President Trump

[Markje]

Mark, admit that you have no clue as to what you are talking about.
You know nothing about hunting, nothing about wildlife management
and nothing about Africa. I find it silly that somebody who isn't a
vegetarian whines about any of this. Is one animal that we eat more
noble than another?

If you think I am ignorant, it is best to stop discussing this.

What do you think they do with the elephant if they kill one? It gets
eaten by poor people in Africa, that's what happens to it. How does
that deplete Africa? How is that breaking the cycle of life? Do you
think that the people of Africa shouldn't be allowed to eat this and
that only jackals, buzzards and worms should? Who gave you that
level of superiority?

If they kill one, their head and trunk are chopped off for trophies, the ivory is sold off to the highest bidder and the rest is left to rot in the sand. Some of the meat could be taken by poachers to feed themselves. I rather doubt that the poor people will eat it, as the meat is seen as high-priced and valuable.

I find it funny that you use your emotions rather than reason and
fact to argue.

Nope, I dont use emotions, but cold hard facts:
- Elephants are on the verge of extinction.
- Elephants are illegal to hunt (see below).
- Elephants should be protected from poachers hunting them.

Wild elephants are on the endangered species list ,
so it is forbidden to hunt them. (Yes, even the old ones)

Says you, Elephant hunting is legal in Zambia and Zimbabwe. 
Do those countries have to check with you first before they decide
to allow limited elephant hunting?

https://uniquehunting.com/elephant-hunting/is-elephant-hunting-legal/
[/quote]
There you go again quoting any source except the one I already posted upthread.
And a single country doesn't make it right either, Japan still allows hunting of whales. Doesn't mean they are right.

No matter how much you want to deny it, elephants are on the endangerd species list.
The whole list can be browsed with the link I gave upthread.

But it is pointless to debate with you, as you seem unwilling to protect species from extinction.

Mark.

[Tom Cat]

Once again fake news about Trump was posted by the liberal media. Now they again put a spin on it to cover up their lies.
Don't jump to conclusions about Trump by what the liberal media says

Trump's elephant trophy reversal comes as a surprise to administration employees, interest groups

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/18/politics/elephant-trophy-reversal-reactions/index.html

[Contrarian]

The decision to allow import of trophies from hunting in Africa is on hold. Good!

[rosco]

I was also moved by the PC arguments. I believe clearly big game hunting should happen for conservation reasons.

I’m not sold on allowing shipping of the “trophies” back to the USA. Due to PC arguments it does make us look bad.

The jury is still out on this imo.

The trophies get more fees, which pays the wardens, which stops the
poachers which makes the herds thrive. It's literally the circle of life as
seen on the lion king.

I absolutely agree with your take on hunting Bill and country sports are a massive contributor to both the UK economy & conservation.

The problem with big game hunting in Africa is that you can shoot anything or anyone if you pay enough money. This allows egotistical psychopaths to kill endangered species in their prime so they can tick it off the bucket list.

There’s an etiquette that traditionally follows hunting, but the big game African lot tend to be pretty vulgar - as per the photo a page or so back.

[2tallbill]

If you think I am ignorant, it is best to stop discussing this.

If they kill one, their head and trunk are chopped off for trophies, the ivory is sold off to the highest bidder and the rest is left to rot in the sand. Some of the meat could be taken by poachers to feed themselves. I rather doubt that the poor people will eat it, as the meat is seen as high-priced and valuable.

I showed links that
1. They don't waste the meat. Every part gets eaten and they even use the
hide. The hunting guide will LOSE his license if they waste the meat, but if you
don't want to read the links and decide that in you know better then I am
not going to stop you. Hunters don't sell the tusks, unless forced to by law
that's what they want to keep for their trophy.

2. They allow very limited hunting in at least two countries. Where they harvest
the old. They never harvest females, the old elephants can't reproduce and
they will die of starvation and being ripped apart by predators. I'm sorry that
things aren't as you believed. I posted a link to verify this.

3. You rather doubt that poor people in Africa will eat elephant meat?

You are right, arguing with you about this is futile. You ignore the links,
the facts and come up with ideas yourself rather than doing a little research.

Have a nice day.


Bill

[Markje]

If you think I am ignorant, it is best to stop discussing this.

If they kill one, their head and trunk are chopped off for trophies, the ivory is sold off to the highest bidder and the rest is left to rot in the sand. Some of the meat could be taken by poachers to feed themselves. I rather doubt that the poor people will eat it, as the meat is seen as high-priced and valuable.

I showed links that
1. They don't waste the meat. Every part gets eaten and they even use the
hide. The hunting guide will LOSE his license if they waste the meat, but if you
don't want to read the links and decide that in you know better then I am
not going to stop you. Hunters don't sell the tusks, unless forced to by law
that's what they want to keep for their trophy.

2. They allow very limited hunting in at least two countries. Where they harvest
the old. They never harvest females, the old elephants can't reproduce and
they will die of starvation and being ripped apart by predators. I'm sorry that
things aren't as you believed. I posted a link to verify this.

3. You rather doubt that poor people in Africa will eat elephant meat?

You are right, arguing with you about this is futile. You ignore the links,
the facts and come up with ideas yourself rather than doing a little research.

Have a nice day.


Bill

Have a nice day Bill

It seems we will never seem to agree on this point.

I however am not ignorant nor unwilling to read, you however seem unwilling to do the latter. Even on something as simple as an endangered species list.

Mark.

[2tallbill]

The problem with big game hunting in Africa is that you can shoot anything or anyone if you pay enough money. This allows egotistical psychopaths to kill endangered species in their prime so they can tick it off the bucket list.

There’s an etiquette that traditionally follows hunting, but the big game African lot tend to be pretty vulgar - as per the photo a page or so back.

The tusks on an elephant never stop growing until they die. They pay
$50-$70K to hunt for an elephant and often times they wait for years
before getting to the top of the list before they will be issued a permit.
They all want to kill and old one with huge tusks. It's not a perfect
solution, but it's the best that they've come up with so far.

[2tallbill]

Even on something as simple as an endangered species list.

Mark.

I will stipulate that elephants are on the endangered species list.
Being on a list doesn't mean that a country can't manage it's
wildlife and have limited selected hunts to cull the herd. 

Being on the list and culling the herd are not mutually exclusive.

[Contrarian]

Even on something as simple as an endangered species list.

Mark.

I will stipulate that elephants are on the endangered species list.
Being on a list doesn't mean that a country can't manage it's
wildlife and have limited selected hunts to cull the herd. 

Being on the list and culling the herd are not mutually exclusive.

Well said Bill! 

[Markje]

Being on the list and culling the herd are not mutually exclusive.

You can google the website where I found this:

A number of problems with Zimbabwe’s elephant management remain unresolved to date: the lack of an elephant management plan; lack of sufficient data on population numbers and trends; anemic enforcement of wildlife laws; lack of information about how money derived from trophy hunting by U.S. hunters is distributed within Zimbabwe; and lack of a national mechanism, such as government support, to sustain elephant conservation efforts in the country.

I found similar items on all countries you listed.

Zambia:
The law has forbidden hunting of elephants since 1982 , which revised the prohibited hunting quota act of 1968.

[Markje]

 

And one more to counter the bullshit about culling the herd from old males:

From a population standpoint, “older male elephants are very important to the health and genetic vitality of a population,” said Cynthia Moss, who has led the Amboseli Elephant Research Project in Kenya since 1972. While hunters in the past have used the belief that older males are reproductively senile as an argument for killing them for their ivory, research has revealed that they are in fact an elephant population’s primary breeders. “By living to an older age, [older males show that] they have the traits for longevity and good health to pass on to their offspring,” Moss said. “Killing these males compromises the next generation of the population.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/11/elephant-trophy-hunting-psychology-emotions/546293/

[2tallbill]

A number of problems with Zimbabwe’s elephant management remain unresolved to date: the lack of an elephant management plan; lack of sufficient data on population numbers and trends; anemic enforcement of wildlife laws; lack of information about how money derived from trophy hunting by U.S. hunters is distributed within Zimbabwe; and lack of a national mechanism, such as government support, to sustain elephant conservation efforts in the country.
I found similar items on all countries you listed.

Zimbabwe is a poorly run country rife with graft, corruption and scandal.
They've just had a military coup. They manage their wildlife the best they
can with the meager money that the corrupt government puts into it.

They do get a bit of help from outside experts and organizations. The tour
operators and the outside groups help the game wardens to extent that they
can. It's far from perfect, and they have a long way to go.

Should You Be Going on Safari in Zimbabwe?
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/elizabethgordon2/should-you-be-going-on-sa_b_6955440.html



The world wildlife organization
https://www.worldwildlife.org/magazine/issues/spring-2016/articles/a-promising-future-for-africa-s-wildlife

The safari club foundation
http://safariclubfoundation.org/sci-foundation-september-2015-e-newsletter/hunting-is-conservation-the-campfire-program-in-zimbabwe

[2tallbill]

And one more to counter the bullshit about culling the herd from old males:

Once they lose their last teeth, the old males are going to die.
The old males must fight the younger males to have a chance
to propagate. This happens very rarely regardless of what your
article says. 

The article is probably using a different age than I am for older
elephants.

Elephant’s Teeth Decide When the Elephant Dies
http://awesci.com/elephant-teeth-decide-when-they-die/

[Markje]

And one more to counter the bullshit about culling the herd from old males:

Once they lose their last teeth, the old males are going to die.
The old males must fight the younger males to have a chance
to propagate. This happens very rarely regardless of what your
article says. 

The article is probably using a different age than I am for older
elephants.

Elephant’s Teeth Decide When the Elephant Dies
http://awesci.com/elephant-teeth-decide-when-they-die/

Ah right, so you're suggesting that hunters do not want the thrill of the hunt but simply want to shoot some animal that can barely stand on its feet anymore from old age.

[rosco]

If you think I am ignorant, it is best to stop discussing this.

If they kill one, their head and trunk are chopped off for trophies, the ivory is sold off to the highest bidder and the rest is left to rot in the sand. Some of the meat could be taken by poachers to feed themselves. I rather doubt that the poor people will eat it, as the meat is seen as high-priced and valuable.

I showed links that
1. They don't waste the meat. Every part gets eaten and they even use the
hide. The hunting guide will LOSE his license if they waste the meat, but if you
don't want to read the links and decide that in you know better then I am
not going to stop you. Hunters don't sell the tusks, unless forced to by law
that's what they want to keep for their trophy.

2. They allow very limited hunting in at least two countries. Where they harvest
the old. They never harvest females, the old elephants can't reproduce and
they will die of starvation and being ripped apart by predators. I'm sorry that
things aren't as you believed. I posted a link to verify this.

3. You rather doubt that poor people in Africa will eat elephant meat?

You are right, arguing with you about this is futile. You ignore the links,
the facts and come up with ideas yourself rather than doing a little research.

Have a nice day.


Bill

Have you ever been to Africa Bill? I’m kinda with you on this one but knowing how Africa works, your points above sadly won’t generally be enforced.

[Contrarian]

An article against trophies.

“Zimbabwe? Since when do we listen to Zimbabwe? A country that doesn’t even have its own currency any longer because of mismanagement and rampant corruption. A country whose government is so corrupt and inept, that there is literally a coup taking place there as we speak. Sound management and Zimbabwe shouldn’t even be in the same sentence. We’ve decided to listen to a government whose corrupt officials’ likely #1 goal is to find out how to get money from affluent people in the U.S”.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/11/20/elephant-trophies-seriously-this-is-what-washington-is-spending-its-time-on.amp.html

[2tallbill]

Ah right, so you're suggesting that hunters do not want the thrill of the hunt but simply want to shoot some animal that can barely stand on its feet anymore from old age.

It takes years for the old elephants to die. They eat tons of food (literally)
but can't process it. You don't want to argue the merits of this. I've made
several points

1. They don't waste the meat you were wrong.

2. The old males 60-70 years old don't mate, you were wrong

3. It's not illegal to hunt elephants just because they are on the
endangered species list. You were wrong.

4. You didn't think that poor Africans will eat elephant meat,
I don't know how you could be more wrong.

5. There are only inedible Salmon on the endangered species list?!??!
Hahahahha. You are telling me that ncorhynchus tshawytscha the
California Chinook salmon is inedible?!?!  I have caught and eaten it.
When the stocks go down they stop salmon fishing in the areas
where they come from. How about the Sockeye salmon of the Snake
river? Cutthroat trout of British Columbia?!!??!  All of those are very
tasty and edible.
Again you are wrong.

6. You show your ignorance on elephant hunting
"Now its not hunting its simply pointing a gun and killing it"
Do you know how many people were killed hunting elephants?
You again are wrong. Rifle hunting is the most humane way to
kill elephants in the wild.

7. Killing old elephants depletes Africa. Wrong

8. Trophy hunters sell the tusks to the highest bidder.
Wrong (unless forced to do so)

[2tallbill]

Have you ever been to Africa Bill? I’m kinda with you on this one but knowing how Africa works, your points above sadly won’t generally be enforced.

No, I haven't. I've only read about it. They are very corrupt, but managing
the wildlife, even ineptly is still the way to go. Otherwise, the poachers would
simply exterminate anything worth a buck and then these animals really
would become extinct in the wild.

[Tom Cat]

Ungrateful

Trump and father of UCLA player spar over arrest in China

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-father-ucla-player-spar-arrest-china/story?id=51274885

[Markje]

Ah right, so you're suggesting that hunters do not want the thrill of the hunt but simply want to shoot some animal that can barely stand on its feet anymore from old age.

It takes years for the old elephants to die. They eat tons of food (literally)
but can't process it. You don't want to argue the merits of this. I've made
several points

1. They don't waste the meat you were wrong.

2. The old males 60-70 years old don't mate, you were wrong

3. It's not illegal to hunt elephants just because they are on the
endangered species list. You were wrong.

4. You didn't think that poor Africans will eat elephant meat,
I don't know how you could be more wrong.

5. There are only inedible Salmon on the endangered species list?!??!
Hahahahha. You are telling me that ncorhynchus tshawytscha the
California Chinook salmon is inedible?!?!  I have caught and eaten it.
When the stocks go down they stop salmon fishing in the areas
where they come from. How about the Sockeye salmon of the Snake
river? Cutthroat trout of British Columbia?!!??!  All of those are very
tasty and edible.
Again you are wrong.

6. You show your ignorance on elephant hunting
"Now its not hunting its simply pointing a gun and killing it"
Do you know how many people were killed hunting elephants?
You again are wrong. Rifle hunting is the most humane way to
kill elephants in the wild.

7. Killing old elephants depletes Africa. Wrong

8. Trophy hunters sell the tusks to the highest bidder.
Wrong (unless forced to do so)

You're not thinking and not reading, so let me help you this one time with the google:

1. They don't waste the meat you were wrong.
Then why do the locals not eat it. (Because its too expensive)
Then why do the predators not eat it. (Because it is spoiled by the hunt)
Then why do the Rich not eat it (because they are left in unhospitable places).

All of this is readily available on google, no need to search for it even. Just hit 'im feeling lucky'


2. The old males 60-70 years old don't mate, you were wrong

Strange, I thought the link I put up above is very much proving I am not wrong, even that they are the primary breeders of the race.

For the thinkers: How old do elephants get?
How old do humans get?
How much older percentage-wise do elephants get?
If you triangulate that, do human males father children at the age of 50, 60 or even 70?

3. It's not illegal to hunt elephants just because they are on the
endangered species list. You were wrong.

It is illegal to hunt and kill animals on the endangered species list. that countries decide otherwise on their own is bad of that country, but does not make it any less illegal.

Japan for instance , has not declared hunting whales illegal whilst the entire world (even Norway now) decides otherwise. Whales have 1 advantage over elephants, they migrate all around the world and not only close to japan.


4. You didn't think that poor Africans will eat elephant meat, I don't know how you could be more wrong.
I think your ignorance shows here. Please see point 1.


5. There are only inedible Salmon on the endangered species list?!??!

Hahahahha. You are telling me that ncorhynchus tshawytscha the
California Chinook salmon is inedible?!?!  I have caught and eaten it.
When the stocks go down they stop salmon fishing in the areas
where they come from. How about the Sockeye salmon of the Snake
river? Cutthroat trout of British Columbia?!!??!  All of those are very
tasty and edible.
Again you are wrong.

https://www.worldwildlife.org/species/directory?sort=extinction_status&direction=desc
You're still not reading the endangered species list, so I quoted here for you... Go on, tell me im wrong yet again.

ncorhynchus tshawytscha the California Chinook salmon is inedible?! (No, they are not on the list).
Sockeye salmon of the Snake river? Cutthroat trout of British Columbia?!!??! (No, they are also not on the list).

Please tell me again how wrong i am, when all you need to do is read that list. You can even search it as its in plain-text format.

6. Point a gun and kill it. Thats all there is to it.. anyone getting killed, is justice served as far as I am concerned, however this is not the norm. The kill-be-killed ratio for elephant hunters is so far skewed those few deaths do not count. Hell, one of em got under a jeep during a safari and by your definition it would be a legal kill for the elephant.

7. Killing old elephants depletes Africa. Wrong
Mating habits of elephants. Tell me again how I am wrong. I explained this upthread with links.

8. Trophy hunters sell the tusks to the highest bidder.
Wrong (unless forced to do so)
Ok, you get that one for free from me, perhaps they don't.

Mark.
PS: I wont respond again on this, as you still won't read.

[Ste]

Killing for fun is wrong, end of story. Sport as well, though this isn't sport, the elephant doesn't have a massive gun..

Bullfighting? Controls the bull population?

[rosco]

Have you ever been to Africa Bill? I’m kinda with you on this one but knowing how Africa works, your points above sadly won’t generally be enforced.

No, I haven't. I've only read about it. They are very corrupt, but managing
the wildlife, even ineptly is still the way to go. Otherwise, the poachers would
simply exterminate anything worth a buck and then these animals really
would become extinct in the wild.

It’s more likely the wildlife management folk in Africa would exterminate everything for a dollar today. It’s the mentality out there.

Not sure if it’s desperation, lack of education or mistrust but you could offer a bloke a weeks work at a daily rate and he’d rip you off on day one for an extra few dollars, costing him the other 6 days pay.

I’ve personally had this in Africa with taxi drivers & guides, hence my distrust in their wildlife management protocol. You can pay to kill someone there if you want, most don’t give a shit.

[rosco]

Killing for fun is wrong, end of story. Sport as well, though this isn't sport, the elephant doesn't have a massive gun..

Bullfighting? Controls the bull population?

As an animal lover I agree.

The thrust of the discussion is conservation though. In Scotland, we have a massive overpopulation of deer and the forest commission sells stalking days to those who want to hunt.

The money goes back into the forestry commission & the wild life trust, the deer population is kept under control and they don’t destroy areas of countryside which would then have a negative knock on effect for the rest of the countryside & its wildlife. The same goes for our rivers.

I fully support this and without re-introducing natural predators for the deer (which is often debated) it must be done. Stalking is carried out ethically, much needed funding goes back into conservation and the industry pumps many millions into the Scottish retail & hospitality industries. Driven shoots however are a bit more contentious.

So I agree with Bill but I disagree that the same ethics and moral code is played out in Africa.

[Contrarian]

Killing for fun is wrong, end of story. Sport as well, though this isn't sport, the elephant doesn't have a massive gun..

Bullfighting? Controls the bull population?

As an animal lover I agree.

The thrust of the discussion is conservation though. In Scotland, we have a massive overpopulation of deer and the forest commission sells stalking days to those who want to hunt.

The money goes back into the forestry commission & the wild life trust, the deer population is kept under control and they don’t destroy areas of countryside which would then have a negative knock on effect for the rest of the countryside & its wildlife. The same goes for our rivers.

I fully support this and without re-introducing natural predators for the deer (which is often debated) it must be done. Stalking is carried out ethically, much needed funding goes back into conservation and the industry pumps many millions into the Scottish retail & hospitality industries. Driven shoots however are a bit more contentious.

So I agree with Bill but I disagree that the same ethics and moral code is played out in Africa.

Well said. Did you or anyone else read the Fox News story on this I posted above?? Fox is conservative and so normally pro hunting. The author has spent a lot of time in Africa so very qualified. He seems to agree with you about the corruption there.

I remain pro hunting (within reason) but anti trophy.

[rosco]

Killing for fun is wrong, end of story. Sport as well, though this isn't sport, the elephant doesn't have a massive gun..

Bullfighting? Controls the bull population?

As an animal lover I agree.

The thrust of the discussion is conservation though. In Scotland, we have a massive overpopulation of deer and the forest commission sells stalking days to those who want to hunt.

The money goes back into the forestry commission & the wild life trust, the deer population is kept under control and they don’t destroy areas of countryside which would then have a negative knock on effect for the rest of the countryside & its wildlife. The same goes for our rivers.

I fully support this and without re-introducing natural predators for the deer (which is often debated) it must be done. Stalking is carried out ethically, much needed funding goes back into conservation and the industry pumps many millions into the Scottish retail & hospitality industries. Driven shoots however are a bit more contentious.

So I agree with Bill but I disagree that the same ethics and moral code is played out in Africa.

Well said. Did you or anyone else read the Fox News story on this I posted above?? Fox is conservative and so normally pro hunting. The author has spent a lot of time in Africa so very qualified. He seems to agree with you about the corruption there.

I remain pro hunting (within reason) but anti trophy.

I didn’t but it might be worth a look. It’s not exactly surprising when money talks in the developing world and I do understand where Bill is coming from.

Sadly I just don’t believe these countries do what they say they do.