UKR Father's permission to leave the country for children - how to tackle this

[niko]

Hi everyone.

I have been to Ukraine about 8 times in the last year and a half and she came to visit me once, and we have both decided to start a new life together here in Dubai.

My lady has two kids from her ex-boyfriend. They never married.
Obviously the children will come to live with us, as the 'father' has never made the effort to see his kids since the birth of the second one; he is married now with a girl of his own, and he pays minimal child support to the two kids that he had with my girlfriend (UAH 200 per month per kid I think:  $9.59  )
My girlfriend told me that she needs permission from her ex for the kids to leave the country, and that he may decide to be an  and refuse.
During my last trip we went to Children Welfare Bureau, and they confirmed that even though he has nothing to do with the children, he can still hold this sword over our heads.
We went also to speak to a solicitor to see how he would tackle the problem and he suggested saying nothing to the ex, send him some papers and hope that he signs them  That's going to work !

With the new law about children's passports, it looks like he would have to sign two papers. One giving permission for the kids to leave the country and one for them to have passports.

I obviously have no problem with him seeing his kids if thats what he wants, but I would like to resolve the situation in order for us not to be dependent of any sort of blackmail on his part.

Lets say that my lady and him are not in the best of terms; she absolutely hates his guts for cheating on her, but she has agreed to overcome this and speak to him about signing the relevant papers.

Maybe someone here can share their story with us and give us some tips on how to resolve this situation for the best interest of the children. We could of course go to court over this, but it would be lengthy and that would create even more resentment, which, if I can, I would prefer to avoid.

But then, maybe Ukrainian men are like Putin, in the sense that for each conflict there needs to be a loser and a winner, so perhaps I am wasting my time trying to figure out a win-win outcome ?

Any comments are welcome.

Thanks.
 

[Ste]

My guess is you'll have to pay him off.


.

[Manny]

My guess is you'll have to pay him off.

$1000 seemed to be the going rate for one or two chaps I heard of.

There is the possibility that he wont let his kids live in Dubai. I wouldn't.

[Chris]

Lets say that my lady and him are not in the best of terms; she absolutely hates his guts for cheating on her, but she has agreed to overcome this and speak to him about signing the relevant papers.

I have written on here before about how to do this and what you need to do regards forms that need signing, and what needs to be included when kids are involved, if you do a search you might be able to find it, I haven't time right now to go over it again.

One thing I will say, this isn't simply one set of forms he will need to sign and that's the last you need to deal with him, he will be required to sign forms for various reasons at regular intervals until the kids are 18 years old. eg letter of authorities for the kids to leave Ukraine, and importantly, to visit/live abroad,  (don't specify one country that they are allowed to visit otherwise you will be after him again if you ever want to go anywhere else) passports, they need to renew them every three years, again a letter is required each time, unless you can get him to sign one and get a notary to agree to stamp one that states you can apply for passports until they are 18 years old, (although the rules are changing all the time on this) these might seem like little things, but the least number of times you need his help the easier your life will be.   So it's best if she wants to marry a foreigner and move her kids abroad,  that you/she needs to start to get on good terms with him.

Maybe someone here can share their story with us and give us some tips on how to resolve this situation for the best interest of the children. We could of course go to court over this, but it would be lengthy and that would create even more resentment, which, if I can, I would prefer to avoid.



Thanks.
 

Again do a search, I have written about it on here long ago, no bribes were required but it can sometimes resolve the situation, the only problem is, you will be held to ransom every time you need a new document signing by him.

[niko]

Thanks everyone.

Chris, could you be kind enough to tell me what keywords to look for in the search box?
I used it but could not find what I was looking for.

I agree with you regarding the good relationship with the ex, thanks for the tip for passports until the age of 18

[BCKev]

Thanks everyone.

Chris, could you be kind enough to tell me what keywords to look for in the search box?
I used it but could not find what I was looking for.

I agree with you regarding the good relationship with the ex, thanks for the tip for passports until the age of 18

Is the father's name on the children's birth certificates?   If it is not, the situation is greatly simplified.   


.

[niko]

Yes it is, and he even asked for paternity test before paying the insulting 'child maintenance'

[welder]

Lets say that my lady and him are not in the best of terms; she absolutely hates his guts for cheating on her, but she has agreed to overcome this and speak to him about signing the relevant papers.

I have written on here before about how to do this and what you need to do regards forms that need signing, and what needs to be included when kids are involved, if you do a search you might be able to find it, I haven't time right now to go over it again.

One thing I will say, this isn't simply one set of forms he will need to sign and that's the last you need to deal with him, he will be required to sign forms for various reasons at regular intervals until the kids are 18 years old. eg letter of authorities for the kids to leave Ukraine, and importantly, to visit/live abroad,  (don't specify one country that they are allowed to visit otherwise you will be after him again if you ever want to go anywhere else) passports, they need to renew them every three years, again a letter is required each time, unless you can get him to sign one and get a notary to agree to stamp one that states you can apply for passports until they are 18 years old, (although the rules are changing all the time on this) these might seem like little things, but the least number of times you need his help the easier your life will be.   So it's best if she wants to marry a foreigner and move her kids abroad,  that you/she needs to start to get on good terms with him.

Maybe someone here can share their story with us and give us some tips on how to resolve this situation for the best interest of the children. We could of course go to court over this, but it would be lengthy and that would create even more resentment, which, if I can, I would prefer to avoid.



Thanks.
 

Again do a search, I have written about it on here long ago, no bribes were required but it can sometimes resolve the situation, the only problem is, you will be held to ransom every time you need a new document signing by him.

This is not the experience of my SIL.  She was able to convince the father to waive his paternal rights to the child in front of a judge.  The ruling gave her sole custody and removed all rights of the father.  The father was willing to do this as he seen the opportunities for his son to be much brighter in his new country.  The paternal father was still on OK terms with the family and she traveled back to Ukraine quite frequently, minimum 3 times per year. 

There may have been a "gift" for signing the documents in front of the judge.  It was a one time occurrence, no need for any future dealings with the paternal father. 

Again, you mileage may vary.  This scenario is different than what Chris presented in that the father was willing to give up his rights to the mother. 

[welder]

My guess is you'll have to pay him off.

There is the possibility that he wont let his kids live in Dubai. I wouldn't.

The positives of living in Dubai, far outweigh the negatives of living in Ukraine. 

[Manny]

My guess is you'll have to pay him off.

There is the possibility that he wont let his kids live in Dubai. I wouldn't.

The positives of living in Dubai, far outweigh the negatives of living in Ukraine.

You may have a point there.

[leslied]

If you have a good job in Dubai - It is a great place to live.  I am traveling there on Monday.  You have to have money though.  Life is tough for the imported Pakistani and Philapina workers, but like everyone else if they don't like it they can go home...

[andrewfi]

...but like everyone else if they don't like it they can go home...

If they are allowed to have their passports and permission to leave!

[niko]

If you have a good job in Dubai - It is a great place to live.  I am traveling there on Monday.  You have to have money though.  Life is tough for the imported Pakistani and Philapina workers, but like everyone else if they don't like it they can go home...

Enjoy your trip 
It's pretty hot here already 

[TomT]

Yes it is, and he even asked for paternity test before paying the insulting 'child maintenance'

Why do you consider child maintenance to be insulting?

[niko]

Yes it is, and he even asked for paternity test before paying the insulting 'child maintenance'

Why do you consider child maintenance to be insulting?

I don't consider child maintenance to be insulting. I consider THIS child maintenance to be insulting for the mother and the children; $10 a month from someone who has money and a business is simply not right; because he managed to convince some judge to let him pay the bare minimum, so that he appears like he is doing the right thing.

But this is good in a way, because we can use this as leverage to convince him to waive some of his absurd parental rights that keep the children in Ukraine for now, while he does not event want to see them. The last thing he wants, according my gf, is for other people to know in the town how much he is really (not) paying for his kids.

[AvHdB]

Some fathers in Ukraine and Russia will do the best thing for there sproglets, most in my expierence will not. Both Chris in reply #3 and BCKev #5 make very good points.

I will assume that the father is listed on the "birth certificate's". You have two possibilities a legal battle that is time consuming and can be expensieve or paying the "father" off to let his kids leave the country.

As also mentioned up thread I would avoid mentioning a specific country where you will be. A Muslim country will perhaps even in the judges eye be a negative. If the father wants to see the children post decree allowing them to leave, make sure it happens outside Ukraine/Russia.

[niko]

Since the father never saw his kids in the last 4 years or so, my GF has decided to deprive him of his father's rights, which sounds harsh, but the truth is that he does whatever he can to try to make her life miserable by using the kids as leverage by making them stay in Ukraine. But not with him, because he wants nothing to do with them.
The Ukrainian family law, from what I read translated into English on the internet, looks quite advanced to me in terms of child protection. Whether it is applied or not is another matter, but this is the route that we are going to go.

An interesting twist is that if he gets deprived of his father's rights, he will still have to pay child maintenance until they are 18; we clearly don't want his money, but to me this looks like good leverage to motivate him to reach an out of court settlement.

[niko]

So we took him to court, and we won. He lost his paternal rights even though he was paying child maintenance, and almost everyone said that because of this, it would be difficult to win this case. We did.

We did not offer him any money. We rejected his offers for out-of-court settlement and did not propose any out-of-court settlement. We took a local solicitor (after screening 5 or 6 of them), piled up one ton of documents, first with the child protection services, which unanimously decided in favour of the mother, and then with the court with my girlfriend bringing 5-10 neighbours as witnesses.

Feel free to PM me if you are in a similar situation.

[AvHdB]

So we took him to court, and we won. He lost his paternal rights even though he was paying child maintenance, and almost everyone said that because of this, it would be difficult to win this case. We did.

We did not offer him any money. We rejected his offers for out-of-court settlement and did not propose any out-of-court settlement. We took a local solicitor (after screening 5 or 6 of them), piled up one ton of documents, first with the child protection services, which unanimously decided in favour of the mother, and then with the court with my girlfriend bringing 5-10 neighbours as witnesses.

Feel free to PM me if you are in a similar situation.

Congratulations! 

[redroo]

well played.
Hoping for a happy future for your new family

[BCKev]

So we took him to court, and we won. He lost his paternal rights even though he was paying child maintenance, and almost everyone said that because of this, it would be difficult to win this case. We did.

We did not offer him any money. We rejected his offers for out-of-court settlement and did not propose any out-of-court settlement. We took a local solicitor (after screening 5 or 6 of them), piled up one ton of documents, first with the child protection services, which unanimously decided in favour of the mother, and then with the court with my girlfriend bringing 5-10 neighbours as witnesses.

Feel free to PM me if you are in a similar situation.

Glad to hear this worked out for you. 

[Markje]

Congrats!

[AvHdB]

Niko, Not to be a downer but are there any appeal options available to the father?

[niko]

Yes, there was a possibility for appeal and it expired one day ago (10 days after the judgement was issued)
Now the only way back for the father to regain parental rights is to take us back to court after a period of one year (as per the Ukrainian Family law), after which he will have to demonstrate that he is genuinely interested in his children, which I can't see happening, because he has neither the will or the interest to do so.

Thank you for the congrats messages. I am a father myself, and the last thing I wanted to happen was to prevent another dad from seeing his children. Having said that, his only interest in his own children was because he could interfere in our plans to rebuild a family. It is was a tough decision to make, and my responsibility now is to give those kids what their real father never gave them.