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Author Topic: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic  (Read 41591 times)

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Offline Moby

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I'm sure you'll agree, in the interests of total transparency the identity of the individual(s) being interviewed and the owners of the media should be revealed as much as possible.   

For example in Manny's example it's obvious that Sergei Lavrov is the Russian foreign minister. He's identified as such in the article. What readers might not realize is that RBTH - Russia Beyond The Headlines - is a Russian government owned and operated media outlet. In Manny's example a Russian government owned and operated media outlet is interviewing a Russian government official.

Even Manny agrees that most if not all government officials, no matter the country, are corrupt and/or incompetent. The same can be said for government owned and operated enterprises. This is why total transparency is necessary.

Without total transparency readers might think they're reading news when in fact all they're reading is government propaganda.

Difference is that in Russia most of the most viewed TV stations are majority owned by / controlled by The Kremlin, companies controlled by the Kremlin - GAZPROM control NTV or crony Oligarch mates of Putin

Censorship is illegal under the RF constitution but the media regulator is doing a grand job of controlling


Offline Mikeav8r

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This wont be popular with some here: http://dearputin.com/

Discussion on this topic please.

It would appear Putin and Obama went to the same school of politics and propaganda but Putin actually paid attention in class and is far better at it.  That statement is almost laughable, even to a deaf mute but since he is so good at it, more than 75% of his fellow Soviet followers will buy into it.  You will see what I mean shortly.

Edit:  Your last post just disappeared so my above statement makes little sense...may as well move it where your post moved to or delete it as well....
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1.  You have 2 ears and 1 mouth, therefor you should listen twice as much as you speak. -Confucius
2.  If you want to give God a good laugh, tell him your plans. - Anon

Offline Halo

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgq8KvJ77l0#t=135

Should I counter with Alexander Dugin's facebook page? -

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Ukraine must be cleansed of idiots, which points to one solution: the genocide of cretins – malicious, deaf to the voice of Logos, deadly dangerous and on top of that immeasurably stupid.

Don't assume you, as Russians, are any better than what you profess to despise.  Both sides of this conflict evidence nationalism at its worst.


Offline Manny

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Most Europeans in poll think Ukraine should be offered EU membership.

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A majority of Europeans think Ukraine should be offered membership of the European Union but they are divided about whether it should be admitted to NATO, according to a major public opinion survey published on Wednesday.

http://news.yahoo.com/most-europeans-poll-think-eu-offer-ukraine-membership-183628706.html

If true, I think that shows us most "Europeans" have no clue what the real cost of admitting Ukraine would be.

Admitting the Baltics, Romania and Bulgaria cost a lot and put taxes up.

The UK pays £53m ($85M) a DAY to the EU. And we get very little back in return, hence the big movement for a referendum to leave. That money would be better spent on hospitals and schools in the UK, not in Slovakia or Poland.

Why it constantly needs to expand and suck up other countries is a mystery to me.

The EU is - in reality - about six proper countries with twenty odd lame ducks tagged on sapping the wealth. Not to mention a HUGE unelected bureaucracy all on lavish expenses. Its overdue for radical change. The wealth from the prosperous nations should not be spread amongst the poor ones. The poor ones need to simply work harder, have fewer siestas, and quit hoping someone else will solve their problems.

Norway and Switzerland have it right by staying out. We should join them.

Offline WestCoast

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The “we must stand up to Putin as we did to Hitler” line is pure schoolboy politics. Putin, of whom I saw a fair amount as UK ambassador to Moscow, is not an ideologically driven fanatic, but much closer to Talleyrand – the calculating, pragmatic rebuilder of his country’s status in the world. Certainly the seizure of Crimea was illegal and destabilising. But it was a panicky response to a unique set of circumstances, not the start of an attempt to rebuild the USSR. Of course we are right to reassure those who feel most threatened – as Nato has done with its decision to create a “spearhead force”. We are right to condemn the destruction of MH17, which a report confirmed yesterday was almost certainly shot down. But the idea that sabre-rattling is necessary to convince Russia of Nato’s seriousness is ridiculous. If the Russians didn’t take the Nato security guarantee seriously, why would they be so worried about Ukraine joining?

The second false premise is that economic sanctions can stop Russia. We have deployed sanctions six times against Russia since the Second World War; they have never worked, and won’t this time. There was an air of desperation around claims at last weekend’s Nato summit in Newport that sanctions pushed Russia into the current ceasefire. In reality the US, UK and Ukraine resisted a ceasefire that left Russia in command of the field in East Ukraine. Ukraine only moved to accept the ceasefire because it suddenly started losing the war.

It’s time to back away from the Russian wolf

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Discussion is here

Tony Brenton says Ukraine must remain neutral, not by their own choice, they've asked for EU and NATO membership, but because Russia says they must remain neutral. If the west allows this the west is saying Ukraine is a possession of Russia, like Chechnya or Komi or Tuva. Should we also kick Ukraine out of the UN and other international organizations that Russia is currently a member of? Tuva can't be a member of the UN, should Ukraine be a member?

Brenton makes a mistake when he says "We do deals with China, with Iran, with North Korea." What he doesn't say is that NK knows if it crosses the DMZ the US and other western countries will defend South Korea. China knows if it attacks Taiwan the US will defend Taiwan. Iran knows if it attacks Saudi Arabia the US and other western countries will defend SA and attack Iran.

Brenton also says something revealing. He says "Negotiating an acceptable level of autonomy for East Ukraine will be much harder. The Russians are in possession, and will not let go until their concerns are met." He says Russia is in possession of parts of eastern Ukraine. That means they're in Ukraine. They're fighting against the Ukrainian military on Ukrainian soil. They've invaded Ukraine. Broken international agreements. Why should the west trust Russia's word on other peace treaties?

Interesting article. Full of holes. Thought a professional diplomat, knighted for his service to Queen and country, would have done a better job.
Ipsa scientia potestas est. Knowledge itself is power.   Sir Francis Bacon

Offline Donhollio

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Ukraine, Russia and the EU should of been dealing with this, US involvement wasn't needed.

 I totally agree, so where is the EU with a plan?  What will the UK do besides give big words with little effect. For all the Obama bashing that goes on, he is at least doing something. Christ even Canada has sent some jets. Germany hopefully is rethinking its nuclear energy program in light of Putler's quest to establish the new CCCP.
 Western Europe is doing exactly what they did back in the 1930's, give strong words, sit back and let the situation grow to the breaking point. They have displayed weakness to the 10th power, and Putin knows just as Hitler did, that nothing will happen.

Offline Manny

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Interesting article. Full of holes. Thought a professional diplomat, knighted for his service to Queen and country, would have done a better job.

Maybe you will contact him and tell him that despite his vast personal experience, he knows nothing and you and Google can do better?

Offline WestCoast

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Manny the article by Igor Ivanovich Strelkov is an interesting read and IMHO strengthens the case that Russia is behind the pro-Russian separatists. Strelkov is a Russian citizen, a Russian nationalist and a former high ranking (colonel) member of the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB). He has extensive experience in military intelligence and according to many other sources did Russia's dirty work in several areas in Russia and in neighbouring countries.

Strelkov is not a ethnic Russia who just happened to be in Ukraine when the USSR dissolved. Read about his background and it's obvious he's serving Putin and the Kremlin. There can be no other conclusion once you read about his past.

As for some of his other comments. He says "we will not allow for Russia to be ripped asunder and ruined again and again in the manner in which the Russian Empire was destroyed in 1917, and USSR – in 1991". Ukraine is not part of Russia. Neither Putin nor Strelkov get to decide what happens to Ukraine. That right belongs to Ukrainians. 

Not only does Strelkov mention the breakup of the USSR but he also mentions 1917 which would include the old USSR territories plus Finland and other bits of the current EU. If Strelkov is in any manner speaking for the Kremlin then surely this is a warning to the EU and other countries that Russia wants its former empire back.

Novorossiya figures prominently in Strelkov's comments which would mean Putin and his pro-Russian separatists want far more territory than they now control. All in all I'd say Strelkov's comments reflect much of what the west has gleaned Putin's ambitions to be. Putin wants to rebuild Russia not just lands of USSR but the lands of the Russian Empires prior to 1917. Which would include parts of countries now in the EU and NATO. The EU and NATO have every right to be worried.   

http://slavyangrad.org/2014/09/12/we-will-not-allow-for-russia-to-be-ripped-asunder-and-ruined/
Ipsa scientia potestas est. Knowledge itself is power.   Sir Francis Bacon

Offline TomT

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If Strelkov is in any manner speaking for the Kremlin then surely this is a warning to the EU and other countries that Russia wants its former empire back.

No, it isn't a warning that Russia wants its former empire back. Read his friggin' words again... ten times if that's what it takes for them to sink in.
"Get away from the keyboard little man. I know where you live." (Message left in my facebook mailbox by our resident psychopath.)

Offline mendeleyev

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Quote
However, dawn of the Russian Spring broke on the horizon; and our country started – not in words, but in reality – to rise from its knees. But as soon as Russia attempted to rethink the results of Gorbachev’s capitulation and to regain the rights and the territories that belonged to it from ancient times – to achieve real independence – the Fifth Column mobilized all the forces available to it. The return of Crimea to Russia shocked it, and the uprising in Novorossiya caused true panic, and forced it to manifest once again its true face.

At least Strelkov lays out his intentions (see bolded), unlike some of his comrades.

He has since declared that he will stay in Moscow to "protect Putin from the Fifth Column." You don't say that unless you've been cleared to say as much. The fifth column is a term that Putin has resurrected from the Red Terror period, and those in the fifth column are any who oppose the government, non-compliant members of the media, foreigners living in Russia, etc.

In reality, he is a murdering piece of slime who in in desperate need of a history lesson. If he wants to return areas to their "ancient times" owners, in his words, then he better start parceling pieces of Russia back to Greece, Japan, China, what is modern-day Turkey, the Tatars, etc.

Offline TomT

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A lot of people need a history lesson. Modern history begins circa 1500, at which time the Grand Dutchy of Muscovy was emerging from the Tartar yoke. Strelkov refers to ancient times which would predate even Kievan Rus' and the East Slavs. It's clear that his comments were just rhetoric because no reasonable person would believe that he wants Russia's borders to consist of the confines of an ancient cave somewhere in Eastern Europe. People, especially Westy, tend to seize upon rhetoric when it supports their views, irrespective of its irrelevancy.

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Offline mendeleyev

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Regardless of any attempts to define what he may have meant, his comments are very much in line with his actions. No one has challenged Russia's right to Novgorod or Moscow.

Offline Manny

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No one has challenged Russia's right to Novgorod or Moscow.

Yet. Another attempted colour revolution will come soon enough. Putin's recent comments shows he sees that too. He isn't dumb. The American foreign policy dream is for Putin to be overthrown, probably killed like Gaddafi and Hussein, and Russia dismantled and looted.

Neither Putin nor Strelkov get to decide what happens to Ukraine. That right belongs to Ukrainians. 

Had America not intervened (or been invited), I would agree with you. But they did. They funded and orchestrated a coup. This is now an America -v- Russia issue. Ukraine is simply the chess board.

America - with EU support - chose the playing field. Ukrainian people are victims of unwanted foreign intervention. And I don't mean Russia.


Offline Halo

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Russia's borders, its economy, its politicians, its people were not affected in the least by events in Kyiv or elsewhere in Ukraine.  So, your assertion that the US or the EU "started something", which, incidentally, I reject, is deflection.

Odd, was it not, that Kharkiv pro Russian activists, were active within days of Yanukovych stepping down from power?  Odder still, is it not, that they openly admitted to having been trained in Russia, by the Russian government, and to being paid $40 to agitate?

Online d672

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Yet. Another attempted colour revolution will come soon enough. Putin's recent comments shows he sees that too. He isn't dumb. The American foreign policy dream is for Putin to be overthrown, probably killed like Gaddafi and Hussein, and Russia dismantled and looted.


 Makes perfect sense! America is on the verge of financial collapse and they are going after Russia who has had over 20 years to recover and become a world power again.... instead of doing it in the 90's when Russia was on it's knees and the American economy was booming. Is this what you are trying to tell us?   :chuckle:

 C'mon Manny, America had plenty of opportunity to loot Russia when they were weak, it makes absolutely no sense to go after them now. You poor innocent victim Mr Putin is just doing what he is best at... deflecting people's attention so he can take what he wants from Ukraine. Pity so many people fall for it!