frontline of a new Cold War. Can they deter Russian expansion and avoid a costly war?

Needless to say I sent an email to the chief pleb at the British brainwashing corporation to challenge the programme description. It’s clearly leading the reader down a path and hopes Moby/those who can’t be arsed to check/simpletons lap up more propaganda for the greater good.

Just be honest FFS and more people might decide to start paying the tax.....I mean licence fee.

[msmoby]

Well, *I* watched the BBC programme and it dealt with Estonia's 'fears' following escalations and subsequent well-equipped troops from somewhere ending up in Georgia / Ukraine.

The BBC incorrectly* referred to Russia's invasion of Ukraine

Showed media articles in Russian media - describing the 'acts' of German troops in Estonia - that hadn't arrived, yet

It portrayed the balance that any troops stationed there had to ensure they weren't acting provocatively and showed the protests of eth.Russians who didn't want NATO there.

For sure, it was more from the Estonian perspective of having been occupied by Moscow for 50 plus years.


* A kind correction by a passing moderator who approved this post.

[rosco]

Well, *I* watched the BBC programme and it dealt with Estonia's 'fears' following escalations and subsequent well-equipped troops from somewhere ending up in Georgia / Ukraine.

The BBC incorrectly* referred to Russia's invasion of Ukraine

Showed media articles in Russian media - describing the 'acts' of German troops in Estonia - that hadn't arrived, yet

It portrayed the balance that any troops stationed there had to ensure they weren't acting provocatively and showed the protests of eth.Russians who didn't want NATO there.

For sure, it was more from the Estonian perspective of having been occupied by Moscow for 50 plus years.


* A kind correction by a passing moderator who approved this post.

So.....I watched it too.

The way our armed forces discussed the situation in Estonia is what I'd expect from an organised armed force, having been briefed and deployed by the stooges. Nothing offensive there. They knew it was about striking the balance between a show of force without provocation.

The presentation and narrative however, was very much about leading the sheep. NATO is the good guy, providing shelter to poor defenceless countries who have been raped and pillaged before by the naughty USSR. Russia and Putin are dangerous expansionists and they could attack us at any time!!

Yawn......

Ukraine and Georgia got pulled into it yet again, to provide justification and we all know how contentious these examples are. Cutting and pasting clips of Putin and military parades made Russia look like North Korea.....even though the parades are about celebrating beating the nazis. More talk of how much Russia spends on their military (not described as defence) yet no context compared with NATO or US budgets....shock!

I honestly do get it. Countries do what they do to protect their own interests and on occasion, to slow up their competitors. Russia isn't a paragon innocence....I understand that. The BBC however are "impartial" so they should act impartial. I couldn't help thinking that Putin has been doing this to split the forces between the Baltics & Syria. Keeping them busy in the snow chasing shadows helps Russia & Assad.

Discussing Russian propaganda as you have above, was the easy bit but then showing how it works the other way wasn't on the agenda. Thankfully some sensible bloke from the army admitted as much but it wasn't given much air time.

Either way.....Russia came out of this as the bad guy, looking to attack us all once again. Shame on you BBC.

[Tom Cat]

No evidence of Russian troops left behind in Belarus after Zapad 2017 drills – NATO chief

https://www.rt.com/news/407893-zapad-drills-nato-no-troops/