Westcoast: Nobody immigrates to the FSU from the west.

[WestCoast]

The great thing about living in the western world is the ability to move. If you prefer the lifestyle of eastern Europe move there, problem solved.

Nobody immigrates to the FSU from the west.

[Manny]

Nobody immigrates to the FSU from the West.

That isn't quite true is it?

DBNeeley was an American who ended his days living in Ukraine.

Danchik is an American who lives in Russia.

Andrewfi is a Brit who lives in Estonia.

I know several Brits, Finns, and others who live in Estonia too. A pal of mine upped sticks and is now doing very well in Bulgaria.

And that's only a few off the top of my head from here. Head on over to some of the expat forums and they are heaving with Westerners who live in Moscow.

Also, several from here maintain second homes there (not wife's old apartment - places they bought or built since). Some plan to retire or semi-retire there.

As I have said before: Less Googling, more travelling. 

[Halo]

David Neeley, God rest his soul, once posted that if he had a larger retirement income, he would not be living in Ukraine.  He also stated his wife would have to retrain, but that seemed to be a secondary consideration to the financial one.

[Manny]

David Neeley, God rest his soul, once posted that if he had a larger retirement income, he would not be living in Ukraine.  He also stated his wife would have to retrain, but that seemed to be a secondary consideration to the financial one.

He may not have been a success story in the way we might have hoped, but to counter Westy's patently untrue statement that "nobody immigrates to the FSU from the west" he was a suitable example; being one of many who did.

There was also that myheart2ukraine clown that was an ex British soldier who went to live in Rivne. There are many who *choose* to live in the FSU was my point. I recall another British chap here (I forget his handle) who posts now and again, who was on a farm in Poland with his wife, but they since moved to Moscow. CC3 I read is also now living in Ukraine with his woman.

Point being, Westy was demonstrably wrong.

[Halo]

Westy's statement of "all or nothing" was inaccurate.  However, the vast majority do not choose to live in the FSU.

[WestCoast]

Much as they may have liked some aspects of the FSU nobody immigrates to the FSU from the west.

That isn't quite true is it?

DBNeeley was an American who ended his days living in Ukraine.

Danchik is an American who lives in Russia.

Andrewfi is a Brit who lives in Estonia.

I know several Brits, Finns, and others who live in Estonia too. A pal of mine upped sticks and is now doing very well in Bulgaria.

And that's only a few off the top of my head from here. Head on over to some of the expat forums and they are heaving with Westerners who live in Moscow.

Also, several from here maintain second homes there (not wife's old apartment - places they bought or built since). Some plan to retire or semi-retire there.

As I have said before: Less Googling, more travelling. 

In absolute terms perhaps not correct but certainly in well over 95% of the cases I've seen on RUA and elsewhere, that seems to be the case. If you have examples I'd love to see them. The examples you give are mostly flawed.

For example, Andrew isn't immigrating to Estonia. He isn't fluent in Estonian or Russian after how many years, 10+? What do Brits say about foreigners who come to the UK to work but don't learn English? You certainly don't consider them citizens, especially when they have no intention of learning the local lingo and becoming proper legal citizens.

Same with Danchik. He's in Russia because he found a place where he can be gainfully employed. Will he stay there forever? Doubtful, western expats tend to return home eventually.

DBNeeley may be the exception that proves the rule. My understanding of his situation was that it was far easier for him to move to Ukraine to live and work than it was for his wife to move to the US and live and work.

[Rasputin]

Some stayed for years and left: Richard and Scott are two that come to mind.

[Manny]

Much as they may have liked some aspects of the FSU nobody immigrates to the FSU from the west.

That isn't quite true, is it?

DBNeeley was an American who ended his days living in Ukraine.

Danchik is an American who lives in Russia.

Andrewfi is a Brit who lives in Estonia.

I know several Brits, Finns, and others who live in Estonia too. A pal of mine upped sticks and is now doing very well in Bulgaria.

And that's only a few off the top of my head from here. Head on over to some of the expat forums and they are heaving with Westerners who live in Moscow.

Also, several from here maintain second homes there (not wife's old apartment - places they bought or built since). Some plan to retire or semi-retire there.

As I have said before: Less Googling, more travelling. 

In absolute terms perhaps not correct but certainly in well over 95% of the cases I've seen on RUA and elsewhere, that seems to be the case. If you have examples I'd love to see them. The examples you give are mostly flawed.

For example, Andrew isn't immigrating to Estonia. He isn't fluent in Estonian or Russian after how many years, 10+? What do Brits say about foreigners who come to the UK to work but don't learn English? You certainly don't consider them citizens, especially when they have no intention of learning the local lingo and becoming proper legal citizens.

Same with Danchik. He's in Russia because he found a place where he can be gainfully employed. Will he stay there forever? Doubtful, western expats tend to return home eventually.

DBNeeley may be the exception that proves the rule. My understanding of his situation was that it was far easier for him to move to Ukraine to live and work than it was for his wife to move to the US and live and work.

You said: "Nobody immigrates to the FSU from the west." - I showed you they do.

Do you admit your statement was wrong?

Yes or no is all I need.

[Rasputin]

Depends what is meant by immigrate. If one means moving to another country to become a citizen of that country, most of the people mentioned would certainly not qualify. Maybe Mendy could become a Russian citizen as he could pass the language exam...

[WestCoast]

Much as they may have liked some aspects of the FSU nobody immigrates to the FSU from the west.

That isn't quite true is it?

DBNeeley was an American who ended his days living in Ukraine.

Danchik is an American who lives in Russia.

Andrewfi is a Brit who lives in Estonia.

I know several Brits, Finns, and others who live in Estonia too. A pal of mine upped sticks and is now doing very well in Bulgaria.

And that's only a few off the top of my head from here. Head on over to some of the expat forums and they are heaving with Westerners who live in Moscow.

Also, several from here maintain second homes there (not wife's old apartment - places they bought or built since). Some plan to retire or semi-retire there.

As I have said before: Less Googling, more travelling. 

In absolute terms perhaps not correct but certainly in well over 95% of the cases I've seen on RUA and elsewhere, that seems to be the case. If you have examples I'd love to see them. The examples you give are mostly flawed.

For example, Andrew isn't immigrating to Estonia. He isn't fluent in Estonian or Russian after how many years, 10+? What do Brits say about foreigners who come to the UK to work but don't learn English? You certainly don't consider them citizens, especially when they have no intention of learning the local lingo and becoming proper legal citizens.

Same with Danchik. He's in Russia because he found a place where he can be gainfully employed. Will he stay there forever? Doubtful, western expats tend to return home eventually.

DBNeeley may be the exception that proves the rule. My understanding of his situation was that it was far easier for him to move to Ukraine to live and work than it was for his wife to move to the US and live and work.

You said: "Nobody immigrates to the FSU from the west." - I showed you they do.

Do you admit your statement was wrong?

Yes or no is all I need.

No. When you can show me that Andrew is taking out citizenship then I'll believe. And Andrew is in Estonia which may be the FSU but is currently the EU and receiving some serious capital from the EU to bring it up to EU standards. It's got to be far more pleasant to live in Estonia than in Russia or the 'stans, etc.

Manny you have said you wouldn't move to Russia. Really that's all that someone needs to know. The guy who wrote the book on marrying FSUW wouldn't immigrate to Russia.

[Manny]

No. When you can show me that Andrew is taking out citizenship then I'll believe. And Andrew is in Estonia which may be the FSU but is currently the EU and receiving some serious capital from the EU to bring it up to EU standards. It's got to be far more pleasant to live in Estonia than in Russia or the 'stans, etc.

Manny you have said you wouldn't move to Russia. Really that's all that someone needs to know. The guy who wrote the book on marrying FSUW wouldn't immigrate to Russia.

I think the reader can draw his own conclusion from that. 

[NS1]

No. When you can show me that Andrew is taking out citizenship then I'll believe. And Andrew is in Estonia which may be the FSU but is currently the EU and receiving some serious capital from the EU to bring it up to EU standards. It's got to be far more pleasant to live in Estonia than in Russia or the 'stans, etc.

Manny you have said you wouldn't move to Russia. Really that's all that someone needs to know. The guy who wrote the book on marrying FSUW wouldn't immigrate to Russia.

I think the reader can draw his own conclusion from that. 

I think few if any every truly immigrate, some move and live there, but never give up their passport and ability
to come home.

[Manny]

Why must people give up their passport? There is simply no need. I know some Americans do as they are taxed on their worldwide income as a US citizen by the IRS, and renouncing nationality is the only way to escape that. But for everyone else from the west, a western passport is more useful for international travel than one from Russia or Ukraine. The two subjects are quite different.

How long must one live in a place to be considered a true immigrant? Andrew has been in Estonia about a decade. Dan has been in Moscow a long time as well.

Westy just wails when demonstrated to be wrong and wont admit it. He then uses others comments to try to reframe his original meaning to try to make him look less wrong. It is a silly and transparent tactic. Better to say "Ya got me there - I was wrong".  Bickering with him is a fools errand.

[WestCoast]

Why must people give up their passport? There is simply no need. I know some Americans do as they are taxed on their worldwide income as a US citizen by the IRS, and renouncing nationality is the only way to escape that. But for everyone else from the west, a western passport is more useful for international travel than one from Russia or Ukraine. The two subjects are quite different.

How long must one live in a place to be considered a true immigrant? Andrew has been in Estonia about a decade. Dan has been in Moscow a long time as well.

Westy just wails when demonstrated to be wrong and wont admit it. He then uses others comments to try to reframe his original meaning to try to make him look less wrong. It is a silly and transparent tactic. Better to say "Ya got me there - I was wrong".  Bickering with him is a fools errand.

Manny if you can't converse in the local language you're not immigrating to that country. You're not integrating into that society. As I mentioned before Brits don't take kindly to those who arrive in Britain to work but don't learn the language or take out citizenship. Same in Canada and the US.

If you've been in a country 10+ years and can't speak the language to a near fluent level you're not immigrating. You're there to work for some years and return home at a later date.

[Mikeav8r]

Why must people give up their passport? There is simply no need. I know some Americans do as they are taxed on their worldwide income as a US citizen by the IRS, and renouncing nationality is the only way to escape that. But for everyone else from the west, a western passport is more useful for international travel than one from Russia or Ukraine. The two subjects are quite different.

How long must one live in a place to be considered a true immigrant? Andrew has been in Estonia about a decade. Dan has been in Moscow a long time as well.

Westy just wails when demonstrated to be wrong and wont admit it. He then uses others comments to try to reframe his original meaning to try to make him look less wrong. It is a silly and transparent tactic. Better to say "Ya got me there - I was wrong".  Bickering with him if a fools errand.

Manny if you can't converse in the local language you're not immigrating to that country. You're not integrating into that society. As I mentioned before Brits don't take kindly to those who arrive in Britain to work but don't learn the language or take out citizenship. Same in Canada and the US.

If you've been in a country 10+ years and can't speak the language to a near fluent level you're not immigrating. You're there to work for some years and return home at a later date.

My fiance' cannot converse in English so why the hell am I having to fill out all this "Immigration" paperwork then?

What are her alternatives?  Please let me know so I can make other (preferably easier) arrangements for her immigration moving here.  Thanks in advance  

Her intention is to move here from her current country and stay.  She will continue to learn the language and integrate into society as any new immigrant resident citizen would...damn..what the heck do I call her?

I think your definition by the language spoken needs to be re-visited Westy.  You ever hear of a place called "Little Italy" or "Chinatown"?  Most of the "immigrants" that came from those two countries over the past century+ didn't speak a word of English.

While I agree many people that move to the FSU do so on a temporary basis and end up returning home at some point, some do make it a point to stay.  I personally think immigration from here (anywhere in the west) is looked at in a different light than those coming here.  A play on words if you will.  To me, immigration is to make a permanent move with no intention of returning and as mentioned above, it is not necessary to give up ones passport.

By the way, there are thousands of elderly immigrants living here for the past 30+ years that barely speak 20 words of English.  What shall we call them?  There is no requirement to become a citizen here but I bet they live out the rest of their lives in the US.

[yankee]

Why must people give up their passport? There is simply no need. I know some Americans do as they are taxed on their worldwide income as a US citizen by the IRS, and renouncing nationality is the only way to escape that. But for everyone else from the west, a western passport is more useful for international travel than one from Russia or Ukraine. The two subjects are quite different.

How long must one live in a place to be considered a true immigrant? Andrew has been in Estonia about a decade. Dan has been in Moscow a long time as well.

Westy just wails when demonstrated to be wrong and wont admit it. He then uses others comments to try to reframe his original meaning to try to make him look less wrong. It is a silly and transparent tactic. Better to say "Ya got me there - I was wrong".  Bickering with him if a fools errand.

Manny if you can't converse in the local language you're not immigrating to that country. You're not integrating into that society. As I mentioned before Brits don't take kindly to those who arrive in Britain to work but don't learn the language or take out citizenship. Same in Canada and the US.

If you've been in a country 10+ years and can't speak the language to a near fluent level you're not immigrating. You're there to work for some years and return home at a later date.

My fiance' cannot converse in English so why the hell am I having to fill out all this "Immigration" paperwork then?

What are her alternatives?  Please let me know so I can make other (preferably easier) arrangements for her immigration moving here.  Thanks in advance  

Her intention is to move here from her current country and stay.  She will continue to learn the language and integrate into society as any new immigrant resident citizen would...damn..what the heck do I call her?

I think your definition by the language spoken needs to be re-visited Westy.  You ever hear of a place called "Little Italy" or "Chinatown"?  Most of the "immigrants" that came from those two countries over the past century+ didn't speak a word of English.

While I agree many people that move to the FSU do so on a temporary basis and end up returning home at some point, some do make it a point to stay.  I personally think immigration from here (anywhere in the west) is looked at in a different light than those coming here.  A play on words if you will.  To me, immigration is to make a permanent move with no intention of returning and as mentioned above, it is not necessary to give up ones passport.

By the way, there are thousands of elderly immigrants living here for the past 30+ years that barely speak 20 words of English.  What shall we call them?  There is no requirement to become a citizen here but I bet they live out the rest of their lives in the US.

I agree with you.  In Boston we have a huge Russian Jew popualtion that has been here since the USSR.  The can not speak English.  The get wellfair and all the benefits and I mean all.

[WestCoast]

Manny, you may not be anti Ukraine, but it is rare if every you say anything good about it.

I never heard any good words about Russia from most of regular forum posters here. I don't count wedon'thaterussianswehateputin statements. So what? 

Millaa it's real easy to determine if Russia or the UK, the US or EU is better. When a WM marries a RW where do they end up living? The answer isn't Russia. That says all there is to say about Russia. What WM wants to live in a mafia state (another name for Russia).

[Millaa]

Manny, you may not be anti Ukraine, but it is rare if every you say anything good about it.

I never heard any good words about Russia from most of regular forum posters here. I don't count wedon'thaterussianswehateputin statements. So what? 

Millaa it's real easy to determine if Russia or the UK, the US or EU is better. When a WM marries a RW where do they end up living? The answer isn't Russia. That says all there is to say about Russia. What WM wants to live in a mafia state (another name for Russia).

If I were you, I would not comment the things you don't have the slightest idea.   Если по-русски, заколебал уже всех своим невежеством, почерпнутым из википедии.

[WestCoast]

Manny, you may not be anti Ukraine, but it is rare if every you say anything good about it.

I never heard any good words about Russia from most of regular forum posters here. I don't count wedon'thaterussianswehateputin statements. So what? 

Millaa it's real easy to determine if Russia or the UK, the US or EU is better. When a WM marries a RW where do they end up living? The answer isn't Russia. That says all there is to say about Russia. What WM wants to live in a mafia state (another name for Russia).

If I were you, I would not comment the things you don't have the slightest idea.   Если по-русски, заколебал уже всех своим невежеством, почерпнутым из википедии.

Millaa my ex was Chinese, we lived in Canada. I know lots of international couples. Canadians and Americans or UK and US couples etc. Look around at the forums, few if any international couples choose Russia or Ukraine or the 'stans. What does that say about the FSU? Pretty much everything.

[Lon]

 
  you  know that there are people who did move to Russian and the FSU, and others who call the FSU and Russia there 2nd home, so
you are not speaking from ignorance.
  so...why is it you are making idiotic statements like this???  do you just insult a person's home country because they do
not agree with you?  or is it just because she is a patriotic Russian woman?  perhaps just a woman?  maybe it is because you are just
another internet western troll like so many others?  am I close on my guesses?  they seem a more accurate statement.
  maybe, in the future, you could write about something pertinent to the topic and something you actually have knowledge of, instead of
being a little minded donkey!
  as a final comment, try not being a bully.

Millaa it's real easy to determine if Russia or the UK, the US or EU is better. When a WM marries a RW where do they end up living? The answer isn't Russia. That says all there is to say about Russia. What WM wants to live in a mafia state (another name for Russia).

[Net_Lenka]

Poor philosophy of consumption which determines which country is  the best by financial indicators I pity you westerns...BTW somehow you do seek for better non-material things ( like your soul mates) in no other places but "mafia states" - wonder why?

[Halo]

I don't think Westy is looking for a Russian wife, though I could be wrong.

It is not just financial indicators.  Life expectancy is much higher as well.   Medical care, in general, is better.  However, I believe there are many things in the West that could be improved.

[WestCoast]

 
  you  know that there are people who did move to Russian and the FSU, and others who call the FSU and Russia there 2nd home, so
you are not speaking from ignorance.
  so...why is it you are making idiotic statements like this???  do you just insult a person's home country because they do
not agree with you?  or is it just because she is a patriotic Russian woman?  perhaps just a woman?  maybe it is because you are just
another internet western troll like so many others?  am I close on my guesses?  they seem a more accurate statement.
  maybe, in the future, you could write about something pertinent to the topic and something you actually have knowledge of, instead of
being a little minded donkey!
  as a final comment, try not being a bully.

Millaa it's real easy to determine if Russia or the UK, the US or EU is better. When a WM marries a RW where do they end up living? The answer isn't Russia. That says all there is to say about Russia. What WM wants to live in a mafia state (another name for Russia).

Lon I know you have to speak up for your wife but she gives at least as good as she gets.

As I said few if any international couples choose Russia or the FSU. They may have a vacation home there or visit relatives but that's not the same as deciding to live there permanently, make your living there and raise a family there.

I'm not insulting Russia, certainly not most of the people. Just the power structure, the Kremlin, the oligarchs, etc. I'm speaking facts. Look at Transparency International's evaluation of Russia. Compare it to the US or Canada. Major differences. Does the US have problems? Yes, many. See my posts on the Obama thread. Does Canada have problems? Yes, many. See my posts on the Canuck Corner thread. It's just that the problems in Russia are far worse.

I'm certainly not the first to refer to Russia as a mafia state, I didn't originate the term. Your wife and others refer to the current Ukrainian government in negative terms and to some extent I agree. Ukraine is at least as corrupt and as much a mafia state as Russia. Ukraine might even be a failed state, although I believe some have also applied the term to Russia.

I have nothing against Millaa or women in general. Not discussing Russia and related politics she's probably a nice person. IMHO, she doesn't have a balanced view of Russia and since she's posting her opinions on RUA I'm free to point that out. Please feel free to point out any errors I make. 

[yankee]

Manny, you may not be anti Ukraine, but it is rare if every you say anything good about it.

I never heard any good words about Russia from most of regular forum posters here. I don't count wedon'thaterussianswehateputin statements. So what? 

Millaa it's real easy to determine if Russia or the UK, the US or EU is better. When a WM marries a RW where do they end up living? The answer isn't Russia. That says all there is to say about Russia. What WM wants to live in a mafia state (another name for Russia).

Your logic is very flawed.  I cannot speak for others but I will tell you that if I could afford to live in Moscow I would move there today if I could get the appropriate visas.

[Boris]

Poor philosophy of consumption which determines which country is  the best by financial indicators I pity you westerns...BTW somehow you do seek for better non-material things ( like your soul mates) in no other places but "mafia states" - wonder why?

Supply and Demand and of course the lack of cellulite.....:-))))