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Author Topic: The Right Wing in Ukraine  (Read 7672 times)

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Offline krassavchick

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The Right Wing in Ukraine
« on: September 28, 2014, 05:20:37 AM »
They will deny it, but of course they do.
Quote
Who do you think is there, activly supporting a Nazi government

Statements such as this is why I don't take you seriously.  The just dissolved Rada was controlled by Batkivschyna, the party that controlled the Rada during Yushchenko's presidency.  Funny they weren't Nazis then, huh?
Strange, I thought Svoboda and Pravi Sektor were the ones who won when Yanukovich fled.

They are definatly nazi's.

Most of the people protesting on Maidan supported neither Pravyi Sekhtor nor Svoboda.

Both parties are far right, but they are not Nazis.  In fact, before becoming "official", Svoboda was organized and founded by a former Komsomol leader.  It can be described as extreme right wing, and in the West, it is described as having Nazi roots, but if you believe all the former commies running these parties have a right wing ideology, then you are incredibly naive.  But, even putting that aside, were either running the most recent Rada?  No.  Praviy Sekhtor doesn't have any elected members, Svoboda comprised 8% of the Rada.  Did their candidate garner much support in the presidential election?  No.  Far less than right wing candidates in all those "politically advanced" EU countries.

As for Ukraine's cabinet, here is the current cabinet.  Note the ethnic make up in this "Nazi" government.  Note the "far right" clout.

Arseniy Yatsenyuk
Oleksandr Sych
Volodymyr Groysman
Pavlo Petrenko
Pavlo Klimkin
Oleksandr Shlapak
Lyudmyla Denisova
Oleh Musiy
Pavlo Sheremeta
Anatoli Maksyuta
Serhi Kvit
Yevhen Nyshchuk
Valeriy Heletey
Arsen Avakov
Ihor Shvaika
Yuri Prodan
Andriy Mokhnyk
Maksym Burbak
Dmytro Bulatov
Ostap Semerak

You and Andrew can post all you wish otherwise.  It does not make it reality.

Halo, don't try and ruin some people's perception with facts!

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Re: The Right Wing in Ukraine
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2014, 03:07:12 PM »
Both parties are far right, but they are not Nazis.  In fact, before becoming "official", Svoboda was organized and founded by a former Komsomol leader.  It can be described as extreme right wing, and in the West, it is described as having Nazi roots, but if you believe all the former commies running these parties have a right wing ideology, then you are incredibly naive. 
If it walks like a nazi,
Talks like a nazi
And is caught on video with nazi-symbols shouting "sieg heil!" then its a nazi in my book, no matter their political views.
More than once, members of Svoboda, Pravi sektor, were, in fact caught on video shouting nazi crap wearing nazi costumes.

And just for you, a very informative video : http://www.ibtimes.com/svoboda-rising-spectre-neo-nazism-ukraine-974110

And just look how many of these nazi's you recognise, might be a bit of a shock to you.

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But, even putting that aside, were either running the most recent Rada?  No.  Praviy Sekhtor doesn't have any elected members, Svoboda comprised 8% of the Rada.  Did their candidate garner much support in the presidential election?  No.  Far less than right wing candidates in all those "politically advanced" EU countries.
The rada only functions when the people in the streets are *not* riotting against you and there is some normal form of government.

+ I look at their actions and words both.

Yanukovich: Many months of peaceful protesting.
Poroshenko: First day of power, sics the army on his own citizens.

I'd rather have the former.

Quote
As for Ukraine's cabinet, here is the current cabinet.  Note the ethnic make up in this "Nazi" government.  Note the "far right" clout.

You and Andrew can post all you wish otherwise.  It does not make it reality.
I wasn't talking about current cabinet. Do not try to deflect.

Mark
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Offline Halo

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Re: The Right Wing in Ukraine
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2014, 03:33:28 PM »
Your videos prove nothing.  A former devoted commie does not turn into a nazi overnight.  You are among the bleating sheep masses, with little understanding of what is behind this.

The months of "peaceful protesting" under Yanukovych were met with beatings by police, clashes between different protesting factions,  and culminated in the shooting deaths of over 100 protesters. 

The Ukrainian army was deployed after the torture and murders of Ukrainian citizens, extra judicial justice (shootings for petty crimes), and terrorizing of entire regions by paid mercenaries and common criminals. 

As for the Cabinet of Ministers, in March, when first proposed, 10 were from Batkivshchyna, 15 were independents, and 3 were from Svoboda, with two of those Svoboda positions at the outset being declared interim, until the president was appointed.  By mid April, that had  been changed to 20 members cabinet 4 of whom were from Svoboda (2 of those were interim) 5 from Batkivshchyna,  7 independents.

So, you are mistaken on that count as well.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten


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Re: The Right Wing in Ukraine
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2014, 03:34:23 PM »
For those of you who are truly interested in what pravi-sektor is all about, check their propaganda movie (worse than isis's movies)

(odno account necessary)

 http://www.odnoklassniki.ru/video/13756926541

Also a funny one.


So halo it appears you are right, they are not nazi's  they are terrorists plain and simple. They just use nazi as an excuse like isis uses islam as excuse for their atrocities.

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Offline Halo

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Re: The Right Wing in Ukraine
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2014, 03:43:03 PM »
Pravyi Sekhtor is fighting paid mercenaries for the independence of Ukraine.  When captured by the real terrorists in the Donbas, their members are tortured and executed.  They are no more terrorists than resistance to German occupiers was terrorism.

Do I agree with the ultra nationalism of Svoboda or Pravyi Sekhtor?  No.  But the thuggery of the terrorists occupying the Donbas and their Putinista allies is far more dangerous to Ukrainians.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

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Re: The Right Wing in Ukraine
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2014, 03:44:21 PM »
Pravyi Sekhtor is fighting paid mercenaries for the independence of Ukraine.  When captured by the real terrorists in the Donbas, their members are tortured and executed.  They are no more terrorists than resistance to German occupiers was terrorism.

Do I agree with the ultra nationalism of Svoboda or Pravyi Sekhtor?  No.  But the thuggery of the terrorists occupying the Donbas and their Putinista allies is far more dangerous to Ukrainians.

You obviously did not watch the odnoklassniki movie. I'd call that terrorism plain and simple.
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Offline Halo

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Re: The Right Wing in Ukraine
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2014, 03:51:33 PM »
You obviously haven't been following what has occurred, and is occurring as we post in Donbas, all with the support of the Russian government.  I'd call that terrorism to the n th degree, plain and simple.  See this report -

http://www.vocativ.com/world/ukraine-world/faces-pravy-sektor-ukraine/

And no, I am not going to register an account to watch a video which is most likely a disinformation campaign for a largely Russian audience.  It also won't change the fact your posts about "nazis" controlling Ukraine's government was absolutely false. 

Here is a good synopsis by an expert on Ukraine -

Quote
Dmytro Yarosh, the leader of the ultranationalist movement Right Sector, is wanted in Russia for "terrorism." Yarosh and others were key figures in the escalation of violence at Euromaidan. He demands that the Party of Regions and Communist Party be banned and wishes to remove all "foreign influences" from Ukraine. Yarosh also intends to run for president, but he is a marginal figure at best with no chance of winning the race. Kremlin propaganda loves to speak of the "fascist threat" coming from Right Sector and Svoboda party, but their influence on Ukraine's political landscape is greatly overblown.

But Russia's leaders would prefer Yarosh to remain prominent because he is a useful bogeyman.
Above all, they want to prolong in power the weak and ineffective government led by Turchynov and acting Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/dismantling-ukraine/498087.html
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

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Re: The Right Wing in Ukraine
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2014, 04:05:26 PM »
You obviously haven't been following what has occurred, and is occurring as we post in Donbas, all with the support of the Russian government.  I'd call that terrorism to the n th degree, plain and simple.  See this report -

http://www.vocativ.com/world/ukraine-world/faces-pravy-sektor-ukraine/

And no, I am not going to register an account to watch a video which is most likely a disinformation campaign for a largely Russian audience.  It also won't change the fact your posts about "nazis" controlling Ukraine's government was absolutely false.

I am going with the rest. You live in fairy-land.
If you love Ukraine, you wouldn't even try to defend pravi-sektor and/or svoboda.
Those 2 are bad news, wether you are pro-putin or pro-poroshenko, both parties activly try to get rid of them.

I suggest you read up on them, both western and eastern media. If you don't, i will also stop to take you seriously.
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Offline Halo

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Re: The Right Wing in Ukraine
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2014, 04:08:53 PM »
I have read up on them, and likely know a lot more about them, their origins, and their leaders, than you ever will.  I did not glean my information from videos.

From a political perspective, they are no worse than right wing parties in the EU.  However, they have far less support locally than do their EU counterparts, or, for that matter, their comparable counterparts in Russia.  Funny how no one ever brings up the latter.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline krassavchick

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Re: The Right Wing in Ukraine
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2014, 07:05:36 PM »
You obviously haven't been following what has occurred, and is occurring as we post in Donbas, all with the support of the Russian government.  I'd call that terrorism to the n th degree, plain and simple.  See this report -

http://www.vocativ.com/world/ukraine-world/faces-pravy-sektor-ukraine/

And no, I am not going to register an account to watch a video which is most likely a disinformation campaign for a largely Russian audience.  It also won't change the fact your posts about "nazis" controlling Ukraine's government was absolutely false.

I am going with the rest. You live in fairy-land.
If you love Ukraine, you wouldn't even try to defend pravi-sektor and/or svoboda.
Those 2 are bad news, wether you are pro-putin or pro-poroshenko, both parties activly try to get rid of them.

I suggest you read up on them, both western and eastern media. If you don't, i will also stop to take you seriously.

It's you that are living in fairy-land!    You call the government in Kiev Nazis when in fact it was elected by the Ukrainian people.  So are you calling all Ukrainians who voted for Poroshenko Nazis?  Did you know Pavel Gubarev of the DPR was formerly a member of the RNU?  Or do Russian neo-Nazis not count?  So Svoboda got what, 1.16 of the vote in May and Praviy Sektor got 0.70.......... Wow, the country is simply drowning in Nazis (:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2014

Compare that to Marine Le penn in France who gained a massive 25% in the recent European elections. 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/25/marine-le-pen-confidence-proves-vindicated-front-national

Most countries in Europe have a problem with far right extremism, some it would seem more than others.     Geert Wilders got 12% of the Dutch vote in the European Elections.  Praviy Sektor and Svoboda parties are not the 'Nazi government' in Kiev as you have written.  Really, I don't know why Halo bothers.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/10850610/European-election-upset-for-Geert-Wilders-as-Dutch-turn-cold-on-anti-EU-party.html

Offline Annushka

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Re: The Right Wing in Ukraine
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2014, 09:25:52 PM »
Ukraine in the shit. And the Ukrainians phase shift (Madness and insanity). This is not just my opinion.  :thumbsup:

Reports of mass graves near Donetsk to be investigated by UN.

en.itar-tass.com/world/751439

Offline Halo

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Re: The Right Wing in Ukraine
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2014, 09:31:22 PM »
The last mass grave uncovered in Donbas contained the bodies of evangelical Christians, killed by the terrorists allegedly for aiding ATO, but locals say that was untrue, and they were killed because they were not Orthodox.

There has been the complete destruction of Protestant churches in the region by terrorists, and the torture of ministers and priests.  This is anathema to Orthodox believers, but it is what Orthodoxy has become in that particular region, just another tool of the (Russian) state.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Donhollio

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Re: The Right Wing in Ukraine
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2014, 09:35:33 PM »
Ukraine in the shit. And the Ukrainians phase shift (Madness and insanity). This is not just my opinion.  :thumbsup:

Reports of mass graves near Donetsk to be investigated by UN.

en.itar-tass.com/world/751439


Annushka with your English reading ability I would urge you to seek out news media that are not controlled by the Russian government.

 Voters? Any in the house wish to place an X in the poll?

Offline Annushka

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Re: The Right Wing in Ukraine
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2014, 09:45:04 PM »
Ukraine in the shit. And the Ukrainians phase shift (Madness and insanity). This is not just my opinion.  :thumbsup:

Reports of mass graves near Donetsk to be investigated by UN.

en.itar-tass.com/world/751439


Annushka with your English reading ability I would urge you to seek out news media that are not controlled by the Russian government.

 Voters? Any in the house wish to place an X in the poll?

В отличии от Вас, я активно перемешаюсь. И общаюсь с людьми из стран СНГ. На форуме я предоставила только ссылку. И, если Вы так настаиваете, с украинцами никто не хочет иметь никаких дел. Благодаря их любви к фашизму. tiphat

Offline Donhollio

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Re: The Right Wing in Ukraine
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2014, 09:48:21 PM »
Annushka with your English reading ability I would urge you to seek out news media that are not controlled by the Russian government.


В отличии от Вас, я активно перемешаюсь. И общаюсь с людьми из стран СНГ. На форуме я предоставила только ссылку. И, если Вы так настаиваете, с украинцами никто не хочет иметь никаких дел. Благодаря их любви к фашизму. tiphat

 Ya nee panimiyoo

Offline Annushka

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Re: The Right Wing in Ukraine
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2014, 09:59:13 PM »
Annushka with your English reading ability I would urge you to seek out news media that are not controlled by the Russian government.


В отличии от Вас, я активно перемешаюсь. И общаюсь с людьми из стран СНГ. На форуме я предоставила только ссылку. И, если Вы так настаиваете, с украинцами никто не хочет иметь никаких дел. Благодаря их любви к фашизму. tiphat

https://translate.google.ru/#ru/en/

 Ya nee panimiyoo

Offline Halo

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Re: The Right Wing in Ukraine
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2014, 11:01:36 PM »
Quote
И, если Вы так настаиваете, с украинцами никто не хочет иметь никаких дел. Благодаря их любви к фашизму

And yet, it is Russia, not Ukraine, under sanctions, and Russia, not Ukraine, trying to butt into Ukraine's Association Agreement with the EU. :laugh: :laugh:

As I have posted before, temnota.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Annushka

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Re: The Right Wing in Ukraine
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2014, 11:21:56 PM »
Quote
И, если Вы так настаиваете, с украинцами никто не хочет иметь никаких дел. Благодаря их любви к фашизму

And yet, it is Russia, not Ukraine, under sanctions, and Russia, not Ukraine, trying to butt into Ukraine's Association Agreement with the EU. :laugh: :laugh:

As I have posted before, temnota.

True fascist! :thumbsup:  :-*


Offline Orchid

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Re: The Right Wing in Ukraine
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2014, 11:39:20 PM »
Боже мой! Что это?  Это конец света?  :o

Offline Halo

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Re: The Right Wing in Ukraine
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2014, 11:46:40 PM »
Quote
True fascist! :thumbsup:  :-*

Do you believe the other side is any better?  Should I post photos of the dead at the hands of Russian mercenaries, or on the orders of the Muscovites such as Borodai and Strelkov?  Or at the hands of the local terrorists?  Or how about scenes from Chechnya, which was far more prolonged, and more vicious, than this war?

I certainly wouldn't be salivating at any such photos which I'd post, as you have.  Were those photos posted by you "with warmth"?

Once again, you prove my point.  Temnota.


After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Halo

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Re: The Right Wing in Ukraine
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2014, 11:48:55 PM »
Боже мой! Что это?  Это конец света?  :o

War is ugly, Orchid.  That's why it should be avoided.  Annushka is a textbook example of the effects of propaganda and the hatred which leads to such scenes. 
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Orchid

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Re: The Right Wing in Ukraine
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2014, 11:57:30 PM »
Боже мой! Что это?  Это конец света?  :o

War is ugly, Orchid.  That's why it should be avoided.  Annushka is a perfect example of the effects of propaganda and the hatred which leads to such scenes.

Ohhh.... Halo.
I am lost. I am crying. I cannot think straight.
These pictures just killed me.
Why? How can it be?

Offline Annushka

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Re: The Right Wing in Ukraine
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2014, 12:08:55 AM »
Quote
True fascist! :thumbsup:  :-*

Do you believe the other side is any better?  Should I post photos of the dead at the hands of Russian mercenaries, or on the orders of the Muscovites such as Borodai and Strelkov?  Or at the hands of the local terrorists?  Or how about scenes from Chechnya, which was far more prolonged, and more vicious, than this war?

I certainly wouldn't be salivating at any such photos which I'd post, as you have.  Were those photos posted by you "with warmth"?

Once again, you prove my point.  Temnota.

You live on the Internet. I do not like to repeat. Ukraine cursed all the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS). Bye-bye.  :)

Offline WestCoast

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Re: The Right Wing in Ukraine
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2014, 12:17:18 AM »
Quote
True fascist! :thumbsup:  :-*

Do you believe the other side is any better?  Should I post photos of the dead at the hands of Russian mercenaries, or on the orders of the Muscovites such as Borodai and Strelkov?  Or at the hands of the local terrorists?  Or how about scenes from Chechnya, which was far more prolonged, and more vicious, than this war?

I certainly wouldn't be salivating at any such photos which I'd post, as you have.  Were those photos posted by you "with warmth"?

Once again, you prove my point.  Temnota.

You live on the Internet. I do not like to repeat. Ukraine cursed all the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS). Bye-bye.  :)

Not all of the CIS, just Putin and his version of Russia. As for fascists, have you seen photos of Grozny after the first and second Chechen wars? How many innocents do you think died in those wars? Some reports have the death tolls well in excess of 100,000, most of them innocents.

Anything bad or immoral that has happened in Ukraine has happened in Russia and as long as Putin is in charge will continue to happen.
andrewfi says ''Proximity is almost no guarantee of authority" and "in many cases, distance gives a better picture with less emotional and subjective input."

That means I'm a subject matter expert on all things Russia, Ukraine and UK.

Offline Halo

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Re: The Right Wing in Ukraine
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2014, 12:23:36 AM »
Quote
You live on the Internet. I do not like to repeat. Ukraine cursed all the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS). Bye-bye.

No, I work a great deal, and almost all my work is online.  I am in my office right now, and likely will be until 2 a.m.  I usually log in when my documents print.  Tonight, I have a stack about 35 cm high, only 1/3 of which is printed.  I also type over 100 wpm.  But if it makes you feel somehow superior to think otherwise, go ahead.  Your opinion means nothing to me.  You were an informant on your classmates in Soviet times, and now you are just a bitter old woman.

As for Ukraine, if it is such a curse, why is Russia willing to send its troops to die there?
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten