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Author Topic: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic  (Read 126635 times)

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Offline msmoby

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Poroshenko is in control of Ukraine

 No he isn't ..esp the parts where the Russian army is either openly ( Crimea) or parts of Donbas where they helped out and they won't admit it and you can't ...

The analogy re 'blame' was spot-on.. 

If Porky pig had taken better care for his people (You know, the civilians in Donbass) , they wouldn't have wanted to seperate and all the other stuff goes away. Its not too late to actually start doing that. Poroshenko is also blocking any minsk-agreement and not living up to his side of the resolution whilst Donbass has done their part.

1/ Was Poroshenko leader when Moscow was spreading the seeds of discontent ? ...No ( Remembering it is illegal to do the same in Russia-  but 'ok' to do it in neighbouring nations )

2/ Indeed they are his people - you got THAT part right ..  You would be aware of the make up of the population before and why I certainly don't believe any 'referendum' result from there.  You should check out the peoples' feelings from places that were liberated from the 'separatists' ..Sloviyansk being a good example...

3/ Both Kiev and Moscow are breaking Minsk 2 agreements - don't you read the daily reports from the Observers ?

Beware, some images of dead russian military below.

You post pictures of dead civilians - YES - we know - innocents are losing their lives... for a war they didn't ask for and mostly they don't care who rules them - as long as they can live safely ..

Poroshenko should be removed from office, and sooner rather than later.

Ukraine has a habit of removing unpopular leaders - don't worry ....

Where's the western outcry over this? Oh yeah thats right, we signed an association agreement and visa-free travel.

Probably the biggest FU to Moscow that the EU was capable of .. ? I know the news in Russia is all about how bad things are in Ukraine ..

I would welcome these refugees, as they are REALLY fleeing a war... but they haven't flocked to Europe, they fled to Russia!

Many wise folks got out before the sh!t hit the fan ..settling in Kiev, Odesa, and areas in Donbas where the govt still exercises control .... They weren't welcome and got the hint - such was the bully boy tactics employed ... 'Sorry' to introduce a little reality into your one-sided tale.

I have never claimed to be a Blue Beret

Spurious claims about 'seeing action' with the Blue Berets are debunked >here<

Here is my Russophobia/Kremlinphobia topic

Offline Manny

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Poroshenko is in control of Ukraine

No he isn't ..esp the parts where the Russian army is either openly ( Crimea)

Crimea is Russia. Buy a new atlas.
Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<< - Read a trip report from South Korea, China and Hong Kong >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.

Offline msmoby

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Crimea is Russia. Buy a new atlas.

I'll pop down to Waterstone's to check your advice ;)
I have never claimed to be a Blue Beret

Spurious claims about 'seeing action' with the Blue Berets are debunked >here<

Here is my Russophobia/Kremlinphobia topic


Online Markje

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Quote
Poroshenko is in control of Ukraine

 No he isn't ..esp the parts where the Russian army is either openly ( Crimea) or parts of Donbas where they helped out and they won't admit it and you can't ...

The analogy re 'blame' was spot-on.. 
No it wasn't. And if you fail to see that, there is nothing more to say.

Quote
1/ Was Poroshenko leader when Moscow was spreading the seeds of discontent ? ...No ( Remembering it is illegal to do the same in Russia-  but 'ok' to do it in neighbouring nations )
Who is exactly spreading seeds? I would think that Kiev with its out-of-touch leadership was. Malcontent needs feeding grounds, all Russia could do was encourage what is already there.

Quote
2/ Indeed they are his people - you got THAT part right ..  You would be aware of the make up of the population before and why I certainly don't believe any 'referendum' result from there.  You should check out the peoples' feelings from places that were liberated from the 'separatists' ..Sloviyansk being a good example...

3/ Both Kiev and Moscow are breaking Minsk 2 agreements - don't you read the daily reports from the Observers ?
As moscow has no obligations under Minsk two, other than try to encourage the DPR, thats laughable.

Quote
Beware, some images of dead russian military below.

You post pictures of dead civilians - YES - we know - innocents are losing their lives... for a war they didn't ask for and mostly they don't care who rules them - as long as they can live safely ..
You might want to ask people in Donbass that, they want this situation or theyd have kicked out Zakarchenko long ago.
Quote
Poroshenko should be removed from office, and sooner rather than later.

Ukraine has a habit of removing unpopular leaders - don't worry ....
Yes, the only thing we agree on.
Quote
Where's the western outcry over this? Oh yeah thats right, we signed an association agreement and visa-free travel.

Probably the biggest FU to Moscow that the EU was capable of .. ? I know the news in Russia is all about how bad things are in Ukraine ..
Why would the EU want to send a FU to Moscow over this? Its Kiev thats killing its own civilians.
Ah and how bad things are in Ukraine, one needs only to check the news once a week or so... There is some real economic disaster going on outside the whole Donbass FU.

Quote
Many wise folks got out before the sh!t hit the fan ..settling in Kiev, Odesa, and areas in Donbas where the govt still exercises control .... They weren't welcome and got the hint - such was the bully boy tactics employed ... 'Sorry' to introduce a little reality into your one-sided tale.
Right, where are the numbers? Oh thats right, there aren't any that you believe. Especially not the 1.000.000+ that fled to Russia instead. The ones fleeing towards kiev's regime isn't even half that.
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Offline Tom Cat

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I don't see how Ukraine expects the United states, Canada and others to supply weapons when they can't secure the ones that they already have?

Thousands flee huge 'sabotage' explosion at Ukraine arms depot

https://www.yahoo.com/news/thousands-evacuated-ukraine-arms-depot-sabotage-blasts-094622513.html
Don't shoot the messenger, links to articles posted, don't necessarily reflect my personal opinion.

Offline msmoby

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No it wasn't. And if you fail to see that, there is nothing more to say.

A bit like 'no shots fired' in Crimea ...  you will continue to delude yourself .. but not others

Quote from: moby
1/ Was Poroshenko leader when Moscow was spreading the seeds of discontent ? ...No ( Remembering it is illegal to do the same in Russia-  but 'ok' to do it in neighbouring nations )

Who is exactly spreading seeds? I would think that Kiev with its out-of-touch leadership was. Malcontent needs feeding grounds, all Russia could do was encourage what is already there.

You missed 'anti-maidan' ... ?!     The 'Nazi protesters' - how bizarre .... the fear / uncertainty was being pushed when it was clear the writing was on the wall for Yanu' .....       You DO have a short memory ...    Me posting UN hum rights reports warning of polarisation and risk of civil violence on a massive scale...

 

Quote from: moby
2/ Indeed they are his people - you got THAT part right ..  You would be aware of the make up of the population before and why I certainly don't believe any 'referendum' result from there.  You should check out the peoples' feelings from places that were liberated from the 'separatists' ..Sloviyansk being a good example...

3/ Both Kiev and Moscow are breaking Minsk 2 agreements - don't you read the daily reports from the Observers ?

As moscow has no obligations under Minsk two, other than try to encourage the DPR, thats laughable.

THANKS - for demonstrating your 'knowledge' of Minsk-2..

Meanwhile in the real world military kit - that can only be from Russia - apparently keeps appearing in the field - and the presence is denied by those seen using it. .... What that the sort of encouragement you mean ?

I'm not in favour of the west giving UA legal arms, btw . It will result in an upsurge of casualties and Russia will simply send in more men and kit - like August 2015 and acquire more UA territory.

Beware, some images of dead russian military below.


Quote from: moby
You post pictures of dead civilians - YES - we know - innocents are losing their lives... for a war they didn't ask for and mostly they don't care who rules them - as long as they can live safely ..


Quote from: markje
You might want to ask people in Donbass that, they want this situation or theyd have kicked out Zakarchenko long ago.

YOU need to talk to the some of the people who fled.... to 'rump' Ukraine and even Russia ...  Our region is run by bandits on the behest of 'business-men'...

Poroshenko should be removed from office, and sooner rather than later.

Quote from: moby
Ukraine has a habit of removing unpopular leaders - don't worry ....

Quote from: Markje
Yes, the only thing we agree on.

I've noted quite a few changes in who runs the shows in the 'separatist areas' - why haven't you ?


Where's the western outcry over this? Oh yeah thats right, we signed an association agreement and visa-free travel.

Quote from: Moby
Probably the biggest FU to Moscow that the EU was capable of .. ? I know the news in Russia is all about how bad things are in Ukraine ..

Quote from: Markje
Why would the EU want to send a FU to Moscow over this?

Let's think...?  Constant undermining of the - overall in Ukraine - decision to have closer ties with Europe - whilst - originally - not wishing to lose 'em with Moscow and certainly no dream to join NATO ....     Now the population is polarised with starkly differing expectations and even killing each other...  that's why the next quote of yours is somewhat ironic ...

Quote from: Markje
Its Kiev thats killing its own civilians.

There is no doubt that in fighting the 'separatists' that Kiev is killing innocents - just as the 'separatists' were doing ... So often old folk who just can't move and get caught in the cross-fire .... Let's not do the 'propaganda bollox' ....   Both sides have been criticised -and rightly so.  What is a joke is Moscow talks about the 'killing civilians' and 'right of self-determination ' whilst having done EXACTLY that in a 'part' of Russia that hadn't even agreed to BE part of Russia and bans any media discussion of self-determination - leaving the R.F.   THAT's what is SO galling ....

Yet here you are - blind to the irony ....

Quote from: Markje
Ah and how bad things are in Ukraine, one needs only to check the news once a week or so... There is some real economic disaster going on outside the whole Donbass FU.

Not that you will read the 'games' going on in the 'separatist' controlled parts of Donbas.... 


Quote from: moby
Many wise folks got out before the sh!t hit the fan ..settling in Kiev, Odesa, and areas in Donbas where the govt still exercises control .... They weren't welcome and got the hint - such was the bully boy tactics employed ... 'Sorry' to introduce a little reality into your one-sided tale.

Quote from: Markje
Right, where are the numbers? Oh thats right, there aren't any that you believe. Especially not the 1.000.000+ that fled to Russia instead. The ones fleeing towards kiev's regime isn't even half that.

...How do you know that your 'numbers' are accurate - when there is so much bollox being printed as propaganda by both sides?

FACT: prior to the 2014 violence - what was the ethnic makeup in Donbas - where were there constituencies that were eth Russian in majority ?

Why don't you want to believe the opinions of the democratically elected members of the Party of Regions who objected to the 'separatists' and when stripping down the 'flags' of the 'Donetsk People's Republic' - disappear - to be found murdered ?

I know folks from Donbas and Lugansk .... some fled to Russia - some to other parts of Ukraine - or further afield WAY before this really kicked off  -they saw what was coming

Why did you not quote my asking you about what folks think in 'liberated' parts of Ukraine - run for a time by 'separatists' back under Kiev control ... ?

VERY telling ......


Hint: Sloyiyansk was a key town and if you read some reports Kiev was shelling residents...  when the 'truth' - according to Kiev -  was somewhat different ....  the 'rebels' fired OUT from flats - inviting incoming fire - moving on they fired OUT from Schools and Hospitals ...

On RU tv much was made of the plight of the residents - who are now -seemingly - living quite peaceably - and western journos have free access.


There was no need for this conflict ... it was stirred up by the actions of both East and West - but comments like "The people of Novorossiya have a right to self determination" by a President who partook in the overseeing of the flattening of a city in Russia who sought such freedoms - and bans talk  of such things within Russia ...whilst encouraging the world to look at Kiev's 'wrongs' - don't you see ANY irony ?




 
I have never claimed to be a Blue Beret

Spurious claims about 'seeing action' with the Blue Berets are debunked >here<

Here is my Russophobia/Kremlinphobia topic

Offline Manny

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Crimea is Russia. Buy a new atlas.

I'll pop down to Waterstone's to check your advice ;)

I'd check a Russian one if I were you.
Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<< - Read a trip report from South Korea, China and Hong Kong >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.

Offline msmoby

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I'd check a Russian one if I were you.

Turkey has 'The Republic of Northern Cyprus' on their maps ....   35 years after it was declared into 'existence' ...and ?
I have never claimed to be a Blue Beret

Spurious claims about 'seeing action' with the Blue Berets are debunked >here<

Here is my Russophobia/Kremlinphobia topic

Online Markje

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No it wasn't. And if you fail to see that, there is nothing more to say.

A bit like 'no shots fired' in Crimea ...  you will continue to delude yourself .. but not others
Right, you're deluded so I can't even respond to the rest without a huge caveat emptor, the reply is from deluded you.

On a scale of say, 0 to 20.000 (thats not much) how many casualties were directly related to the Crimean release from Ukraine?
Where 0 = no casualties and 20.000 = 20.000 casualties.
You'd be hard pressed to get to even 1 promille. (20 people). I call such a thing no shots fired, but you seem to want to take all literally when everybody else gets the true meaning of the words.

I chose 20.000 as that would mean 10.000 Russian troops (you said that was the max under Ukraine/Russia's lease agreement) and 10.000 from the other side.


Quote from: moby
You missed 'anti-maidan' ... ?!     The 'Nazi protesters' - how bizarre .... the fear / uncertainty was being pushed when it was clear the writing was on the wall for Yanu' .....       You DO have a short memory ...    Me posting UN hum rights reports warning of polarisation and risk of civil violence on a massive scale...
The nazi's were very real, that you put them inside quotation marks again show how deluded you were. In fact, the whole fascism angle is why Crimea decided to quit Ukraine in the first place. (Before joining Russia on a referendum later)

Quote from: moby
As moscow has no obligations under Minsk two, other than try to encourage the DPR, thats laughable.

THANKS - for demonstrating your 'knowledge' of Minsk-2..
Debated before... Andrew quite nicely nipped these kinds of replies in the butt. You are talking nonsense again.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11408266/Minsk-agreement-on-Ukraine-crisis-text-in-full.html
Kindly point me to where Putin's responsibilities are.
Quote
Meanwhile in the real world military kit - that can only be from Russia - apparently keeps appearing in the field - and the presence is denied by those seen using it. .... What that the sort of encouragement you mean ?
Yet never photographed in this high-camera-presence world.
I got youtube vids and photo's of all asteroids , strange UFO's and other crap in Russia, but not these mysterious forces you keep talking of.
Quote
I'm not in favour of the west giving UA legal arms, btw . It will result in an upsurge of casualties and Russia will simply send in more men and kit - like August 2015 and acquire more UA territory.
No it won't , there will simply be more blown up army bases on the Ukrainian side.


Where's the western outcry over this? Oh yeah thats right, we signed an association agreement and visa-free travel.
No response? typical. You must find it 100% approved that Porky is shooting civilians, not even as collateral damage but straight shooting at civilian buildings with mortars and other heavy weaponry.


Quote from: Moby
Probably the biggest FU to Moscow that the EU was capable of .. ? I know the news in Russia is all about how bad things are in Ukraine ..
Ah yeah that was the reply to above.... sad.

Quote
Quote from: Markje
Why would the EU want to send a FU to Moscow over this?

Let's think...?  Constant undermining of the - overall in Ukraine - decision to have closer ties with Europe - whilst - originally - not wishing to lose 'em with Moscow and certainly no dream to join NATO ....     Now the population is polarised with starkly differing expectations and even killing each other...  that's why the next quote of yours is somewhat ironic ...
Riiiiight. Perhaps I need to quote someone: Please put down the wine and talk some sense. This makes no sense at all. Russia isn't killing any civilians. Nowhere.  And Ukraine is free to do as it wish, but it was always a deeply divided east/west country. They ignored that and guess what happened.

Quote
Quote from: Markje
Its Kiev thats killing its own civilians.

There is no doubt that in fighting the 'separatists' that Kiev is killing innocents - just as the 'separatists' were doing ... So often old folk who just can't move and get caught in the cross-fire .... Let's not do the 'propaganda bollox' ....   Both sides have been criticised -and rightly so.  What is a joke is Moscow talks about the 'killing civilians' and 'right of self-determination ' whilst having done EXACTLY that in a 'part' of Russia that hadn't even agreed to BE part of Russia and bans any media discussion of self-determination - leaving the R.F.   THAT's what is SO galling ....
You call firing mortars into civilian buildings because maybe there are separatists there propaganda? Thanks for showing your true colors.
Quote
Yet here you are - blind to the irony ....
No, i see real human suffering and real dead people. You apparently only see Russian soldiers everywhere.

Quote
Quote from: Markje
Ah and how bad things are in Ukraine, one needs only to check the news once a week or so... There is some real economic disaster going on outside the whole Donbass FU.

Not that you will read the 'games' going on in the 'separatist' controlled parts of Donbas.... 
No need to , they are in the doghouse just like the rest of Ukraine. Why is it suddenly not part of Ukraine? Why on earth do you suddenly switch to it being a separate area?

Quote
...How do you know that your 'numbers' are accurate - when there is so much bollox being printed as propaganda by both sides?
Because the facts line up. Russia's population grew 1million people over night. Where did you think those came from?


Quote
I know folks from Donbas and Lugansk .... some fled to Russia - some to other parts of Ukraine - or further afield WAY before this really kicked off  -they saw what was coming
Right. My uncle's nephew who's friends housekeeper had a son that lived in poland whom had a girlfriend from Ukraine who's grandmama lived in donbass.
Something like that?
I know someone from Donbass too, he's living in Evpatoria, he talked about the organization of fleeing people and how the Russians did it. Counting busses with 50 people, the quota for each city etc. etc. adding up the numbers makes me come to a million.... just like reported in the news.
Quote
Why did you not quote my asking you about what folks think in 'liberated' parts of Ukraine - run for a time by 'separatists' back under Kiev control ... ?

VERY telling ......
Yes, very.... I am not answering any questions that you think are smart but in fact, aren't.


Quote
Hint: Sloyiyansk was a key town and if you read some reports Kiev was shelling residents...  when the 'truth' - according to Kiev -  was somewhat different ....  the 'rebels' fired OUT from flats - inviting incoming fire - moving on they fired OUT from Schools and Hospitals ...

On RU tv much was made of the plight of the residents - who are now -seemingly - living quite peaceably - and western journos have free access.
Ah right.... again those poor people from Kiev, shooting with mortars at buildings because they said someone is shooting from them. No that won't invite any collateral damage at all  :sick0012:
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Offline msmoby

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On a scale of say, 0 to 20.000 (thats not much) how many casualties were directly related to the Crimean release from Ukraine?
Where 0 = no casualties and 20.000 = 20.000 casualties.
You'd be hard pressed to get to even 1 promille. (20 people). I call such a thing no shots fired, but you seem to want to take all literally when everybody else gets the true meaning of the words.

We can't answer you questions - such is the control in Crimea - no UN Human Rights investigators allowed - and I'm not even 'allowed' to point out the existence of the report just being published - on here - 'worrying'...  ( the REAL reason I'm on the 'naughty step' )

I chose 20.000 as that would mean 10.000 Russian troops (you said that was the max under Ukraine/Russia's lease agreement) and 10.000 from the other side.

Such was the surprise - and orders from Kiev - NOT to fire / fire back  - knowing it could never win against the more than 24- 30 k RU personnel present on Crimea at the time of the coup, you mean ?


Quote from: moby
You missed 'anti-maidan' ... ?!     The 'Nazi protesters' - how bizarre .... the fear / uncertainty was being pushed when it was clear the writing was on the wall for Yanu' .....       You DO have a short memory ...    Me posting UN hum rights reports warning of polarisation and risk of civil violence on a massive scale...

The nazi's were very real, that you put them inside quotation marks again show how deluded you were. In fact, the whole fascism angle is why Crimea decided to quit Ukraine in the first place. (Before joining Russia on a referendum later) 

This would be funny - if people didn't die as a result of the polarisation stirred up by Moscow ( UN Human Rights report - Feb 2014)


As moscow has no obligations under Minsk two, other than try to encourage the DPR, thats laughable.

Quote from: moby
THANKS - for demonstrating your 'knowledge' of Minsk-2..

Debated before...

'Debated' ? ..Hmm If only that were true ... you are protected by 'moderation'

Andrew quite nicely nipped these kinds of replies in the butt. You are talking nonsense again.


You mean the guy who wouldn't recognise most of Russia / Ukraine if he were dropped in ?  He also needs protecting by 'moderation' ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11408266/Minsk-agreement-on-Ukraine-crisis-text-in-full.html
Kindly point me to where Putin's responsibilities are.

EASY ... "Restore full control over the state border by Ukrainian government in the whole conflict zone, which has to start on the first day after the local election and end after the full political regulation (local elections in particular districts of Donetsk and Lugansk Oblasts based on the law of Ukraine and Constitutional reform) by the end of 2015, on the condition of fulfilment of Point 11 – in consultations and in agreement with representatives of particular districts of Donetsk and Lugansk Oblasts within the framework of the Trilateral Contact Group."

I told you to read the daily reports from the military observers - who point out the 'help' Russia has been re accessing the 'separatist border ' zones where it is suspected military hardware arrives / departs ...

Quote from: moby
Meanwhile in the real world military kit - that can only be from Russia - apparently keeps appearing in the field - and the presence is denied by those seen using it. .... Whatas that the sort of encouragement you mean ?

Yet never photographed in this high-camera-presence world.
I got youtube vids and photo's of all asteroids , strange UFO's and other crap in Russia, but not these mysterious forces you keep talking of.

Once again - you 'read selectively' ... When thy are published - you'll claim 'photoshopped' or some other 'excuse' .. Russian social media sites kindly produced the sort of images you seek to deny ... those living on the Russian side took photos  / videos of hardware heading towards the 'new front' in Mariupol - which could - by the very nature of territory held - have arrived in August 2015 from Russia.....  The same hardware was videoed in Ukraine ..In this day and age - it's hard to cover up such movements.

Quote from: moby
I'm not in favour of the west giving UA legal arms, btw . It will result in an upsurge of casualties and Russia will simply send in more men and kit - like August 2015 and acquire more UA territory.

No it won't , there will simply be more blown up army bases on the Ukrainian side.

Really daft response - more people would die on both sides - they're still dying


Where's the western outcry over this? Oh yeah thats right, we signed an association agreement and visa-free travel.
No response? typical. You must find it 100% approved that Porky is shooting civilians, not even as collateral damage but straight shooting at civilian buildings with mortars and other heavy weaponry.


Quote from: Moby
Probably the biggest FU to Moscow that the EU was capable of .. ? I know the news in Russia is all about how bad things are in Ukraine ..
Ah yeah that was the reply to above.... sad.

? You know I responded - appropriately re civilian casualties - on both sides


Quote from: Markje
Why would the EU want to send a FU to Moscow over this?

Quote from: moby


Let's think...?  Constant undermining of the - overall in Ukraine - decision to have closer ties with Europe - whilst - originally - not wishing to lose 'em with Moscow and certainly no dream to join NATO ....     Now the population is polarised with starkly differing expectations and even killing each other...  that's why the next quote of yours is somewhat ironic ...

Riiiiight. Perhaps I need to quote someone: Please put down the wine

Don't do an andrewfi when you can't offer up a factual response ... I haven't drunk wine for 10 days, had one pint of beer in same time ... no spirits, no substances ....

This makes no sense at all. Russia isn't killing any civilians. Nowhere.  And Ukraine is free to do as it wish, but it was always a deeply divided east/west country. They ignored that and guess what happened.

It's been killing in Ukraine and Syria ....  Russian troops' on leave' who just happen to die and get buried and Mammas wondering how they ended up in Ukraine ?   

Quote from: Markje
Its Kiev thats killing its own civilians.

Quote from: moby
There is no doubt that in fighting the 'separatists' that Kiev is killing innocents - just as the 'separatists' were doing ... So often old folk who just can't move and get caught in the cross-fire .... Let's not do the 'propaganda bollox' ....   Both sides have been criticised -and rightly so.  What is a joke is Moscow talks about the 'killing civilians' and 'right of self-determination ' whilst having done EXACTLY that in a 'part' of Russia that hadn't even agreed to BE part of Russia and bans any media discussion of self-determination - leaving the R.F.   THAT's what is SO galling ....

You call firing mortars into civilian buildings because maybe there are separatists there propaganda? Thanks for showing your true colors.

Like in Sloviyansk - were it transpired the civilians were moved out, first?  - it was a show... you bought it ..  My 'true colours' are horror of war in general and particularly when both or either side pretends only the 'other side' kills civilians ...

It is noted you failed to deal with the double standards of how Russia dealt with separatists....

Hence
Quote from: moby
Yet here you are - blind to the irony ....

Was bang on ..

No, i see real human suffering and real dead people. You apparently only see Russian soldiers everywhere.

I said Russian military helped out - esp in Aug / Sept 2015 - when Kiev had just about surrounded Donetsk and Lugansk - and GRU troops set off the insurrection in E.Ukraine and Crimea..  I'm sure very few trained soldiers want to or would kill civilians -


Quote from: Markje
Ah and how bad things are in Ukraine, one needs only to check the news once a week or so... There is some real economic disaster going on outside the whole Donbass FU.

Quote from: moby
Not that you will read the 'games' going on in the 'separatist' controlled parts of Donbas.... 

No need to , they are in the doghouse just like the rest of Ukraine. Why is it suddenly not part of Ukraine? Why on earth do you suddenly switch to it being a separate area?


??  Donbas is an oblast of Ukraine ... you're doing it, again ... I said 'separatist' controlled... Why deflect from the question - there is much corruption and 'nationalising' of assets of Oligarchs that is hardly 'political' ... more like old scores / rivalries being settled ....

Quote from: moby
...How do you know that your 'numbers' are accurate - when there is so much bollox being printed as propaganda by both sides?

Because the facts line up. Russia's population grew 1million people over night. Where did you think those came from?


May be Euronews is misquoting UN estimates ? As I said - MANY people left Donbas when there were violent marches / demonstrations and intimidation - this was from April 2015 - Probably more headed to Russia in the next 3 months when Kiev was 'winning'

http://www.euronews.com/2015/04/22/ukraine-crisis-has-created-more-than-2-million-refugees-un-reports



Quote from: moby
I know folks from Donbas and Lugansk .... some fled to Russia - some to other parts of Ukraine - or further afield WAY before this really kicked off  -they saw what was coming

Right. My uncle's nephew who's friends housekeeper had a son that lived in poland whom had a girlfriend from Ukraine who's grandmama lived in donbass.
Something like that?

Much more precise ...  Remember, I have been there.. dated .. watched footies .. got to know folks ... their teenage kids who might have gone to Crimea, Russia or Odesa / Kiev - real people who are still my friends on RU social media sites or FB .. Those that stayed regaled the shelling - and intimidation. 'Fear of Nazis' ... same bollox as Crimea - Two of the families moved to Sochi - Mum being a doctor - she didn't want to go back to quote, "corrupt people running my city into the ground- I trust no-one" ...

I know someone from Donbass too, he's living in Evpatoria, he talked about the organization of fleeing people and how the Russians did it. Counting busses with 50 people, the quota for each city etc. etc. adding up the numbers makes me come to a million.... just like reported in the news.

'Sorry', but how can we trust 'info' when the UN / observers can't verify ?
Quote from: moby

Why did you not quote my asking you about what folks think in 'liberated' parts of Ukraine - run for a time by 'separatists' back under Kiev control ... ?

VERY telling ......

Yes, very.... I am not answering any questions that you think are smart but in fact, aren't.

Look, Markje - journos from all over the world have unfettered access to Sloviyansk .....  you are like a child - putting your fingers in your ears when you don't want to hear - what doesn't suit ....  Newsflash - unlike you - I realise that there is no right and wrong ( black or white) good or bad guys ... Some folks in Sloviyansk saw your 'good guys' take folks down into cellars and following 'interrogation' were never seen again ...  I certainly didn't believe Nadia Savchenko disguised herself and headed east - into Russia - when her helicopter was shot down - nor would I want to share a beer with someone feeling the need to join the 'Azov Battalion' ... I go to Russia - proper - Russian people aren't 'bad' ..... War makes kind people do crazy things...


Quote from: moby
Hint: Sloyiyansk was a key town and if you read some reports Kiev was shelling residents...  when the 'truth' - according to Kiev -  was somewhat different ....  the 'rebels' fired OUT from flats - inviting incoming fire - moving on they fired OUT from Schools and Hospitals ...

On RU tv much was made of the plight of the residents - who are now -seemingly - living quite peaceably - and western journos have free access.

Ah right.... again those poor people from Kiev, shooting with mortars at buildings because they said someone is shooting from them. No that won't invite any collateral damage at all  :sick0012:

Hardly, the 'separatists' moved the civilians out - before firing out .... Most of 'em didn't seek to kill civilians, either...    I believe that ...   Firing motors or rockets near or in towns / cities / villages was done by both 'sides'.


I have never claimed to be a Blue Beret

Spurious claims about 'seeing action' with the Blue Berets are debunked >here<

Here is my Russophobia/Kremlinphobia topic

Offline TomT

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http://nationalinterest.org/feature/2019-could-be-very-bad-year-ukraine-22567

At least in the short term, it costs less to steal natural gas than to buy it. It amazes me that Russia continues to give Ukraine this opportunity; it amazes me more that other gas suppliers think that they will actually get paid; it amazes me most of all that thieves believe that their thievery can continue forever.

Offline Tom Cat

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http://nationalinterest.org/feature/2019-could-be-very-bad-year-ukraine-22567

At least in the short term, it costs less to steal natural gas than to buy it. It amazes me that Russia continues to give Ukraine this opportunity; it amazes me more that other gas suppliers think that they will actually get paid; it amazes me most of all that thieves believe that their thievery can continue forever.



 As you know already, Ukraine is steeped in thievery and corruption so why not believe it can continue forever?
I just finished reading an article about hackers that had taken over 100 million dollars. German and American authorities spent a few years investigating, with Ukrainian police busted the hackers, only to have the Ukrainian in charge free the suspected leader the next day.
Of course his whereabouts are unknown.
If you have enough money you can buy your way out of most anything in Ukraine.
Don't shoot the messenger, links to articles posted, don't necessarily reflect my personal opinion.

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An uninformed opponent is a dangerous opponent.

"Y'all be makin shit up" ~ Markeith Loyd

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20,000 Nazis March in Kiev. The Western Media Somehow Fails to Notice

http://russia-insider.com/en/20000-nazis-march-kiev-western-media-somehow-fails-notice/ri21294

Try like perhaps, maybe 2,000.

A few streets are closed off and there are police, more than normal in the area. Seeing that different interests protest on an almost daily basis in an around the Rada and Government buildings one can guess what is the agenda of the Russian Insider.  :pointlaugh:
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

Offline Tom Cat

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20,000 Nazis March in Kiev. The Western Media Somehow Fails to Notice

http://russia-insider.com/en/20000-nazis-march-kiev-western-media-somehow-fails-notice/ri21294

Try like perhaps, maybe 2,000.

A few streets are closed off and there are police, more than normal in the area. Seeing that different interests protest on an almost daily basis in an around the Rada and Government buildings one can guess what is the agenda of the Russian Insider.  :pointlaugh:



Watched a couple videos and I do doubt twenty thousand, but looked to be bit more than you suggest.
Protests like this would definitely be blamed on Trump if it took place in the United states.
Don't shoot the messenger, links to articles posted, don't necessarily reflect my personal opinion.

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20,000 Nazis March in Kiev. The Western Media Somehow Fails to Notice

http://russia-insider.com/en/20000-nazis-march-kiev-western-media-somehow-fails-notice/ri21294

Try like perhaps, maybe 2,000.

A few streets are closed off and there are police, more than normal in the area. Seeing that different interests protest on an almost daily basis in an around the Rada and Government buildings one can guess what is the agenda of the Russian Insider.  :pointlaugh:

Watched a couple videos and I do doubt twenty thousand, but looked to be bit more than you suggest.
Protests like this would definitely be blamed on Trump if it took place in the United states.

Today, Saturday, went for a walk and we ended up at the Mariinsky Park, which is anchoured at one end by the Rada. It was almost surreal or dystopian, babushka's with there little dogs, Right Sector militia, and kids using Segway's. Opposite the Rada is a portion fenced off, occupied by those of the a Ukrainian Nationalist tint. Both ends are open and people make there way way through, lovers, and platoon's of Ukraine military, along with those hurrying some where else. Outside well organized are portable latrines, out would step a policeman in riot gear and than next to him would come some para military pimple faced kid from the Right Sector. You could see some one with an affiliation to Ukrainian nationalism, discussing matters with an Orthodox Father. Vendors were selling trinkets and there flowers and Ukraine flags for sale as well. Plus the snails (mobile coffee kiosks) selling espresso.

The fences were well guarded by the military posted every ten meters, but they were back to the fence. Some took foto's others went about there business. It seems there is no interest for the far right. For every Nationalist there were ten policeman and military milling about. Further away the police were controlling trucks before allowing them to get closer, which seems like an intelligent precaution.

It certainly is not a tense situation. In fact it was more Kafkaesque than anything sinister. 
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

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Poroshenko Vows Push To Create Anticorruption Court By Year's End
https://www.rferl.org/a/poroshenko-vows-push-create-anticorruption-court-by-yearend/28807413.html

I wonder what he is smokin?

Currently M. Martynenko an ex-lawmaker is under investigation for embezelling to the tune of 17 million. Presently two of the top of Ukraine's Defense Ministry are accused of corruption a mere 5.5 million. Presently a law is working its way through the Rada that will not prosecute the noted plus many others who are corrupt.

On another front it seems the water of the entire city of Kiev will be turned off (I doubt that will happen) but the water company has not paid the electric bill and diverted those funds too . . .

Yes there are numerous calls for reform, but the status qua of fraud, bribery and corruption is so deeply inbeded in society that I do not see a near term solution.
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

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U.S. Urges Russia To Free Jailed Ukrainian Pilot

Washington has called on Russia to immediately release Nadiya Savchenko, the Ukrainian pilot who was captured in eastern Ukraine and later handed over to Russia, where she is charged with killing two Russian journalists.
In a statement on October 29, Ban said the November 2 ballots in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions would breach the Ukrainian Constitution and national law.

read all about it here
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-russia-us-savchenko/26664997.html

Anyone care to guess where this woman is now?   :coffeeread:

http://russiafeed.com/from-russian-prison-to-ukrainian-jail-hero-of-ukraine-nadia-savchenko-arrested/
Quote
It’s out of the fire and into the frying pan for so-called Ukrainian ‘Joan of Arc’ Nadia Savchenko, who has just now been arrested by Ukraine, for allegedly planning a terrorist attack inside the parliament of which she is a member.

Heeheehee
OO===[][]===OO
My first trip to my wife: To Evpatoria!
My road trip to Crimea: Roadtrip to Evpatoria

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Evidently, late last month, and into October there have been meetings between Russian and Ukraine officials as well as both V. Zelensky and V. Putin. It seems while the Minsk agreement is not the absolute framework it is providing for some sort of map for a resolution. My guess other factors such as the upcoming presidential election in the US and perhaps Russian internal dynamics are influencing this movement.

There have been so many false starts and hopes raised that I am now of the opinion time will tell. The actual 'cease fire' violations seems recently to be low.
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

Offline Contrarian

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Over the weekend elections for local officials and it seems some of the seats in the Rada were held. It seems turnout was low (I guess average). But part of the process were questions from (and paid by) Servant of the People party. The text is below.

Citizens were asked to answer the following five questions:

- Do you support the idea of life imprisonment for corruption on a particularly large scale?

- Do you support the creation of a free economic zone in Donetsk and Lugansk regions?

- Do you support a reduction in the number of Members of Parliament to 300?

- Do you support the legalization of marijuana for medical use, i.e. to reduce pain in critically ill patients?

- Do you support Ukraine's right to use the security guarantees stipulated in the Budapest Memorandum to restore its state sovereignty and territorial integrity?

From UNIAN: https://www.unian.info/society/osce-odihr-says-zelensky-s-poll-on-election-day-creates-undue-political-advantage-11195780.html

The questions give some indication of the thinking of President V Zelensky and perhaps by inference the direction he wants the country to move towards.

Compared to elections in Belarus it is refreshing.


Are you in Ukraine now?

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Are you in Ukraine now?

No, planning in December.
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

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I'm not too worried about Putin because we got our own problems at home but Putin accuses Ukraine of provocations in Ukraine. Sounds like a good reason to invade. Merkel doesn't think this mass mobilization is going to be a training exercise.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-says-could-forced-protect-122250495.html

It appears Russia might be thinking of making east Ukraine part of Russia.  It has more to do with he needs some fake excuse to invade the Ukraine. What does a country do with outdated fifty year old military equipment to stop an Russian invasion? How does such a country cause Russia any problems. It does not.  He needs to do something with Donbas as almost no one lives there any more except a few old people. Over the next ten years they will die off and its population will collapse. If he makes Donbas part of Russia maybe someone will want to live there.

BUMP

The above is from another thread.

There seems to be a fair amount a saber rattling on both sides, but without doubt Russia has increased there military presence along the border.

Ukraine is moving slowly but surely towards NATO membership.

There is on the other front across Europe a capture and than expulsion of spies from Russia. Russia than kicks out 'diplomats' for attending a rally in support of A. Navalny.

In the end the control of the Donbass is becoming a nightmare for the end user.

And so the Great Game goes on.
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

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Russia and China wants more real estate. The question is when is the best time to get this real estate and it's best they do it at the same time. Both Russia and China has bribed Biden and family and have compromising video and photo evidence of their crimes. They expect Biden to be soft against anything they do.
Not entirely sure why posting in the relevant thread is such a challenge for some.

There is a serious build up of Russian military personal on the Ukrainian border. I still have a hard time seeing Putin launching a full scale invasion or even incursion into Ukraine. It seems the majority of Europe is fully behind at least with lip service Ukraine. Further the general Ukraine population is even more so today anti-Russian.

Putin has lost the ideological and emotional war for the Ukraine soul. Hopefully Russia has not forgotten the lessons of Afghanistan and I doubt they want the same scenario played out directly on there border.

The so-called Donbass is going to be a mega sink hole for the eventual party who gains control of the region.

 
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

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Not entirely sure where to post this, but this is as good as any thread.

A day ago Ukrainian President V. Zelensky was asked by a journalist if he thought V. Putin was a killer?

He replied "A hundred people may be killed in Donbas tomorrow because of your question. What would you do?... Goodbye."

For a former comedian he shows remarkable common sense as opposed to say the President of The United States.
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

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Cuffi..... I am surprised!

Obviously you wake up from a bad dream when you come to realise the actual international state of affairs....maybe by reading again the comments of Paul Craig Roberts!

Those Neoliberal fascists who are running your country.....do not understand that the Russians will have to protect their country again........from aggressive threatening Enemies. and of course have every right to do so........and I wonder, what are the benefits for USA and their NATO allies to fight Russia under any circumstances?

Wizz what are you bloody banging on about "Neoliberal fascists who are running your country" - Who the bloody phooking 'ell do you think is running YOUR lovely spots of the Earth both UK and EU/Greek?   The City of London Rothschild's of course - the Ultimate Zionists.

Rather than hurl Molotov cocktails at the USA Maidan style - research the City of London, the Rothschild's relationship to JP Morgan's London Bond dealing father - the folks who actually engineered the Fed in 1913 as part of their ongoing Zionist plot to rule the world by Subduing all the planet's Central Bank's including that of the last free people on the planet - the Moscow Rossiya and their independent Russian Banks and Central Bank not owned Fed style by the CoL Rothschilds.

I can understand adopting a UK British Air of Superiority Lord Afi of Tallinn style - it's just the British way -  - it is the blatant intentional boat job ignorance to the real TRUTH that I abhor.

Dear Cufflinks......Finally you are admiting what I have been saying for years.... on this board and elsewhere regarding your Hegemon Empire and also the rest of the world.........including not only UK and my birth country Greece  but also your own Country and every other country were they have control of it's central BanK.

Every time I have made a comment about the Zionists or Rothschilds and their hold on your FED and in general the international Banking System, I have been accused of Anti-Semitism... standard practice of the Jews to cover their bad behaviour, lies and  other unsavoury  actions!

For your information I have been reading most of the articles posted by Paul-Craig-Roberts over the years and I like his calm and intelligent comments and analysis......of world affairs.

Now with his last post he spot on in understanding what is in danger wand who is the culprit of bad behaviour!.

All world wars have  started and fought in Europe and not in American soil.....
After the second world war US took advantage of its size and position to improve
its industrial and other parts of your economy to become the Leader of the world after the WWII finished.

Now the new Russia is not going to let you walk over it as when Yeltsin was in power.......so it's better to listen to sensible people like Paul-Craig-Roberts!

Nobody sensible believes your leader's propaganda about Russia and Ukraine.

ila_rendered

Have a nice day!

Why the sun does not shine on the Ex- British Empire Anymore? Because God never trusted an Englishman in the dark!