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Author Topic: MH17 - update ?  (Read 40864 times)

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Offline Moby

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MH17 - update ?
« on: September 04, 2014, 02:52:29 AM »
Amazing to read the views of posters who support Putin's actions in Ukraine

Hands up who still think the separatists weren't / aren't getting help from Moscow


What I cannot understand is why we haven't had the initial findings re MH17.

It is promised for this week.





Offline Manny

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Re: MH17 - update ?
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2014, 07:41:42 AM »
The American position.

Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<< - Read a trip report from South Korea, China and Hong Kong >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.

Offline MrMann

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Re: MH17 - update ?
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2014, 07:59:38 AM »
A preliminary report is due to be published on the 9th of September apparently.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/04/mh17-crash-investigation-report-preliminary-findings

http://rt.com/news/184592-mh17-preliminary-report-crash/

It should be noted that it was stressed before the investigation began that it was unlikely that the investigators would be able to identify who brought the plane down but that establishing how the plane was brought down was a possibility.


Offline krassavchick

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Re: MH17 - update ?
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2014, 08:00:04 AM »
The American position.

(Attachment Link)

So the question has to be asked; do you believe that Obama, the royal family and the rest of the world's leaders are reptiles?  :chuckle:

Offline Moby

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Re: MH17 - update ?
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2014, 08:03:45 AM »


If you understand Dutch / Russian - you'll now this means 'Forgive us, Netherlands'

Noyaya Gazeta from 25th July - front page



Offline Moby

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Re: MH17 - update ?
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2014, 08:06:45 AM »
A preliminary report is due to be published on the 9th of September apparently.

Thank you, Mr Mann

Offline Net_Lenka

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Re: MH17 - update ?
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2014, 08:21:37 AM »
(Attachment Link)

If you understand Dutch / Russian - you'll now this means 'Forgive us, Netherlands'

Noyaya Gazeta from 25th July - front page
If  dudes from Novaya gazeta personally  short that Boeing then they certainly should beg forgiveness As for the whole Russia outside their newspaper office - then we could offer only condolences and accept "sorry" for that lie spreaded in western mass media during hysteria over that tragedy
- А Вы кто такой будете?
-Тьфу на Вас
-А фамилия Ваша как?  -Тьфу на Вас еще раз .. а фамилия моя слишком известная, чтобы я её называл

Offline Moby

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Re: MH17 - update ?
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2014, 08:30:48 AM »

If  dudes from Novaya gazeta personally  short that Boeing then they certainly should beg forgiveness As for the whole Russia outside their newspaper office - then we could offer only condolences and accept "sorry" for that lie spreaded in western mass media during hysteria over that tragedy


I'm 'sorry'

So were the the first reports from

1/ life news
2/ itar-tass
3/ Vzglyad.ru
4/ belport.by
5/ topwar.ru

and many more


on 17th July spreading lies ?:)))

The separatists did it - admitted it and when they realised they'd f'd up ......

Online AvHdB

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Re: MH17 - update ?
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2014, 06:31:50 PM »
If  dudes from Novaya gazeta personally  short that Boeing then they certainly should beg forgiveness As for the whole Russia outside their newspaper office - then we could offer only condolences and accept "sorry" for that lie spreaded in western mass media during hysteria over that tragedy

Lena, Please stop spreading the BS ~ there is more than enough already present.

Why not have a good O and than a shot of Scotch. Av
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

Online AvHdB

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Re: MH17 - update ?
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2014, 06:37:07 PM »
If  dudes from Novaya gazeta personally  short that Boeing then they certainly should beg forgiveness As for the whole Russia outside their newspaper office - then we could offer only condolences and accept "sorry" for that lie spreaded in western mass media during hysteria over that tragedy

Lena, Please stop spreading the BS ~ there is more than enough already present.

Why not have a good O and than a shot of Scotch. Av

Lena, Please understand my problem is with a Russian regime that disregards agreements and treaties.

The average Russian is a decent folk, ready for a good laugh and decent meal

As for the leadership there treachery is equal to the West's incompetence. Av
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

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Re: MH17 - update ?
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2014, 02:39:14 AM »
I am still not convinced the seperatists did it, because of the lack of evidence that would support the real truth.

Putin/Lavrov have repeatedly asked for (and never gotten) the following "proof" items.

- Transcripts from both the planes black boxes in the UK.
- The communication from Kiev's tower and the plane.
- High-resolution satelite imaging from the USA.
- Explanation of the bullet holes found in the fuselage of the jet by the first man of ovse on the scene only hours after the accident (Before the seperatists started chainsaw actions).

Since the following would be found out:
- Black boxes:
  A sharp drop in altitude minutes/seconds before the hit by the buk-system. That would be consistent with avoiding jet-machineguns.
  Pilot comments about fearing the planes destruction (officially , pilots did not remark anything out of the order according to the news, i find that hard to believe)

- Communication with Kiev's tower:
  Probably the pilots declaring an emergency as they are under enemy plane fire requesting immediate landing.
 
- Satellite imaging from USA:
  This will prove the same as Russia's high-res images. A plane following the jet.

Etc.

Too many questions left unanswered without them there can be no guilt assigned either way.

I will start assigning blame when these proofs have been put in the news. Not before.

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Offline WestCoast

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Re: MH17 - update ?
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2014, 09:26:09 AM »
I am still not convinced the seperatists did it, because of the lack of evidence that would support the real truth.

Putin/Lavrov have repeatedly asked for (and never gotten) the following "proof" items.

- Transcripts from both the planes black boxes in the UK.
- The communication from Kiev's tower and the plane.
- High-resolution satelite imaging from the USA.
- Explanation of the bullet holes found in the fuselage of the jet by the first man of ovse on the scene only hours after the accident (Before the seperatists started chainsaw actions).

Since the following would be found out:
- Black boxes:
  A sharp drop in altitude minutes/seconds before the hit by the buk-system. That would be consistent with avoiding jet-machineguns.
  Pilot comments about fearing the planes destruction (officially , pilots did not remark anything out of the order according to the news, i find that hard to believe)

- Communication with Kiev's tower:
  Probably the pilots declaring an emergency as they are under enemy plane fire requesting immediate landing.
 
- Satellite imaging from USA:
  This will prove the same as Russia's high-res images. A plane following the jet.

Etc.

Too many questions left unanswered without them there can be no guilt assigned either way.

I will start assigning blame when these proofs have been put in the news. Not before.

Mark.

The investigation is still ongoing. As for satellite images where are the satellite images from Russian satellites over the area? Where is the raw radar data from Russian radar for that area? The radar data from Russia must exist. MH17 was very close to the Russia border so Russia radar, either civilian or military must have been tracking it. What hasn't Russia made the raw data publicly available?
andrewfi says ''Proximity is almost no guarantee of authority" and "in many cases, distance gives a better picture with less emotional and subjective input."

That means I'm a subject matter expert on all things Russia, Ukraine and UK.

Offline yankee

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Re: MH17 - update ?
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2014, 09:28:38 AM »
I am still not convinced the seperatists did it, because of the lack of evidence that would support the real truth.

Putin/Lavrov have repeatedly asked for (and never gotten) the following "proof" items.

- Transcripts from both the planes black boxes in the UK.
- The communication from Kiev's tower and the plane.
- High-resolution satelite imaging from the USA.
- Explanation of the bullet holes found in the fuselage of the jet by the first man of ovse on the scene only hours after the accident (Before the seperatists started chainsaw actions).

Since the following would be found out:
- Black boxes:
  A sharp drop in altitude minutes/seconds before the hit by the buk-system. That would be consistent with avoiding jet-machineguns.
  Pilot comments about fearing the planes destruction (officially , pilots did not remark anything out of the order according to the news, i find that hard to believe)

- Communication with Kiev's tower:
  Probably the pilots declaring an emergency as they are under enemy plane fire requesting immediate landing.
 
- Satellite imaging from USA:
  This will prove the same as Russia's high-res images. A plane following the jet.

Etc.

Too many questions left unanswered without them there can be no guilt assigned either way.

I will start assigning blame when these proofs have been put in the news. Not before.

Mark.

The investigation is still ongoing. As for satellite images where are the satellite images from Russian satellites over the area? Where is the raw radar data from Russian radar for that area? The radar data from Russia must exist. MH17 was very close to the Russia border so Russia radar, either civilian or military must have been tracking it. What hasn't Russia made the raw data publicly available?

Really?  You would still deny their truth,
What is worse than not being able to get what you don't even want?

Online andrewfi

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Re: MH17 - update ?
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2014, 09:43:50 AM »
As yet, we do not know the truth. However accurate surmises can be made.

The Russians released data that showed the narrative from 'the west' was untrue. That information has not been objectively challenged by anyone with the resources to do so.

Weeks and weeks ago, when this occurred my surmise was that nobody (read the US) challenged Russia because they could not do so. The safe inference to be drawn was that the scenario was as outlined by Russia and that the US knew about it in advance because they would not have maneuvered a satellite with the specific capability to monitor the event without prior knowledge. The US can not own up to that without making themselves complicit in the shoot down - which, of course, they almost certainly were - hence the satellite! :)

My surmise is that the 'preliminary report' will be inconclusive and will, at the request of the investigating stakeholders, be extensively redacted. Again, this will tell us, by inference from what is missing, what we want to know. In addition as citizens of the world we will know we have been lied to and that hundreds of people were murdered simply to enable a tactical change 33,000 feet below and an attempted PR blow against a purported 'enemy'.
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Re: MH17 - update ?
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2014, 02:34:56 PM »

The investigation is still ongoing. As for satellite images where are the satellite images from Russian satellites over the area? Where is the raw radar data from Russian radar for that area? The radar data from Russia must exist. MH17 was very close to the Russia border so Russia radar, either civilian or military must have been tracking it. What hasn't Russia made the raw data publicly available?

Russia has put their data online. Do your own homework please.

rt.com had the scoop of course, being Putin's sockpuppet:

http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/

2 more questions not answered that I didnt mention before:
- Why was the spanish air-traffic-controller silenced from saying what he overheard concerning MH17
- Why did this man later vanish never to be found again?

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Offline sashathecat

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Re: MH17 - update ?
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2014, 02:52:08 PM »
2 more questions not answered that I didnt mention before:
- Why was the spanish air-traffic-controller silenced from saying what he overheard concerning MH17
- Why did this man later vanish never to be found again?

Because he was imaginary to begin with. On multiple Spanish forums they flushed him out.

Offline Ste

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Re: MH17 - update ?
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2014, 04:49:14 AM »
Odds on it was a BUK or similar then. Forget the silly Ukrainian fighter theories........

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29119024

Question is whose was it?
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Re: MH17 - update ?
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2014, 04:59:59 AM »
The preliminary report has been released:

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/701/b3923acad0ceprem-rapport-mh-17-en-interactief.pdf

Here are some of the key points:

It confirms that the only deviations from the route were due to adverse weather and that the Ukrainian air traffic controllers did not direct the flight into a danger area as claimed in various sources.

It also confirms that the only traffic in the vicinity of MH17 were three other commercial airliners, the closest of which was 30km away.

The black boxes were not tampered with by the separatists.

The wreckage of the plane has still not been recovered by the investigators from the crash site.

"The pattern of damage observed in the forward fuselage and cockpit section of the aircraft was consistent with the damage that would be expected from a large number of high-energy objects that penetrated the aircraft from outside."

"The distribution of pieces of the aircraft over a large area indicates that the aircraft broke up in the air."

"The forward parts of the aircraft were found closest to the last recorded FDR point, indicating that these parts broke off from the aircraft first." (FDR is the Flight Data Recording)

"It is likely that this damage resulted in a loss of structural integrity of the aircraft, leading to an in-flight break up."

Online andrewfi

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Re: MH17 - update ?
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2014, 06:31:20 AM »
So, assuming that what you posted MrMann is representative of the contents of the report we already have a clear difference between the contents of the report and the tracking data from Russian ATC and a difference between the report and the observed meteorological situation.

It is no surprise that the Malaysians are once again taking a keen interest in proceedings.
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Offline MrMann

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Re: MH17 - update ?
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2014, 06:46:18 AM »
As they state in the report they used both data from the Ukrainian ATC and the Russian ATC. The weather reports were from the Royal Netherlands Meteorological Institute and the UK Met Office.

I very much doubt the Malaysians have stopped having an interest in the proceedings at any point.

Offline Manny

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Re: MH17 - update ?
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2014, 12:35:09 PM »
It also confirms that the only traffic in the vicinity of MH17 were three other commercial airliners, the closest of which was 30km away.

Nobody told the locals they were making it up I guess.........


Quote
The BBC pulled this broadcast in total panic when they realised the evidence of the eye witnesses did not correspond to the narrative the US & their NATO allies wanted to convey, many witnesses verified there were 2 Ukraine SU25 very close to the downed MH17, their presence was also confirmed by Russian satellite images provided by their air ministry. The US has thus so far refused to disclose their satellite images

Evidently, the BBC deleted it as it did not meet "editorial guidelines". Truth doesn't when it contradicts the official line. The BBC were caught doing the same in Odessa.
Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<< - Read a trip report from South Korea, China and Hong Kong >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.

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Re: MH17 - update ?
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2014, 12:48:28 PM »
Quote
Ukraine actually shot down MH17 to start WWIII/embarrass Russia – It’s easier for conspiracy theories to gain legitimate acceptance when massive, state-controlled journalism organs dispense them. So the Russian media, along with their Putin-admiring shills in the west, have been loudly proclaiming that Russia is the real victim here, rather than the 298 people (allegedly) murdered by Russian thugs trained and armed by Russians using Russian heavy weapons.

Russia’s “theory”, released on Monday by their Ministry of Defense and dutifully reported by their media stooges, is that a Ukrainian SU-25 close air support plane was taking off at the same time as MH17 was passing over eastern Ukraine. This SU-25 then moved to escort the jetliner and yadda yadda yadda, MH17 exploded. All of this happened with a US spy satellite conveniently flying directly overhead.

Before you think I’m being too glib, please note that the Russian theory was immediately jumped on by numerous experts as being impossible for a very good reason: the SU-25 isn’t an interceptor and has a ceiling of just 23,000 feet – and MH17 was flying at 33,000 feet when it went silent. Also, the Russians aren’t actually saying what happened to MH17, just throwing stuff out there and forcing people to make their own judgments. Maybe this works for tabloid news, but for an act of mass murder, not so much.

Russian accounts have also been caught editing relevant Wikipedia entries, posting false stories in social media and leaving obviously biased comments on legitimate news stories. Approach them all with extreme caution

http://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2014/07/24/myths-lies-and-other-nonsense-about-mh17-conspiracy-roundup/

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Re: MH17 - update ?
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2014, 01:06:22 PM »
It also confirms that the only traffic in the vicinity of MH17 were three other commercial airliners, the closest of which was 30km away.

Nobody told the locals they were making it up I guess.........
The report did not comment on the presence/absense of military aircraft, so this youtube video can still be accurate.

Also, nowhere did the report mention missile, buk-system or otherwise. They intentionally and specificly always said "Multitudes of small objects with a high energy value" , this can come from both a missile system but also strafing bullets from passing military jets.

They also specified that all of the objects came from "above" the aircraft heading down through the aircraft, no damage from the bottom up.
That would mean the buk system overflew the aircraft and exploded above it, which seems unlikely as most missiles I know will explode the second they have confirmed to be close enough to the target objective.
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Re: MH17 - update ?
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2014, 02:16:43 PM »
It also confirms that the only traffic in the vicinity of MH17 were three other commercial airliners, the closest of which was 30km away.

Nobody told the locals they were making it up I guess.........
The report did not comment on the presence/absense of military aircraft, so this youtube video can still be accurate.
The report commented on the presence/absence of all aircraft.

Quote
the SU-25 isn’t an interceptor and has a ceiling of just 23,000 feet – and MH17 was flying at 33,000 feet when it went silent.
The video is not accurate.

Offline TrevorM

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Re: MH17 - update ?
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2014, 04:15:08 PM »
The theory that MH17 was brought down by gunfire from one or more SU-25s is just ludicrous whichever way you look at it, whether it is air combat tactics, performance capabilities of the SU-25, or just basic physics on the relative motion of two moving objects, all coupled with the evidence highlighted in the report.

They also specified that all of the objects came from "above" the aircraft heading down through the aircraft, no damage from the bottom up.
That would mean the buk system overflew the aircraft and exploded above it, which seems unlikely as most missiles I know will explode the second they have confirmed to be close enough to the target objective.

I refer you to retired Russian army Colonel Mikhail Khodarenok as quoted in the Moscow Times:-
Quote
Khodarenok also pointed to the fact that a Buk missile would have hit the aircraft from above, while evidence suggests that it was hit from below. He explained that the missile system operates in such a way where a missile is shot up to great heights, and is designed to hit its target during its descent.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/speculation-runs-rife-following-release-of-mh17-report/506742.html

He does seem to be a little confused as to what the Preliminary Report actually says about the direction of entry of the high speed objects (Him: from below, Report: from above), or is he contesting the interpretation of the photographic evidence in the report? Whatever, he describes the mode of operation of the missile.

As for the BBC video, my wife listened to the two women speaking about the planes:-

As my wife understood it, the women saw two planes (which they said were Ukrainian military aircraft - wifey couldn't translate the type of aircraft) in the area before the crash (they didn't say how long before) and they then speculated that the aircraft could be to blame for the crash. Wifey reported that the women did not say that they saw the aircraft close to MH17. Maybe someone else could provide a verbatim translation?


 

 

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