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Author Topic: The Western Propaganda Thread  (Read 84840 times)

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Offline krassavchick

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Re: The Western Propaganda Thread
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2015, 04:04:47 AM »
Much American kit captured from the Ukrainian army. Unlikely the western media will run this. Here is an example.
The joke on Twitter is the US is now the largest supplier of stuff to Novorossiya. Russians are tweeting @usarmy thanking them for the supplies.

Yeah, it has to be true if it comes from Russian media. Anyone could have created that document.  (:)

Offline Manny

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Re: The Western Propaganda Thread
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2015, 04:29:23 AM »
Much American kit captured from the Ukrainian army. Unlikely the western media will run this. Here is an example.
The joke on Twitter is the US is now the largest supplier of stuff to Novorossiya. Russians are tweeting @usarmy thanking them for the supplies.

Yeah, it has to be true if it comes from Russian media. Anyone could have created that document.  (:)

Go read Twitter. I doubt all the beaming blokes standing by US army kit is fake.

But on the document, are the rest fake too? http://slav.org.ua/2014/11/dokumentyi-podtverzhdayushhie-vyidelenie-ssha-soten-tyisyach-dollarov-voennyim-podderzhivayushhim-evromaydannuyu-kievskiyu-vlast/
Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<< - Read a trip report from South Korea, China and Hong Kong >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.

Offline krassavchick

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Re: The Western Propaganda Thread
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2015, 04:43:20 AM »
Go read Twitter. I doubt all the beaming blokes standing by US army kit is fake.

But on the document, are the rest fake too? http://slav.org.ua/2014/11/dokumentyi-podtverzhdayushhie-vyidelenie-ssha-soten-tyisyach-dollarov-voennyim-podderzhivayushhim-evromaydannuyu-kievskiyu-vlast/

That photo proves nothing, other than it is someone standing next to a box.  As for the document: you do realise how easy it is to forge something like that, right?


Offline Manny

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Re: The Western Propaganda Thread
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2015, 05:11:40 AM »
Go read Twitter. I doubt all the beaming blokes standing by US army kit is fake.

But on the document, are the rest fake too? http://slav.org.ua/2014/11/dokumentyi-podtverzhdayushhie-vyidelenie-ssha-soten-tyisyach-dollarov-voennyim-podderzhivayushhim-evromaydannuyu-kievskiyu-vlast/

That photo proves nothing, other than it is someone standing next to a box.  As for the document: you do realise how easy it is to forge something like that, right?

So you are saying they are all fake at the link?

Lets get it right: According to you, documents and photos prove nothing, but grainy satellite images and stock photos with some writing and arrows are proof? Can you see the double standard here?
Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<< - Read a trip report from South Korea, China and Hong Kong >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.

Offline krassavchick

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Re: The Western Propaganda Thread
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2015, 05:36:28 AM »
So you are saying they are all fake at the link?

Lets get it right: According to you, documents and photos prove nothing, but grainy satellite images and stock photos with some writing and arrows are proof? Can you see the double standard here?

Firstly, I've never stated satellite images were proof.  Secondly, If those photos of the Pantsir-1 posted by the UK foreign office aren't proof for you and others, then a photo of a silver box and a boot is certainly not proof that the US is arming Ukraine.  You can't apply deflection tactics or rubbish potential proof and then try to use the same method of evidence.    The US has sent non-lethal aid to Ukraine; as has Canada, Italy, France and quite a few other countries.

As for the documents: IF they prove to be real, it'll be all over the news, don't worry about that; and I'll be ready to admit it [unlike some here who just disappear for a while].  Until that moment, they look dubious to me to say the least.

Offline Manny

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Re: The Western Propaganda Thread
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2015, 05:45:51 AM »
As for the documents: IF they prove to be real, it'll be all over the news, don't worry about that; and I'll be ready to admit it [unlike some here who just disappear for a while].  Until that moment, they look dubious to me to say the least.

It doesn't fit the narrative, so it wont be all over the news. Tons of stuff in this isn't making the news in the west.

What is making the news is silly stuff like this:



Which is total crap. The Russian planes were in international airspace, and there was no clash. Daily propaganda fed to the sheeple as Russian "aggression". Its now quite blatant actually, much of it bare faced lies.

Russian Warship in English Channel" they were howling yesterday, not mentioning that it is one of Europes busiest shipping lanes and the boat was again in international waters. Down near the bottom of the article we find out this is not in fact news:

Quote
It is understood that the Russian vessels complied with all maritime reporting regulations - they did not encroach on British waters and abided by the correct regulations while passing through the Strait of Dover.

Meanwhile, the Foreign Office is trying to dissuade journalists who they dont approve of from reporting.
Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<< - Read a trip report from South Korea, China and Hong Kong >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.

Offline krassavchick

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Re: The Western Propaganda Thread
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2015, 06:00:18 AM »

It doesn't fit the narrative, so it wont be all over the news. Tons of stuff in this isn't making the news in the west.
 Which is total crap. The Russian planes were in international airspace, and there was no clash. Daily propaganda fed to the sheeple as Russian "aggression". Its now quite blatant actually, much of it bare faced lies.

"Russian frigate in English Channel" they were howling yesterday, not mentioning that it is one of Europes busiest shipping lanes and the boat was again in international waters.

Like i said, if those documents are real, it will come out.  It may not be in the mainstream Western media but it will come out.  There are more than enough independent sources and journalists for that to happen.  In this day and age, mainstrean media should only be used as a reference anyway.  However, there is still no compairson to the stuff Russian media shows as truth: one only needs to go back to the 'crucified boy' story, and the actress 'mother' who has popped up a few times during this conflict.  :chuckle:

Offline rosco

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Re: The Western Propaganda Thread
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2015, 07:10:37 AM »
UK House of Lords admits culpability:

http://news.yahoo.com/errors-over-ukraine-catastrophic-uk-parliament-report-023746893.html

 Why politicians have never figured it out that dictators don't give a shit about their peoples suffering, so sanctions usually fail to reach their intended goals.  Why they think Putin is any different is wishful thinking he will play nice.

I suspect the idea is to strangle the people, thus making them revolt against their current leaders. It's always the same though, the pricks who call the shots never actually suffer themselves.

Offline rosco

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Re: The Western Propaganda Thread
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2015, 07:18:13 AM »
Manny - I've kept out of these Western/Russian tit for tats we've had all over the forum, mainly because I actually see a bit of truth in it from both sides.

However, lets cut the BS and call the Russian bombers out for what it is. They shouldn't be flying bombers round the British Isles on a regular basis, Intl airspace or not. They're ramping it up, showing their teeth and seeing what kind of air defence we have. Games or not, when you play like that it only serves to escalate the political situation.

I'd love to see their reaction should we all fly formations of hi tech bombers over the arctic every other day and kiss the Inl airspace boundary. Let's face it, it aint cool.  :biggrin:

Offline Tom Cat

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Re: The Western Propaganda Thread
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2015, 08:14:56 AM »
http://rt.com/news/233231-putin-ukraine-conflict-west/

Seems the propaganda comes from both sides. :coffeeread:

What do you mean? The factual basis of each point in the article is clear (unless one's knowledge is deficient) the truce is largely holding, there's concrete evidence of NATO/US presence in Ukraine, plenty of concrete evidence of materiel from NATO sources and even agreements from NATO countries to supply Ukraine. Russia's perspective on Ukraine and the situation there has been clear and consistent.

While it is true that all stakeholders use news media to convey a chosen emotional response that is based upon talking points that may well be counterfactual this is not even close to being a good example.

Andrew,
The emphasis on the west supplying weapons and arms is an exaggeration, in that the amount is minimal.

Putin has said if the United states supplies lethal weapons Russia would consider it an act of war.
Any weapon can be lethal, so why would Putin not be more assertive in challenging the west?
Russia is firmly in the driver's seat at this moment,so one would expect a much stronger reaction from the Russian side if there was concrete evidence of such weapons.

I would not expect Putin to lower himself to same level as the fine folks in Washington.

Much American kit captured from the Ukrainian army. Unlikely the western media will run this. Here is an example.





The joke on Twitter is the US is now the largest supplier of stuff to Novorossiya. Russians are tweeting @usarmy thanking them for the supplies.

Manny,
It was clear from the beginning the United states funded the protests and started this conflict.
To say Russia has no involvement when it involves Russian interests is just not true.
When a group of rebels can take on a nation's military and hand them loss, it becomes clear they had helpful neighbors.

This event should have never happened, but it did,and there were multiple contributors .
Russia being one of them.

The end result shows the rebels were better supplied.
Don't shoot the messenger, links to articles posted, don't necessarily reflect my personal opinion.

Offline WestCoast

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Re: The Western Propaganda Thread
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2015, 11:13:16 AM »
http://rt.com/news/233231-putin-ukraine-conflict-west/

Seems the propaganda comes from both sides. :coffeeread:

What do you mean? The factual basis of each point in the article is clear (unless one's knowledge is deficient) the truce is largely holding, there's concrete evidence of NATO/US presence in Ukraine, plenty of concrete evidence of materiel from NATO sources and even agreements from NATO countries to supply Ukraine. Russia's perspective on Ukraine and the situation there has been clear and consistent.

While it is true that all stakeholders use news media to convey a chosen emotional response that is based upon talking points that may well be counterfactual this is not even close to being a good example.

Andrew,
The emphasis on the west supplying weapons and arms is an exaggeration, in that the amount is minimal.

Putin has said if the United states supplies lethal weapons Russia would consider it an act of war.
Any weapon can be lethal, so why would Putin not be more assertive in challenging the west?
Russia is firmly in the driver's seat at this moment,so one would expect a much stronger reaction from the Russian side if there was concrete evidence of such weapons.

I would not expect Putin to lower himself to same level as the fine folks in Washington.

Much American kit captured from the Ukrainian army. Unlikely the western media will run this. Here is an example.





The joke on Twitter is the US is now the largest supplier of stuff to Novorossiya. Russians are tweeting @usarmy thanking them for the supplies.

Old news Manny the Army letter and other documents were published in November 2014. There are probably even earlier versions floating around the Internet if you want to look.  As the article states (Zero Hedge version) there's no way to verify the authenticity of any of the documents.

http://pontiactribune.com/2014-in-review-the-5-biggest-stories-in-the-world/ Close to the bottom of the article.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-11-25/hacked-us-documents-said-reveal-extent-undisclosed-us-lethal-aid-ukraine-army
http://cyber-berkut.org/en/

Edit: To add I have no idea if the US is supplying the Ukrainian military with lethal aid but I wouldn't be surprised if they were. I'm surprised it took them so long to do it. Also why bother with all the secrecy. The Ukrainian government is corrupt and incompetent so any secret deals with the US are bound to see the light of day, sooner rather than later.

The Russians have been aiding Putin's puppets for far longer with military aid and manpower. As during the days of the Cold War the Ukraine conflict is basically a proxy war between the US and the USSR's successor, Russia.
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Offline sashathecat

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Re: The Western Propaganda Thread
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2015, 05:07:57 PM »
More Western propaganda. My wife tells me it is a pleasant report on Russian soldiers fighting without insignia in Ukraine.

http://www.kommersant.ru/doc/2671088


Offline Mikeav8r

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Re: The Western Propaganda Thread
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2015, 10:45:13 PM »
Just a casual observation from a neutral party here...but, why would it be box 2 of 2 when 3 were supposedly shipped and why the hand written serial number amongst a stenciled crate stamp?  I have seen many military shipments of various types and sizes (and contents) in my day and have never seen a hand written serial number on any of them...the military stencils EVERYTHING....just sayin.

I also thought the counter mortar/artillery radars were a tad bit larger than that but I could be mistaken....then again, I suppose it could be two boxes to assemble one radar...shrug.
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Offline Tom Cat

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Re: The Western Propaganda Thread
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2015, 11:21:24 PM »
I read the article. So its all true what Putin says. There is no Russian army in Ukraine, only Volunteers without official status.

General Lentsov: in suitable separatist uniform and ushanka, and who was recognised on Russian social media.  Always good to go direct to the source in such matters.  The interview with 'him' starts at the 10 minute mark:

 
Now, compare him in uniform:


General Lentsov is with the OSCE, this article is from November 2014, and mentioned him being in Ukraine.
Quote
On 23 November General Askarov told the SMM that the Ukrainian JCCC contingent would investigate the reports of shelling in and around Debaltseve and share its findings with General Lentsov.
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/127184
Don't shoot the messenger, links to articles posted, don't necessarily reflect my personal opinion.

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Re: The Western Propaganda Thread
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2015, 11:52:48 PM »
General Lentsov is with the OSCE, this article is from November 2014, and mentioned him being in Ukraine.
Quote
On 23 November General Askarov told the SMM that the Ukrainian JCCC contingent would investigate the reports of shelling in and around Debaltseve and share its findings with General Lentsov.
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/127184

Yes, good catch. This tthread of western propaganda is really becoming worthwhile. Just like the debunking of the 'bearded soldier' thing back in March 2014.
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Offline zhdatdlyatebya

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Re: The Western Propaganda Thread
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2015, 11:59:43 PM »
It is clear that the Russians are lying about their direct involvement in Ukraine. Why are so many seemingly intelligent posters trying so hard to prove a western role in a Kremlin show?

 
была не была - come what may

Offline Tom Cat

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Re: The Western Propaganda Thread
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2015, 12:33:28 AM »
Don't shoot the messenger, links to articles posted, don't necessarily reflect my personal opinion.

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Re: The Western Propaganda Thread
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2015, 03:07:20 AM »
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/02/17/origin-of-artillery-attacks/

Someone put some time and effort into this.  :coffeeread:

Hey, this is russian propaganda, it should not be in this thread  :snivel:
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Offline Vinnvinny

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Re: The Western Propaganda Thread
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2015, 03:33:31 AM »
It is clear that the Russians are lying about their direct involvement in Ukraine. Why are so many seemingly intelligent posters trying so hard to prove a western role in a Kremlin show?

Spousal brainwashing.

Offline Manny

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Re: The Western Propaganda Thread
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2015, 04:50:39 AM »
It is clear that the Russians are lying about their direct involvement in Ukraine. Why are so many seemingly intelligent posters trying so hard to prove a western role in a Kremlin show?

Spousal brainwashing.

Yes, perish the thought that some with the smarts to get this right actually managed to form an opinion of their own.  (:)
Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<< - Read a trip report from South Korea, China and Hong Kong >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.

Offline NS1

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Re: The Western Propaganda Thread
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2015, 05:18:11 AM »
It is clear that the Russians are lying about their direct involvement in Ukraine. Why are so many seemingly intelligent posters trying so hard to prove a western role in a Kremlin show?

Spousal brainwashing.

Yes, perish the thought that some with the smarts to get this right actually managed to form an opinion of their own.  (:)
Then you fell out of bed and woke up :chuckle:
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Offline Vinnvinny

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Re: The Western Propaganda Thread
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2015, 05:33:04 AM »
It is clear that the Russians are lying about their direct involvement in Ukraine. Why are so many seemingly intelligent posters trying so hard to prove a western role in a Kremlin show?

Spousal brainwashing.

Yes, perish the thought that some with the smarts to get this right actually managed to form an opinion of their own.  (:)

Perish indeed. One wonders why those that sympathise with Russia are the only ones to possess such ‘smarts’, whilst those who don’t share such sympathies are unable to think for themselves? One of life’s mysteries I believe .....

Offline Manny

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Re: The Western Propaganda Thread
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2015, 06:40:57 AM »
One wonders why those that sympathise with Russia are the only ones to possess such ‘smarts’, whilst those who don’t share such sympathies are unable to think for themselves? One of life’s mysteries I believe .....

Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<< - Read a trip report from South Korea, China and Hong Kong >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.


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Re: The Western Propaganda Thread
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2015, 07:06:56 AM »
Just a casual observation from a neutral party here...but, why would it be box 2 of 2 when 3 were supposedly shipped and why the hand written serial number amongst a stenciled crate stamp?  I have seen many military shipments of various types and sizes (and contents) in my day and have never seen a hand written serial number on any of them...the military stencils EVERYTHING....just sayin.

I also thought the counter mortar/artillery radars were a tad bit larger than that but I could be mistaken....then again, I suppose it could be two boxes to assemble one radar...shrug.

Apparently this equipment is notable for its small size. Typical units are truck mounted,  but also have additional capabilities such as incoming target location (as opposed to locating fire position) and also control of outgoing fire. Unit mentioned in this context locates fire locations alone - from what I have read.
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