Why aren't young women interested in older men any more?

[FredHill]

Dear Ladies

I read an article recently which said that attractive young Russian/Ukrainian women sometimes work in the sex industry to pay for their university fees. I don't understand why they would do this. Wouldn't it be better to marry an older Western man and let him pay for everything?

Cheers, Fred
Older Western Guy

[TomT]

... because the number of FSU women who are desperate to emigrate is a fraction of what it was in the 90s.

[WestCoast]

Fred the problem with your idea is that if a beautiful, young FSUW married an older western man she'd be obligated to move to his country. Fred let's face it no one from the west wants to immigrate to Russia/Ukraine or the 'stans and live there with his new wife.

This would mean interrupting her education so that she can learn English (or language of her new country), take time to get settled in her new country, go through immigration process when she can't work or go to school, etc, etc. All these additional factors would add years to her the time she requires to get her university degree. Add in other complicating factors such as children, inlaws, etc and she could add years more to her time in university.

Fred there is some good news. If you're old and have money it should be easy enough for you to find a beautiful young Russian/Ukrainian lover. My understanding is many are quite smart and realize if there is a large enough age difference AND the husband has a high enough net worth marriage is a good idea because the chances are he'll die early enough to leave the wife a rich relatively young widow. Something to keep in mind if you are old have money and are considering chasing the young women in the FSU. 

Edit: Just a final word of advice. IMHO, if you want to up your chances of getting the attentions of a lovely young FSUW you really need to learn Russian to at least the conversational level. It can only help you if you can carry on a conversation in her language.

[Annushka]

Dear Ladies

I read an article recently which said that attractive young Russian/Ukrainian women sometimes work in the sex industry to pay for their university fees. I don't understand why they would do this. Wouldn't it be better to marry an older Western man and let him pay for everything?

Cheers, Fred
Older Western Guy

Great idea, gentlemens -  grandfathers!

[FredHill]

Great idea, gentlemens -  grandfathers!

Uh, I'm not that old, Anna.

...if a beautiful, young FSUW married an older western man she'd be obligated to move to his country. Fred let's face it no one from the west wants to immigrate to Russia/Ukraine or the 'stans and live there with his new wife.

Not necessarily. I'd be fine, relocating to the East once I've tied up all my loose ends out here.

This would mean interrupting her education so that she can learn English (or language of her new country), take time to get settled in her new country, go through immigration process when she can't work or go to school, etc, etc.

I think you've been misinformed, WestCoast. According to my sources, many of these women are working in Asian tourist centers, saving up the money they need to complete their education. In short, they've already left their homelands and undergone the difficulties associated with visa, immigration and so on. If they're willing to go to such lengths already, why not just marry some old geezer who's willing to pay their university expenses? I mean, the guy may not be Tom Cruise, but if he's kind, decent and generous, marriage would have to be preferable to prostitution.

[FredHill]

... because the number of FSU women who are desperate to emigrate is a fraction of what it was in the 90s.

Yes, I understand that, Tom, but why are so many young women going into the foreign sex trade? Is it preferable to old-fashioned marriage?

[JayH]

Dear Ladies

I read an article recently which said that attractive young Russian/Ukrainian women sometimes work in the sex industry to pay for their university fees. I don't understand why they would do this. Wouldn't it be better to marry an older Western man and let him pay for everything?

Cheers, Fred
Older Western Guy

Fred-you are making an underlying presumption that there is are large numbers doing this. As a percentage it is miniscule who finish up in the sex industry. You write as if this is the rule-not a tiny exception.
Secondly-- you show zero understanding of Ukrainian women generally.

[sashathecat]

Some of the women are forced into the industry. Some may enjoy the freedom or the sense of empowerment. Most probably make more money in the sex industry than they would with an old geezer.

[WestCoast]

...if a beautiful, young FSUW married an older western man she'd be obligated to move to his country. Fred let's face it no one from the west wants to immigrate to Russia/Ukraine or the 'stans and live there with his new wife.

Not necessarily. I'd be fine, relocating to the East once I've tied up all my loose ends out here.

Fred you'd be one of the very few then. Never spent time in Russia. However spent lots of time in China and I'm close enough to 60 to be considered old. I'd not want to be a senior and have to rely on the medical treatment available outside of Moscow or St. Pete.

This would mean interrupting her education so that she can learn English (or language of her new country), take time to get settled in her new country, go through immigration process when she can't work or go to school, etc, etc.

I think you've been misinformed, WestCoast. According to my sources, many of these women are working in Asian tourist centers, saving up the money they need to complete their education. In short, they've already left their homelands and undergone the difficulties associated with visa, immigration and so on. If they're willing to go to such lengths already, why not just marry some old geezer who's willing to pay their university expenses? I mean, the guy may not be Tom Cruise, but if he's kind, decent and generous, marriage would have to be preferable to prostitution.

True there are a fair number of FSUW in places like Thailand also the Middle East but they're a different type of woman than most western men want to marry. Also the methods of entry into these countries, if voluntary, is simply tourist or working visas that would be easily obtained by just about anyone, then simply overstay the visa. No need for an extensive education or even learning a new language.

By comparison finding a suitable rich western man could take several years. Finding a suitable agency or agencies, placing ads, sorting through possible suitors, if there are any takes time. Is he nice or a psychopath? Will he visit or does he just like to chat? Is he a sex tourist? How long will the immigration process take? How rich is he? How does she know his net worth? How does she dump him after he's paid for her education? All Americans are violent and have guns it says so on Russian TV, how can she ask for a divorce and survive? These are just a few of the questions a FSUW might have to ask herself if she decides to take your route for financing her education.

In probably less time, if done voluntarily, a FSUW could earn enough money to pay for her education and start to a new life via the sex trade in the Middle East or Asia. To you and me a disagreeable way to earn a living but perhaps acceptable to someone with lower life expectations.

Also many of those women may be there against their will. The media is full of sex trade stories of abducted FSUW being traded on the Asian/Middle East sex trade market. An interesting topic to hypothesize about but I don't think I'd want any woman to have to make either choice.

[sashathecat]

Another thought. How many strippers have you heard say they are trying to pay their way through college? Just about all of them, while in reality very few actually are. It is a cover and pity story to get a couple extra bucks.

[FredHill]

Some of the women are forced into the industry.

I'm not talking about human trafficking. The articles I read stated that these women were going into the Asian sex trade for financial reasons and of their own free will.

Some may enjoy the freedom or the sense of empowerment.

Most women find prostitution a degrading and humiliating experience. This is particularly true in conservative cultures such as Russia or Ukraine.

Most probably make more money in the sex industry than they would with an old geezer.

That's a very cynical view indeed. I was under the impression that Eastern women were more family-oriented in their objectives.

[Halo]

Ukrainian society is not conservative.

As for why?  Why would laying under an old geezer your father's age or older, cooking his meals, cleaning for him, and dealing with his family, be a preferable choice?  It is still prostitution, just in a different form.

[sashathecat]

Some may enjoy the freedom or the sense of empowerment.

Most women find prostitution a degrading and humiliating experience. This is particularly true in conservative cultures such as Russia or Ukraine.

I would agree with you that most women anywhere in the world would see it this way. But how do those who choose this trade see it? Interesting study on high end Russian prostitutes.

"High end prostitution among Russians is socially accepted and often encouraged by women's parents and spouses; the money earned through prostitution allows for upward social mobility and increased social status."

http://research.berkeley.edu/stronach/winners.php?page=Katya_Moiseeva&group=2011&cid=f1

Most probably make more money in the sex industry than they would with an old geezer.

That's a very cynical view indeed. I was under the impression that Eastern women were more family-oriented in their objectives.

Eastern European women are all different. Generally I would agree many are more family oriented, but you have women of all sorts just like anywhere. If a woman can make $300 per hour several times a day five days a week that is much more than most husbands hand their wives in cash. Toss in free vacations, expensive shoes and a few high end customers and it is a much different lifestyle than a middle class American can provide. Not having to deal with all the nonsense Halo points out make it an easy decision for some.

[FredHill]

Is he nice or a psychopath?

Plenty of psychopaths in the Asian sex trade. Prostitution has always been a dangerous profession. I have difficulty believing that working in the sex industry would be significantly safer than getting married.

How does she dump him after he's paid for her education?

Again, that's a highly cynical position to take. Not being critical here, but do you view all women as manipulative and avaricious?

there are a fair number of FSUW in places like Thailand also the Middle East but they're a different type of woman than most western men want to marry.

What type is that? Poor? Confused? Alone?
Again, if that's the case, I'd still argue that marriage would offer greater benefits than prostitution.

Also many of those women may be there against their will. The media is full of sex trade stories of abducted FSUW being traded on the Asian/Middle East sex trade market.

As stated above, I'm not talking about human trafficking. I'm referring specifically to women who go into the foreign sex trade under their own volition and understanding all the risks.

I'd not want to be a senior and have to rely on the medical treatment available outside of Moscow or St. Pete.

Your meaning is a little unclear here. In my long experience as an international traveler, I've always found medical and general living costs far cheaper than in my homeland.

[FredHill]

Ukrainian society is not conservative.

It's far more conservative than the West. That's one of the reasons why jaded American males are so desperate to latch onto Ukrainian women as potential life partners.

As for why?  Why would laying under an old geezer your father's age or older, cooking his meals, cleaning for him, and dealing with his family, be a preferable choice?  It is still prostitution, just in a different form.

I'm afraid I have to disagree. Sharing your life and home with someone who honestly cares about you is not prostitution.

Also, why do you assume that the male is looking for a domestic slave? In the real world, the majority of Western men are willing to fulfill an equal share of the responsibilities. Not kidding.

[Halo]

Ukrainian society is not conservative.

It's far more conservative than the West. That's one of the reasons why jaded American males are so desperate to latch onto Ukrainian women as potential life partners.

No it isn't.  I lived there.  My better half is from Ukraine.  The roles of men/women are more defined, but it is less conservative than the West, in most social matters, at least, less conservative than North America.

I'm afraid I have to disagree. Sharing your life and home with someone who honestly cares about you is not prostitution.

It is if you don't love them.

Also, why do you assume that the male is looking for a domestic slave? In the real world, the majority of Western men are willing to fulfill an equal share of the responsibilities. Not kidding.

Both my anecdotal observations, and studies indicate you are mistaken.

[FredHill]

Not having to deal with all the nonsense Halo points out make it an easy decision for some.

The operant word here is some. As you pointed out, not all women are the same, which means that not all women are greedy and materialistic. I can't really comment on the Berkley report, but the sources I consulted said that Russian uni students are going into prostitution out of desperation, not for "free vacations" or "expensive shoes". If this was all about wealth and lifestyle, they wouldn't bother going back to university. On the contrary; most of these women only want to make enough money to pay their living expenses throughout their college years, so that they can settle down into a more "normal" life after they graduate. Certainly, they don't want their families to know how they made their income during their time abroad. No matter how "high end" the customers are, working in a Thai (or Middle east) bordello is still prostitution, and I seriously doubt these women boast about it to their friends and relatives.

No, I'd still argue that marriage to a generous, good-natured older guy would be more beneficial than selling their bodies to complete strangers.

[sashathecat]

I have never heard of women doing this in Ukraine amongst any of my wife's friends to be honest. Not that they would admit to it if they did, but I seriously doubt it. It is not like the fall of the Soviet Union anymore. I am sure it may exist, I just have never heard of it.

[Halo]

Higher education in Ukraine, and AFAIK, in Russia, is free, or very heavily subsidized.  The Russian government even pays the tuitions of graduate students who enroll in elite Western or Chinese universities, provided they return to Russia at the end of their studies.  Therefore, there is no need for FSUW to work as a prostitutes to fund their educations.

[FredHill]

it is less conservative than the West, in most social matters, at least, less conservative than North America.

Please elaborate on this. For example, does Ukrainian society promote gay rights and lesbian marriage? Is unmarried motherhood considered an acceptable option to heterosexual parenthood? Is racial diversity encouraged amongst the general population? Do women have equal status with men in big business, federal government, the military and the police? Has the Ukrainian legal system outlawed hate speech, fascism and human rights abuses? If you can answer "yes" to each of these questions, I'll accept that Ukrainian culture is less conservative than the West.

It is if you don't love them.

Well, clearly, nobody should share their life and home with someone they don't care for. Nor have I suggested anybody should.

Both my anecdotal observations, and studies indicate you are mistaken.

You mentioned previously that your "better half" is from Ukraine. Assuming you're male and she's female, do you treat her like a bonded servant?

[Halo]

Please elaborate on this. For example, does Ukrainian society promote gay rights and lesbian marriage?

Does every US state?

I have an openly gay cousin in Kiev.  He even flaunts it.  He has no issues walking down the street, attending the opera with his lover, sitting in restaurants all over the city. 

I remember being in a village in Cherkassy oblast with the better half once.  A priest was visiting a man, and the villagers all stated the couple were lovers.  It was matter of fact, no one cared.

Is unmarried motherhood considered an acceptable option to heterosexual parenthood?

If you knew anything about Ukraine, you would not ask such a silly question.

Is racial diversity encouraged amongst the general population?

Is it encouraged in America?  African Americans commenting on blogs about racial profiling don't seem to believe so, nor do lots of comments by Westerners on Islam.  Including on this very forum.

Do women have equal status with men in big business, federal government, the military and the police?

Do they in North America?  There are a number of women in Ukraine in politics, and among the ranks of millionaires, although the attitude toward women is different.

Has the Ukrainian legal system outlawed hate speech, fascism and human rights abuses?

Human rights abuses are illegal, yes.  Fascism is not, but it isn't outlawed in North America, either.  Hate laws are undergoing a complete overhaul in my country, as it is found they don't work.  But, these are not indications of a conservative society, merely a non PC one. 

Well, clearly, nobody should share their life and home with someone they don't care for. Nor have I suggested anybody should.

Most young women don't want to marry men older than their fathers.  No matter what other men, or dating agencies, tell you.

You mentioned previously that your "better half" is from Ukraine. Assuming you're male and she's female, do you treat her like a bonded servant?

Yes, we're into bondage.

[FredHill]

I have an openly gay cousin in Kiev.  He even flaunts it.

You haven't really answered my question here, Halo. I didn't ask if homosexuality was accepted on an individual basis. I asked if gay rights and lesbian marriages were promoted within Ukraine society. Are any of your gay friends/relatives married? Can gay couples adopt children? If they can, then I'd say Ukraine is more liberal than the West in this regard.

If you knew anything about Ukraine, you would not ask such a silly question.

Well, to be honest, I don't know whether unmarried motherhood is considered an acceptable alternative in Ukraine. That's why I asked you. If the answer is "Yes", then again, I'd say that Ukraine is more liberal than the West.

RE: Racial diversity amongst the general population:

You gave no answer to this question, simply pointed out that the US has racial conflicts. So let me rephrase the question: is Ukraine more tolerant of interracial  relationships than the United states? If yes, then I'd say that Ukraine is extremely advanced in respect to race relations.

There are a number of women in Ukraine in politics, and among the ranks of millionaires, although the attitude toward women is different.

What number are we talking here? Above 50 percent? How about in the military and police forces?

Human rights abuses are illegal, yes.

That's good to hear. However, it's unfortunate that there has also been a significant decrease in the observance of human rights since 2010 in Ukraine, as pointed out by Amnesty International.

Fascism is not (illegal), but it isn't outlawed in North America, either.

So, Ukraine is just as conservative as North America in this regard?

Hate laws are undergoing a complete overhaul in my country, as it is found they don't work.  But, these are not indications of a conservative society, merely a non PC one.

Again, I have to disagree: unrestricted hate speech is one of the defining elements of both conservative and fascistic societies. Even the US, which prides itself on Constitutional Freedom of expression, has passed laws against hate speech. If the Ukraine is in the process of banning hate speech, I'd say that would be a benefit to society as a whole.

Most young women don't want to marry men older than their fathers.

I don't know that for fact, particularly considering that until the late 1950s, it was quite common for women to marry men considerably older than themselves (and for the most part, these weren't forced marriages either: women simply saw the advantages of marrying affluent and more experienced males). I think you're underestimating human nature if you claim that most people aren't capable of caring for an elder spouse.

Yes, we're into bondage.

OK, so you had personal reasons for seeking a submissive partner. However, not all western males share your sexual interests. Do you have any concrete evidence to support your claim that the majority of Western men view women as domestic servants rather than equals in the relationship?

[FredHill]

Fred-you are making an underlying presumption that there is are large numbers doing this. As a percentage it is miniscule who finish up in the sex industry. You write as if this is the rule-not a tiny exception.
Secondly-- you show zero understanding of Ukrainian women generally.

Actually Jay, I made no assumptions as to how many women are engaging in sex work - either Russian or Ukrainian - nor did I suggest that they be considered a majority. All I did was ask why attractive East European women would opt for prostitution when marriage to a financially stable older male could offer a solution to their economic problems.

[JayH]

Fred-- you keep making wide based assertions as a fact. The "west" as generally acknowledged covers a lot of countries-- it is clear enough to me that you are referring to US based conservatism-- which is on the extreme end of the conservative scale .Eg-- US is far more conservative than Australia on relationship issues( and generally)
If you had said Ukrainian girls have a high degree of morality- then I would not be disputing that.
The problem you have here is with wide assertions gleaned from  internet generalities is that it shows no comprehension of what you have READ !!

[Barnes]

Fred privet
In all due respect I think you are trolling sir. There's food for thought in this thread, and there has been some insightful considered posts, but it's far removed from any reality I can see.

Dear Ladies

I read an article recently which said that attractive young Russian/Ukrainian women sometimes work in the sex industry to pay for their university fees. I don't understand why they would do this. Wouldn't it be better to marry an older Western man and let him pay for everything?

Cheers, Fred
Older Western Guy

The answer is in your post. Seek and you'll find, it might take awhile though given the distance and language barrier