The World's #1 Russian, Ukrainian & Eastern European Discussion & Information Forum - RUA!

This Is the Premier Discussion Forum on the Net for Information and Discussion about Russia, Ukraine, Eastern Europe and the Former Soviet Union. Discuss Culture, Politics, Travelling, Language, International Relationships and More. Chat with Travellers, Locals, Residents and Expats. Ask and Answer Questions about Travel, Culture, Relationships, Applying for Visas, Translators, Interpreters, and More. Give Advice, Read Trip Reports, Share Experiences and Make Friends.

Author Topic: The 9/11 Discussion.  (Read 56227 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline BillyB

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2798
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 10-20
The 9/11 Discussion.
« on: December 05, 2007, 08:30:43 PM »
Maxx, you don't have to hold back, tell me what is wrong instead of my argument is weak with a million examples. I know why USA gives economic aid. It's for our benefit. If you give a dog a bone, he will like you and maybe do as you say. It's cheaper to give Russia economic aid than get into an arms race with them or give them ambition to become the USSR again. It' cheaper to give aid to countries with totalitarian governments so they won't go to war with a neighboring country to feed their needs. But the bottom line is THEY NEED ECONOMIC AID, WE DO NOT! Some of you guys sound as if you are on the edge of being homeless and hungry. What do you think the people of Africa will think after they read that?

Maxx, one thing I learned is that I shouldn't be on the extreme left or right. Those type of  people usually go off all the time and complain and complain and complain and they are certainly a burden to whoever is in their life. They may find it's difficult for them to keep a relationship and they fail to understand that the problem isn't the nation, it isn't the President, it is THEMSELF. I look at the people who bash Bush or Clinton relentlessly, mention everything wrong with them and fail to acknowledge and understand what is right with those Presidents and those people believe whatever the media says. Thank God they aren't in power. How can anyone live with a person who is always talking about conspiracy theories, corporate elite running the World, USA sucks, and the US President is no better than terrorists? Isn't there any sunshine in their life? Can't they see the difference in governments and the people running the governments? Can they be grateful for living in a prosporous nation that is clearly more free than others? The day you see a 100% truly free nation is the day you see anarchy.
Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776. If you want to stop the war in Ukraine, fix elections, stop medical tyranny and forced vaccinations, lower inflation and make America and the world a better place, get Trump back into power. The Democrats and Republicans have shown they can't do the job. They are good at robbing us and getting people killed in non stop wars.

Offline Maxx

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4164
  • Country: ge
  • Gender: Male
  • Trips: 5-10
Re: The 9/11 Discussion.
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2007, 09:54:55 PM »

Billy, you want to believe the government is acting in our best good. They are not. Pointing out why they are endangering our economic future with inflationary spending is not being unpatriotic. I would say just the opposite.

Your mentioning those that believe in conspiracy theory make bad husbands is absurd and I take it as a cheap shot.

You mix in conspiracy theory/corporate elite with America sucks/US Presidents are terrorists. Who say the later? Here is one conspiracy theorist. 

"The real truth of the matter is that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government since the days of Andrew Jackson"

Franklin D. Roosevelt
U.S. President
1933


Believing in conspiracy theory does not make one a kook as the establishment media tries to imply.

Bashing Clintons or Bushs does not mean one chooses one side over the other OR is willing to take the middle position between these two groups. I take the meaning of what Roosevelt said above about whose behind these two groups and take my position to condemn the lot of them.

Are we Americans really more free that every other nation? I will say that we Americans and the Brits too are more likely to challenge our oppressors when we are pushed too far. That is why our propaganda is so sophisticated to fool a smart person like you. You know about how stacked the deck is about the VAWA laws. Why can't you see that about banking, corporatism and politics?

Economic aid to totalitarian countries winds up into the Swiss bank accounts of these nations leaders. The money is used to buy off these leaders so that they continue to plunder their people and natural resources for the multi-national corporate interests. It's not about being humanitarian. 

Maxx

Offline PlumberMan

  • Member
  • Posts: 310
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 9/11 Discussion.
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2007, 10:18:08 PM »
Maxx,
You bring up a interesting point about freedom. Freedom, I believe is a interpretation. For instance; who has more freedom, a single man living in Communist China or a married man living in America?


Offline Maxx

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4164
  • Country: ge
  • Gender: Male
  • Trips: 5-10
Re: The 9/11 Discussion.
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2007, 10:36:32 PM »
The freedom we are talking about here is about how much coercion the state exercises over it's citizens with it's laws and regulations that restrict the free will of people who are not hurting others. And with it how efficent our enforcement is of those laws. If we as an advanced technological nation allow national ID cards or drivers licenses with RFID chips then I will say America will be on the forefront of becoming the most unfree country in the world.

"The U.S. State Department soon will begin issuing passports with radio frequency identification, or RFID, chips embedded in them, and Virginia may become the first state to glue RFID tags into all its driver's licenses"

"the Real ID Act, gives unfettered authority to the Department of Homeland Security to design state ID cards and driver's licenses. Among the possibilities: biometric information such as retinal scans, fingerprints, DNA data and RFID tracking technology."

“The high-tech passports are supposed to deter theft and forgeries, as well as accelerate immigration checks at airports and borders. They'll contain within their covers a miniscule microchip that stores basic data, including the passport holder's name, date of birth and place of birth. The chip, which can transmit information through a tiny included antenna, also has enough room to store biometric data such as digitized fingerprints, photographs and iris scans.”

"In reality, this bill is a Trojan horse," said Paul, the Republican congressman. "It pretends to offer desperately needed border control in order to stampede Americans into sacrificing what is uniquely American: our constitutionally protected liberty."


http://www.news.com/National-ID-cards-on-the-way/2100-1028_3-5573414.html

George Orwell never had this much imagination.

BillyB might say I am unpatriotic for telling you about this. I think the opposite and believe all patriotic Americans should get their heads out of the sand and see where we are being lead.

Maxx

Offline BillyB

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2798
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 10-20
Re: The 9/11 Discussion.
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2007, 11:08:44 PM »
. You know about how stacked the deck is about the VAWA laws. Why can't you see that about banking, corporatism and politics?

Maxx, I think VAWA is not fair but unlike you, I want banks, corporations and politics to be successful. Right now, the US Prez is the most powerful person in politics in the World. Someday it may be somebody else and you may have something to really fear if it's a tyrant. Some people complain of the loss of jobs in the US but also complain Corporations are too successful and powerful. The very businesses that give you a job and build the products you adore is the bad guy?  If banks don't have money to loan money, they go out of business and individual people won't be able to get a loan to start up businesses for their dreams. Although a company you did business with took their business overseas, if a large corporation wanted to sign a contract with you, I doubt you'd turn them down.

Maxx, if you got a better way to run a country than the way it's done in the USA, state it now or patent it and sell it to some country in the dump to see if it's going to work. Complaining about the current situation isn't doing anything for me to change my views. So many years of hearing things like Social Security is going to go bankrupt when the baby boomer's retire ain't going to happen. One thing I did learn is life here is actually better than all the gloom and doom talk. Most people happy with their lives live a happy and quiet life and building the American dream. And the silent is the majority. They spend time with their kids and family instead of on the street in front of cameras protesting and throwing themselves in front of cars, setting the American flag on fire and waking up everymorning feeling dirty and ashamed because they were born an American.

I don't want the government to keep track of every citizen all the time but I wouldn't mind known criminals being tracked all the time. Homeland security is not just something the goverment thought up, it's what the people demanded after 9/11. Ben Franklin said  "Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.” and I say "those who desire to give up security in order to gain freedom will not have, nor do they deserve, either one". Maxx, there needs to be a balance because there's always somebody or some nation in this World ready and willing to take your nation's place on top and own you. Maxx, you may feel owned by the US government, try  __________(insert any foreign government here).


One nice thing about America is that people are free to move to a new location where the grass is greener, even if it's out of the country. As of now, there are more people coming than going. There would be even more coming if we didn't restrict the flow. There are more restrictions to come here than in Europe. There is a good reason for the fact people want to come here and it's not all based on a fantasy they seen in a Hollywood movie. Think about the overall picture. Be thankful you were born here with a choice to leave at your own free will. Most people don't have a choice.
Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776. If you want to stop the war in Ukraine, fix elections, stop medical tyranny and forced vaccinations, lower inflation and make America and the world a better place, get Trump back into power. The Democrats and Republicans have shown they can't do the job. They are good at robbing us and getting people killed in non stop wars.

Offline Maxx

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4164
  • Country: ge
  • Gender: Male
  • Trips: 5-10
Re: The 9/11 Discussion.
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2007, 01:04:00 AM »


I don't want the government to keep track of every citizen all the time but I wouldn't mind known criminals being tracked all the time. Homeland security is not just something the goverment thought up, it's what the people demanded after 9/11. Ben Franklin said  "Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.” and I say "those who desire to give up security in order to gain freedom will not have, nor do they deserve, either one".

And that is how they will enslave us. They create a Pearl Harbor event and get the people to give up their liberty. I know I know you say 911 was caused by terrorists. Besides the Pentagon and a field in Pennsylvania two airliners crashed into 2 buildings in New York City and 3 buildings came down in demolition fashion. The Twin Towers and the 47 story Building 7. Building 7 caught fire from falling debris from the Twin Towers. Office furniture and carpeting burns for a few hours on a few of the floors. The owner of the building Larry Silverstein says this

  24 seconds long

Does the NYFD have trained demolition experts that can race through a burning building, plant the appropriate amount of explosives on each of those 47 floors, have it all wired up to go in a timed fashion with imploding the center columns first so the building collapses into it's self, into it's own footprint and not come down and crash and slide into other buildings and do this in a few hours or less? It is my understanding that controlled demolition takes weeks to prepare on a building of that size. Wouldn't those who need to "pull" a building be better off using the NYFD to do it for them??

What I am getting at was that building and the two next to it were set up weeks before the "surprise attack" on September 11. As David Schippers the prosecutor in the Clinton impeachment trial said, he was told about this attack months before it happened by FBI agents who were forbidden by their superiors to investigate it. They went to Schippers because he was considered a credible and honorable man, which he is. But Schippers said every one of his efforts to contact his Senators and Congressmen about this and they wouldn't even return his calls. This is the guy who prosecuted and brought down the Chicago mob and impeached Bill Clinton and nobody would get back to him.

FOR CHRIST'S SAKES EVERYONE PLEASE PLEASE WATCH THIS!!!
 

Billy you got a severe case of cognative dissonance. YOU NEED TO WAKE UP and become a useful patriot.  

Maxx

More on David Schippers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Schippers

Offline BillyB

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2798
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 10-20
Re: The 9/11 Discussion.
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2007, 09:53:28 AM »
Maxx, you need to understand that the World Trade center is manned 24 hours a day. It would take the largest team of demolition experts to prepare almost the two largest buildings in the World for demo. There will be lots of noise when drilling into the support columns, there will be so much concrete dust in the air and on furniture and carpets that it would be impossible to conceal and clean when tens of thousands of people come to work in the morning.

You may get some demo experts to do this murderous act but I don't think you can find a team of them that will do it, let alone keep quiet.

For you to say that the American government to launch an attack on it's own citizens to launch a war against Afghanistan which has no economic or political benefit is ridiculous. Iraq's war was based on WMD's so 9/11 wasn't necessary

You would need to find demo experts ready to commit mass murder, the security and janitorial detail of the WTC would need to be in on it and people from all levels of the government would need to be on it.

There is no solid proof the government did this. Both the Republicans, Democrats and Independents have seen or heard all the stuff you've seen on the internet so if there is solid evidence, those who would bring forth the TRUTH would be heroes for ratting out the people in government who would do such a crime. Since nobody is ratting out anybody, we must assume there is no evidence Bush was involved OR  we must assume everybody at all levels of government IS involved for this crime. At a minimum, their crime would be for keeping silent on this issue.

Even Generals and Admirals would have to stay silent on this issues since their fellow comrades died at the Pentagon. Do you think they wanted to find the real perpetrators and bring justice to them or do you think they were in on it too?

Maxx, you may convince me that some people in the American government is anti-American but for nobody in government  to speak out against a possible crime of murdering Americans as Bush and company is accused of doing, we must say they're all anti-American and in on the plot.

This in itself is insulting to every voter who voted for their politician whether he/she be a liberal or conservative since each one of those politicians are a murderer or at a minimum, don't have the balls to speak out about the mass murder of it's own citizens. I guess we the people don't have the ability to distinguish a thug on the street from a semi-decent person trying to do what's right to some degree for this nation.

Some people are in politics for personal gain, some are there to help their fellow citizens, few or none are there to cooperate or stay silent on murdering Americans for personal gain. Certainly if someone or political party exposed Bush as a murderer with solid evidence, that person or party will feature the next US President as they'll be heroes.

Maxx, are you willing to tell everyone here that the whole US government at the highest levels is in on 9/11 whether it be orchestrating the murders of Americans or staying silent on the issue although they have reviewed the same stuff you have?

I certainly reviewed many stuff on the internet and I'm not convinced. I've seen "experts" in the field of Iron say that steel doesn't melt at the temperatures the WTC was burning at so the towers shouldn't have fallen. IDIOTS! Your own hands can bend steel before it melts. Just heating the steel reinforced columns will affect the column's structural integrity and certainly at one point before melting it will not support the tens of thousands of tons of weight on top of it. There's more but too much more for me to waste more time to rebut at the moment.

andrew, I have my opinions on what America is doing wrong and what they need to improve on but when I look at the overall picture of what's happening here compared to what's happening elsewhere, I feel confident we are making progress and I am happy.
Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776. If you want to stop the war in Ukraine, fix elections, stop medical tyranny and forced vaccinations, lower inflation and make America and the world a better place, get Trump back into power. The Democrats and Republicans have shown they can't do the job. They are good at robbing us and getting people killed in non stop wars.

Offline Maxx

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4164
  • Country: ge
  • Gender: Male
  • Trips: 5-10
Re: The 9/11 Discussion.
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2007, 11:00:14 AM »

So you didn't watch David Schippers and his story about all his efforts and those of the FBI agents that came to him were thwarted?

How does the NYFD "pull" a burning the size of building 7 while it's burning in such a short time? Did you watch the Larry Silverstein yoiutube? To plant Thermite explosives next to steel columns that are behind paneling and do it on 47 floors and not use the elevators because the building is burning would require superhuman effort. Does the NYFD have such a large team of demolition supermen?

Billy, you ducked all of the above and are trying to lead me into defending a multitude of scattered arguments. Two things at a time OK? 

Maxx


Offline ECR844

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7142
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Searching for the word I will become
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: Resident
Re: The 9/11 Discussion.
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2007, 01:46:04 PM »
And that is how they will enslave us. They create a Pearl Harbor event and get the people to give up their liberty. I know I know you say 911 was caused by terrorists. Besides the Pentagon and a field in Pennsylvania two airliners crashed into 2 buildings in New York City and 3 buildings came down in demolition fashion. The Twin Towers and the 47 story Building 7. Building 7 caught fire from falling debris from the Twin Towers. Office furniture and carpeting burns for a few hours on a few of the floors. The owner of the building Larry Silverstein says this

  24 seconds long

Does the NYFD have trained demolition experts that can race through a burning building, plant the appropriate amount of explosives on each of those 47 floors, have it all wired up to go in a timed fashion with imploding the center columns first so the building collapses into it's self, into it's own footprint and not come down and crash and slide into other buildings and do this in a few hours or less? It is my understanding that controlled demolition takes weeks to prepare on a building of that size. Wouldn't those who need to "pull" a building be better off using the NYFD to do it for them??

What I am getting at was that building and the two next to it were set up weeks before the "surprise attack" on September 11. As David Schippers the prosecutor in the Clinton impeachment trial said, he was told about this attack months before it happened by FBI agents who were forbidden by their superiors to investigate it. They went to Schippers because he was considered a credible and honorable man, which he is. But Schippers said every one of his efforts to contact his Senators and Congressmen about this and they wouldn't even return his calls. This is the guy who prosecuted and brought down the Chicago mob and impeached Bill Clinton and nobody would get back to him.

FOR CHRIST'S SAKES EVERYONE PLEASE PLEASE WATCH THIS!!!
 

Billy you got a severe case of cognative dissonance. YOU NEED TO WAKE UP and become a useful patriot.   

Maxx

More on David Schippers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Schippers


"Maxx,"

Do you really believe that the US Govt. (Or the NYC public safety agencies) pre-planned the WTC collapse?
Do you really believe that they did this just to undermine our civil liberties and change the US Constitution?

     I don't usually talk about this stuff much. But, since it's more than close to home, I'm going to comment a bit on this blasphemy. I spent just over 3 months 'at the pile' and was in lower Manhattan withing 24-36 hours of the collapse. I went with the agency i worked full time for and later stayed on my own dime-dollar to help after they left. Were you there at all during this time? I went through more pairs of boots than I could count because they melted from standing on that pile and looking through that structure for people who may still be alive. I was there for weeks, and  later when the only hope left was finding 'intact remains' for the families to bury. I remember being caked with dust and the air having a fog so thick you could barely see much around you. One thing I'll never forget is the abject silence in the city and sky after this.

     I worked next to people from all different sorts of agencies and even civilian volunteers who would labor 20-22 hrs a day straight with minimal breaks doing all sorts of things, to try to find people who may have against all odds survived. There were FF's, cops, fellow medics, etc.. who would work their shifts, leave where ever they were stationed and go to the 'pile' to work there the rest of the time. They would do this for weeks at a time. During this period there were times where groups of us from all sorts of agencies would take shifts and try to support the families of those lost and show up at funerals. It wasn't uncommon to go to or have 60-100 funerals a week. How many of those funerals did you attend "MAXX,"?

      Now admittedly, I have my issues and opinions-differences with the fire service. But, even with that I can say many of them are among the finest people I've had the pleasure to know or work with. They are brave men and women and none of them got into their profession to hurt people. In case you were unaware let me enlighten you to something. One of the things that multiplied the tragic aspect of this dark time in our history is many of the first responders went there to help others. They went to work to save lives and not take them. The men and women who went into those towers that day walked up 70+ flights of stairs with 100-150lbs of equipment to help people, and save lives. One thing some people may have heard about is the fact that when firemen are trapped in a building they have a mentality almost like that of soldiers. No one gets left behind. They would rather die trying to save one of their comrades than participate in an act which would kill them purposely or stand back and do nothing! They were people who literally had each others lives in their hands day in and out over the course of many years. When your reality is a situation of this magnitude and with consequences that dire you become closer than family.

     You see, many of them (NYPD,FDNY FDNY EMS, etc..) knew that the terrorists would be back, to take those towers down. Their only question was when this would occur. Many of the people from different agencies that responded in '01 were also there in '93 when they tried the first time. I can say as a statement of fact they (The FDNY, NYPD, PAPD, FBI, SS, and other agencies who had offices in that building day in and day out) didn't run around and plant explosives in that building before, during, after or otherwise.

     I also happen to know first hand for a fact that the FDNY doesn't employ people who place explosives in buildings, and take them down 'weeks later' for sport or to undermine the constitution. Some of the FDNY members and other agencies not long after enlisted in the service and went to serve in places like Afghanistan. I happen to be close with someone who did just that. I was close with people who from breathing the dust and debris were unable to carry on in their jobs, they were denied disability, medical benefits, etc.. They lost their job, and were unable to work. Yet, they didn't go on public assistance, and did the best they could to get by until 'the WTC cough' killed them. That's right, the city, the state, the govt, and the people turned their backs on these heroes and they died after that day because they were there trying to do an honorable thing, and they died because of it. To a person, they all said they wouldn't have changed a thing, if going through that helped at least one other survive.

     I also know they wouldn't have done so if for a minute they knew, thought, or even imagined the terrible insinuation that is being made here. The thought is 'sick' in beyond the most twisted of ways. The kind of way that would cause me to encourage a believer to seek psychological counseling.

     No talking head conspiracy nut who dreamed up some theory on you-tube is going to change the facts listed above. This 'theory;' has been dis proven by many scientists and experts in their field many times over. Additionally a publication called 'Popular Mechanics' even did a huge 'debunking' of this in one of their issues. In closing I'm just fine with my patriotism and I understand the constitution, etc.. I love my country, and whether I choose to ascribe or not to some nut case conspiracy theory or not won't change it. But for you to talk in this manner as disrespectfully as you have about a subject such as this is blasphemy in my book and more than out of out of line. It's just downright disrespectful, I need to stop right here for the moment. Pardon me while I go puke.

ECR844




Offline Cameraguy

  • Member
  • Posts: 213
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 9/11 Discussion.
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2007, 01:53:36 PM »
There is no solid proof the government did this. Both the Republicans, Democrats and Independents have seen or heard all the stuff you've seen on the internet so if there is solid evidence, those who would bring forth the TRUTH would be heroes for ratting out the people in government who would do such a crime. Since nobody is ratting out anybody, we must assume there is no evidence Bush was involved OR  we must assume everybody at all levels of government IS involved for this crime. At a minimum, their crime would be for keeping silent on this issue.

Even Generals and Admirals would have to stay silent on this issues since their fellow comrades died at the Pentagon. Do you think they wanted to find the real perpetrators and bring justice to them or do you think they were in on it too?

Maxx, you may convince me that some people in the American government is anti-American but for nobody in government  to speak out against a possible crime of murdering Americans as Bush and company is accused of doing, we must say they're all anti-American and in on the plot.

Hi Billy,

I'm not going to get involved in a debate and this will be my only post, but what makes you think nobody in government has spoken out? Just a few days ago, the former president of Italy told their largest newpaper that 9/11 was an inside job carried out by the CIA and MOSSAD and that every intelligence agency in the world knows it. A former German defense minister and several other European government officials have made similar accusations.

Just because our corporate-controlled media hasn't mentioned a single bit of this, including the hundreds of American government, military and intelligence officials who have serious questions about the official 9/11 story, doesn't mean they don't exist:

Senior Military, Intelligence, Law Enforcement and Government Officials Question the 9/11 Commission Report

110+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials
270+ Engineers and Architects
  60+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals
170+ Professors Question 9/11
200+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members
110+ Entertainment and Media Professionals

RECENT ARTICLES: 

Seven Senior Republican Administration Appointees Challenge Official Account of 9/11 – "Not Possible", "a Whitewash", "False"  Dec. 4, 2007  Link to full article

Seven CIA Veterans Challenge 9/11 Commission Report – Official Account of 9/11 a "Joke" and a "Cover-up"  Sept. 23, 2007  Link to full article

Many well known and respected senior U.S. military officers, intelligence services and law enforcement veterans, and government officials have expressed significant criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report or have made public statements that contradict the Report. Several even allege government complicity in the terrible acts of 9/11. This website is a collection of their statements. It is not an organization and it should be made clear that none of these individuals are affiliated with this website.

Listed below are statements by more than 110 of these senior officials. Their collective voices give credibility to the claim that the 9/11 Commission Report is tragically flawed. These individuals cannot be simply dismissed as irresponsible believers in some 9/11 conspiracy theory. Their sincere concern, backed by their decades of service to their country, demonstrate that criticism of the Report is not irresponsible, illogical, nor disloyal, per se. In fact, it can be just the opposite.

Billy, I know you're a fan of Ronald Reagan. Are you aware that the head of the Reagan administration's 'Star Wars' missile defense program has been saying for years that 9/11 was done by "highly placed individuals in the administration, with all roads passing through Dick Cheney?"

Quote
Lt. Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under Presidents Ford and Carter. U.S. Air Force fighter pilot with over 100 combat missions. (PhD in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering, Cal Tech). Former Head of the Department of Aeronautical Engineering and Assistant Dean at the U.S. Air Force Institute of Technology. 22-year Air Force career.  Also taught Mathematics and English at the University of Southern California, the University of Maryland, and Phillips University.

   •    Video 9/11/04: "A lot of these pieces of information, taken together, prove that the official story, the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is a bunch of hogwash.  It’s impossible. … There’s a second group of facts having to do with the cover up. … Taken together these things prove that high levels of our government don’t want us to know what happened and who’s responsible.…

Who gained from 9/11?  Who covered up crucial information about 9/11?  And who put out the patently false stories about 9/11 in the first place?  When you take those three things together, I think the case is pretty clear that it’s highly placed individuals in the administration, with all roads passing through Dick Cheney.

I think the very kindest thing that we can say about George W. Bush and all the people in the U.S. Government that have been involved in this massive cover-up, the very kindest thing we can say is that they were aware of impending attacks and let them happen.  Now some people will say that’s much too kind, however even that is high treason and conspiracy to commit murder." 

[Statements from 110 Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials] http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/

Every American needs to read mainstream author Naomi Wolf's new book, "The End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot."

The End of America? Naomi Wolf Thinks It Could Happen
By Don Hazen, posted November 21, 2007.

An interview with author Naomi Wolf, whose new book, "The End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot," may confirm your worries about democracy in America.

If you think we are living in scary times, your worst fears may be confirmed by reading Naomi Wolf's newest book, The End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot. In it, Wolf proves the old axiom that history does repeat itself. Or more accurately, history occurs in patterns, and in order to understand where our country is today and where it is headed, we need to read the history books.

Wolf began by diving into the early years leading up to fascist regimes, like the ones led by Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini. And the patterns that she found in those, and others all over the world, made her hair stand on end. In "The End of America," she lays out the 10 steps that dictators (or aspiring dictators) take in order to shut down an open society. "Each of those ten steps is now under way in the United States today," she writes...

http://www.alternet.org/rights/68399/?page=entire

~CG 



Offline Jinx

  • Watched
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1563
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 9/11 Discussion.
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2007, 02:27:42 PM »
 Maxx & CG,

 You are losing me (and others I'm sure) with the conspiracy theories. I despise Bush/Cheney as much as the next guy, but there is no way in hell they planned 9/11, and definitely no way firefighters set any demolition explosives. Yeah, I have watched those youtube videos with supposed "proof" but I see nothing, just people saying they heard other explosions, which sounds pretty normal to me considering lots of stuff blows up when it gets hot enough....I think burning jet fuel would do the trick.

 As for the "pull it" comment by Schippers, I understood that to mean, pull the firefighters out of building 7, because there has been enough loss of life, get em out (pull em) and let the building burn. Come on, don't believe everything you see on youtube.

 As for the topic at hand, I made a post earlier where I kinda blamed George W. for a lot of the problems going on in the U.S., but I have to agree with much of what Andrew said...many Americans have gotten themselves in this fix by overspending, and using home equity as bank. I am guilty of this, and so are millions of others, I just didn't see my home value declining, especially in California. I have learned some valuable lessons from all this, and I will be far more careful to spend within my means in the future. Maybe I shouldn't have taken all those trips to Russia/Ukraine!  ::)  Then again, you only live once, and if you save like a miser your whole life, you're probably not having much fun either.  :-\

 The dollar has declined for many reasons, but you can't blame it squarely on the American people and their love of credit cards,  and risky real estate investment, our government is the main offender of spending outside it's means.

 A funny comment I heard about the war in Iraq from Gary Shandling (comedian)  He said something like...I was up in arms in the beginning about the war in Iraq, I knew we were going there just for the oil, but now I'm like...is there oil? Are we at least getting the oil out of this mess? If not than we really got screwed.  :laugh:

Offline BillyB

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2798
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 10-20
Re: The 9/11 Discussion.
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2007, 02:47:47 PM »
So you didn't watch David Schippers and his story about all his efforts and those of the FBI agents that came to him were thwarted?


Everyday our intelligence agency come up with intelligence that something may happen. The problem is the Prez can't react accordingly to every possible situation unless there are hard facts and details about it. How the hell is anybody going to guess what planes will be taken hostage if it is to happen at all??? We can't shut down the nation for every bomb threat that comes along. The FBI should have done a better job to begin with and caught those guys before they ever got on a plane. The fact is they didn't even know where those guys were to catch them and didn't even know the terrorists true plot otherwise they could've stopped them without having the Prez to make a decision on telling them what to do.


How does the NYFD "pull" a burning the size of building 7 while it's burning in such a short time? Did you watch the Larry Silverstein yoiutube? To plant Thermite explosives next to steel columns that are behind paneling and do it on 47 floors and not use the elevators because the building is burning would require superhuman effort. Does the NYFD have such a large team of demolition supermen?

Here are a couple of answers.

http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=5

Maxx, when 9/11 happened, a lot of people and organizations wanted the one's responsible head on a plate. Government, military, police and fire organizations did their best to get to the bottom of who done it. Many people in those organizations and especially the media don't like Bush and Cheney and would love to hang them if they really did it but truth is, they didn't. Those organizations and media have gone through all the so call evidence you've read and more.

You have not answered my question. Are you willing to blame everyone at government level for being involved with the crime or not speaking out about the truth you and a few others possess? And to go one step further, will you claim the NYPD and NYFD was in with the terrorists or at a minimum, they don't have the balls to speak out against Bush or they're too stupid to understand the truth you possess?

As with the people CG pointed out, you can always find a few individual conspiracy theorists in every line of work. But the leading experts in the field have done their investigations and concluded this was not an inside job.

CG, we've debated this before and we know we're not going to change each other's minds but one thing I respect about you is that you said you believed the whole government was in it together. Bush, Hillary and company are all in it together. That is the only way the government can commit a crime of this magnitude and exposure is that they're all in it together and will keep it a secret together. And a ton of people at lower levels in government all the way to the men and women who would have had to plant explosives would have to keep it a secret. The missing plane that did not hit the Pentagon would have to be accounted for but I'm sure the airline company and it's personnel will lie to you and say it was used to hit the Pentagon. I wonder what happened to all the people on that flight since it never hit the Pentagon? Maybe their relatives are in on the secret too since they would have had to attend hundreds of fake funerals for passengers that never existed on a flight that never was.

Is it possible for the amount of people needed to commit this mass murder to stay silent forever or will one come forward and tell their role in it? Maybe, just maybe, the terrorists did it.
Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776. If you want to stop the war in Ukraine, fix elections, stop medical tyranny and forced vaccinations, lower inflation and make America and the world a better place, get Trump back into power. The Democrats and Republicans have shown they can't do the job. They are good at robbing us and getting people killed in non stop wars.

Offline ECR844

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7142
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Searching for the word I will become
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: Resident
Re: The 9/11 Discussion.
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2007, 03:01:38 PM »
To the conspiracy theorists: Kindly read my above post and also take the following into consideration. Sell Bull $hit someplace else, we're all stocked up here.

To dishonor the families, the people who lost so much and the memory of that day is beyond disrespectful. It's right up there with one of these 'nut jobs' calling the families of the victims and offering to 'show them the truth' with a camera crew in tow. Yes, one of these 'douche bags' actually tried it. Showed up in the evening when everyone including the kids were home. Stuck a camera in a kids face and asked him "How does it feel to know your government killed your daddy?" Some people just have no respect and no idea that there is a line of decency that should not be crossed. Yes, the truth can be ugly, and gut wrenching. But, to cross the line and behave in this way with anything less than 100% 'proof' is out of line, and lower than low.  :sick0012:

Much like "Billy B," stated above, a conspiracy of this magnitude and the ensuing cover up and magnitude of it is unimaginable. Couple that with the fact that people generally just can't keep their mouth shut. When you're talking the sheer numbers of different people involved and expecting them ALL to keep quiet or not keep 'proof' as insurance is just ludicrous at best.  >:( >:(     

Offline Maxx

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4164
  • Country: ge
  • Gender: Male
  • Trips: 5-10
Re: The 9/11 Discussion.
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2007, 04:16:30 PM »
You sure can see what happens when emotions go into hyperdrive.

Where did I say members of the NYFD or NYPD were in on the job?? I said Larry Silverstein said that when he said  "I said to pull it and then the building came down". The "it" was not the fire fighters (paying attention Jinx?) but the building. If he was pulling out the fire fighters he would have said "I said to pull them out of there and then the building came down. I do not refer to people as "it" but I do refer to a building as an "it". Larry Silverstein admitted he had control. I say those explosives were planted well in advance of 911. How could Larry Silverstein say with such confidence "Pull it" and in the same breath said "and then the building came down" if he was unsure how or if that building would collapse?

I do not blame the NYPD or NYFD and in fact say they were heroes. I believe most people in government are fine decent people. I do believe however that there was as David Schippers said, a "mote" of people in high level government that prevented him an a group of FBI agents he was represented from getting to those that could have done something. This "mote" is what I blame not the NYFD,,, Sheezz

Don't you think it's kind of strange that the second airliner crashed into the second tower and it was not being pursued by a jet dispatched by NORAD? Heck there were all kinds of media helicopters there and even one blimp. Were were the airforce jets??

No ECR844 I wasn't there. I flew past it on the 17th from JFK on my way to Russia and seen the smoke. That doesn't make me anymore of an expert on what happened that day then it does you. I wasn't with the USS Cole in 2000 or in Oklahoma City in 1995, Waco and the WTC for it's first bombing in 1993, Ruby Ridge in 1992, Lebanon in 1983, Dealy Plaza in 1963, the gulf of Tonkin in 1964, Pearl Harbor in 1941, the Riechstag fire in 1933 or the sinking the Lusitania in 1917. I do have an opinion about some of these events. Is that OK?   

Maxx

Online Markje

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8552
  • Country: nl
  • Gender: Male
  • MCMLXXIV
    • Mark's unix pages
  • Spouses Country: Crimea
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 20+
Re: The 9/11 Discussion.
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2007, 04:33:39 PM »
I also believe they blew up the towers, but for a different reason.

See how neatly it collapsed on itself. They must have worried it would topple over damaging even more skyscrapers.

By this controlled demolition they actually saved lives. And yes, it would take a freak stroke of luck to make it collaps so neatly upon itself OR .... good mechanics planning the demolition WAY in advance.

OO===[][]===OO
My first trip to my wife: To Evpatoria!
My road trip to Crimea: Roadtrip to Evpatoria

Offline Cameraguy

  • Member
  • Posts: 213
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 9/11 Discussion.
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2007, 04:49:05 PM »
CG, we've debated this before and we know we're not going to change each other's minds but one thing I respect about you is that you said you believed the whole government was in it together. Bush, Hillary and company are all in it together. That is the only way the government can commit a crime of this magnitude and exposure is that they're all in it together and will keep it a secret together. And a ton of people at lower levels in government all the way to the men and women who would have had to plant explosives would have to keep it a secret.

Even though I said I wasn't going to debate this, I have to respond to the claim that I think the "whole government was in it together." It would be more accurate to say that most Republican and Democrat politicians who get to the highest levels of American government are two sides of the same coin. That coin is called the CFR -- the Council of Foreign Relations. Ask yourself why every 2008 presidential candidate except Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich are CFR members? Ask yourself how our last two presidential candidates -- Bush and Kerry -- just happened to be members of the secretive Skull & Bones? If you think this is some kind of harmless fraternal organization, think again.

You keep implying that there are only a few people within the government that have serious questions and allegations about 9/11. If you'll read the link I posted on the previous page, you'll see that's simply untrue. You easily dismiss these hundreds of government officials, professionals and scholars who have nothing to gain except arousing the anger and ridicule of others while you uncritically accept a Popular Mechanics debunking article. PM is owned by the Hearst Corporation and the senior researcher who wrote that article is Michael Chertoff, cousin of DHS head Benjamin Chertoff.

The notion that my beliefs are based on watching a couple of YouTube videos is ludicrous and insulting. I wasn't even suspicious until a couple years ago when I ordered a 9/11 photo essay book that was written by some NYFD firefighters/rescuers who spent months on the scene and organized an ATV brigade to ferry people and equipment in and out of the area. When I received the book, it was bookmarked with "deception dollars" that were covered with numerous 9/11 truth websites. In the book (and the page that was bookmarked), the firefighters describe how they recovered 3 of the 4 black boxes from the hijacked planes. They immediately turned them over to the FBI. The FBI told them to keep quiet and never mention this to anyone. One of the firefighters asked, "unless you can give me a good reason, why should I?" He said they couldn't. To this day, the government claims the black boxes form the WTC wreckage were never recovered.

After visiting the 9/11 websites that were printed on their "deception dollars", I thought holy shit, these NYFD firefighters are implying that 9/11 was an inside job! Later I read that a government gag order was imposed on the firefighters to prevent from talking about 9/11. I wondered why that was necessary.

This bothered me so much that I spent six long months investigating every aspect of 9/11. And I mean everything. What I discovered was overwhelming, incontrovertible and shocking. I felt sick for months. I think most of the defenders of the government's conspiracy theory who are so sure they know what really happened or who've never personally investigated the events of 9/11 either don't want to know the truth or would have trouble handling the implications. Perhaps it's better, because after I realized that 9/11 was a massive lie, I wanted to know what else we'd been deceived about.

Believe me, THAT'S a rabbit hole you don't want to go down. Best to stay focused on discussing Russian women. Sorry if I offended anyone.

~CG

Offline Maxx

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4164
  • Country: ge
  • Gender: Male
  • Trips: 5-10
Re: The 9/11 Discussion.
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2007, 04:58:21 PM »

Markje you are a intelligent a logical man. If fire is so effective in bringing buildings down into their own footprint then why the need for demolition experts?

Maxx

Online Markje

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8552
  • Country: nl
  • Gender: Male
  • MCMLXXIV
    • Mark's unix pages
  • Spouses Country: Crimea
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 20+
Re: The 9/11 Discussion.
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2007, 05:02:38 PM »
Markje you are a intelligent a logical man. If fire is so effective in bringing buildings down into their own footprint then why the need for demolition experts?

Maxx

Like I said: I believe someone pushed a kill-switch after the buildings were on fire. This switch made the buildings instantly collaps.

Thats why the demolition experts were needed. They put the explosives in during construction of the twin-towers, so they could be demolished because of old-age, calamity or something else (in this case: 2 planes)

This is very good to spot on youtube. You see the entire building for a while, smoking for the top. Then you see a dustcloud in the bottom and right after the building collapses. The USA government explained this by saying that was the elevators hitting the ground because their ropes didn't hold anymore. I call bollocks, elevators do not generate that big dust-clouds. And I seen plenty of demolition-explosives to get rid of high buildings thanks to "demolition experts" on Discovery channel shows.
OO===[][]===OO
My first trip to my wife: To Evpatoria!
My road trip to Crimea: Roadtrip to Evpatoria

Offline Maxx

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4164
  • Country: ge
  • Gender: Male
  • Trips: 5-10
Re: The 9/11 Discussion.
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2007, 05:14:26 PM »

This bothered me so much that I spent six long months investigating every aspect of 9/11. And I mean everything. What I discovered was overwhelming, incontrovertible and shocking. I felt sick for months. I think most of the defenders of the government's conspiracy theory who are so sure they know what really happened or who've never personally investigated the events of 9/11 either don't want to know the truth or would have trouble handling the implications. Perhaps it's better, because after I realized that 9/11 was a massive lie, I wanted to know what else we'd been deceived about.
~CG

Yeah and when you have your eyes opened suddenly you can ask questions like this, "If the Federal government has the power to print it's own money why does it borrow money from the privately owned Federal Reserve bank and pay interest to them when it can avoid the interest altogether by bypassing them?" Such questions cannot be asked by BillyB or ERC844 because they believe the government operates on the up an up.


Maxx  

Offline Maxx

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4164
  • Country: ge
  • Gender: Male
  • Trips: 5-10
Re: The 9/11 Discussion.
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2007, 05:21:29 PM »

markje here is something for you in Dutch with English subtitles.


I find it very revealing watching his reaction 50 seconds or so into this,


Maxx

Online Markje

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8552
  • Country: nl
  • Gender: Male
  • MCMLXXIV
    • Mark's unix pages
  • Spouses Country: Crimea
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 20+
Re: The 9/11 Discussion.
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2007, 05:38:28 PM »
markje here is something for you in Dutch with English subtitles.


I find it very revealing watching his reaction 50 seconds or so into this,


Maxx

Damn, I could translate that video better than the guys who did that. But the transcript is fairly accurate. But why are you showing me this, It says what I said: Controlled explosion and because of the time needed planned way before 9/11
OO===[][]===OO
My first trip to my wife: To Evpatoria!
My road trip to Crimea: Roadtrip to Evpatoria

Offline ECR844

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7142
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Searching for the word I will become
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: Resident
Re: The 9/11 Discussion.
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2007, 05:38:56 PM »
You sure can see what happens when emotions go into hyperdrive.

Where did I say members of the NYFD or NYPD were in on the job?? I said Larry Silverstein said that when he said  "I said to pull it and then the building came down". The "it" was not the fire fighters (paying attention Jinx?) but the building. If he was pulling out the fire fighters he would have said "I said to pull them out of there and then the building came down. I do not refer to people as "it" but I do refer to a building as an "it". Larry Silverstein admitted he had control. I say those explosives were planted well in advance of 911. How could Larry Silverstein say with such confidence "Pull it" and in the same breath said "and then the building came down" if he was unsure how or if that building would collapse?

"Maxx,"

   You are correct my emotions did go into hyper-drive. Thats what happens when you experience something of this magnitude ( in person and the aftermath) and it's effects you deeply. Anyone who was there experienced the same, and have passionate feelings on this.... It's called being human. If a person can go through a series of experiences of that nature and remain unaffected they have serious deep seated issues. As I recall you went through some hard times with your EX. That affected you didn't it? What I'm referring to is vaguely similar. The way you quoted the individual very much made it appear that it was your words. That 'appearance due to the way you structured that quote triggered the aforementioned questions. I misunderstood and apologize for any resulting offense that may have been taken as a result.


     To answer your questions. If you want to hear the 'real deal' listen to the released audio of the radio transmissions from FDNY on scene incident commanders. If you listen to those tapes you'll hear the context and what the 'chief' was responding to and ordering. Listen to all the public safety audio over that week released including the incident you 'highlight' above and then come back and voice your opinion about what 'really' happened. I'll tell you those a whole lot more real than some chuckle head on you-tube re-iterating what he thinks certain snippets of radio traffic meant. Think about this for a second. This guy owns-leases-whatever 10's of millions of dollars in real estate and he just watched some of the towers not so long ago go down. He's more than likely emotional and talking to a guy who is telling him he's going to lose everything. Do you really think he listened calmly and quietly and remembers every thing that was said? Do you really think he was 100% rational at that time?

     Additionally, consider the fact that the person calling him is in the middle of an major incident and probably has 100's of things going on at once he's trying to take care of and is responsible for. How does this guy know he wasn't referring to another issue entirely. Think about it. Do you really think this incident commander can freeze time, call a time out and walk away and everything stops so he can tell this guy he is going to lose booku bucks? NO. Hate to bring that little dose of reality but lets not be so narrow focused before we jump to conclusions. Notice on the little you-tube clip the chuckle head gives no timeline, no idea of the frame of the conversation in context to the events. He just does his bit of heresay and then they show a nice clip of a tower coming down. How convenient.

I do not blame the NYPD or NYFD and in fact say they were heroes. I believe most people in government are fine decent people. I do believe however that there was as David Schippers said, a "mote" of people in high level government that prevented him an a group of FBI agents he was represented from getting to those that could have done something. This "mote" is what I blame not the NYFD,,, Sheezz

Part of that 'mote' as you call it was the previous president Mr Clinton. (The only president to ever be impeached by the way). he had an opportunity to 'green light' the executive order and allow 'Hizmama Been Layin' to be assinated by Mr. Billy Waugh while on another assignment in Sudan. (You can read about this patriot in his Biography 'Hunting the Jackal"). The sitting NSC also decided not to act on that intel to bring 'Osama' in on the indictment that the Justice dept put out on him. SO let's go easy when pointing fingers quickly and be sure we get our facts straight.

Don't you think it's kind of strange that the second airliner crashed into the second tower and it was not being pursued by a jet dispatched by NORAD? Heck there were all kinds of media helicopters there and even one blimp. Were were the airforce jets??

It was not being pursued by NORAAD as they had no clear info from either ATC, or FAA, as to what was going on. Additionally they had orders to 'wait' and 'not engage' from the NCA-Pentagon. There were F-15 eagles on station over manhattan approx 8 mins after the second plane crashed into tower 2. this was done on the basis of the CINC-NORAD's authority. it took 8 minutes because the first pair of F15's were from the 102nd FW US AirNTL Guard Cape Cod. Additionally there were airborne elements of the 105th RQS that wer brought to flight line alert by their commander while waiting for further instructions from NORAD and the NYS govenor. they were about 10 mins flight time if the city. They have MH-60's Pavehawks and AFSOC pararescuemen.

 So things were being done as best they could within the limits of their authority on the military's side. Remember they were over US soil and in Civilian controlled airspace. A big difference from the ADIZ over intl waters.

No ECR844 I wasn't there. I flew past it on the 17th from JFK on my way to Russia and seen the smoke. That doesn't make me anymore of an expert on what happened that day then it does you. I wasn't with the USS Cole in 2000 or in Oklahoma City in 1995, Waco and the WTC for it's first bombing in 1993, Ruby Ridge in 1992, Lebanon in 1983, Dealy Plaza in 1963, the gulf of Tonkin in 1964, Pearl Harbor in 1941, the Riechstag fire in 1933 or the sinking the Lusitania in 1917. I do have an opinion about some of these events. Is that OK?   

Maxx

You do indeed have a right to your opinion. I guess thats the 'patriot' in me speaking out there. Now to answer your other question. yes, there is a huge difference from being at an incident like this, and flying over it  or watching on TV. They don't even remotely compare. Kindly, illustrate and show me where I stated I was an 'expert' on the subject. I was there and I'm sure I saw and were exposed to many of the happenings at that time that those watching on TV or flying by at 150kts just couldn't see or grasp. The difference between this case and the others you highlighted is that this happened in modern times and I was there. I don't believe you had the opportunity to possibly be present at the other examples you mentioned, did you? Additionally, if there is someone here who was present at those incidents than I would certainly give their opinion quite abit more consideration than that of someone who's say 10,000 miles away at the time it happened.

Food for thought,
ECR844 


Offline ECR844

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7142
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Searching for the word I will become
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: Resident
Re: The 9/11 Discussion.
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2007, 05:49:08 PM »
Since some of you think 'you-tube' is the end all be all...

I notice this didn't make it into your links:


Offline Maxx

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4164
  • Country: ge
  • Gender: Male
  • Trips: 5-10
Re: The 9/11 Discussion.
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2007, 05:57:43 PM »
But why are you showing me this, It says what I said: Controlled explosion and because of the time needed planned way before 9/11


I was backing you up and being nice.


Maxx

Offline BillyB

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2798
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 10-20
Re: The 9/11 Discussion.
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2007, 06:19:06 PM »
I also believe they blew up the towers, but for a different reason.

See how neatly it collapsed on itself. They must have worried it would topple over damaging even more skyscrapers.


markje, I guess you did not read the links I supplied. The photos showing the exoskeleton of the WTC laying 400 ft away from where it stood. A demo job would have done a lot cleaner demo. Building 7 got hit and one third of one face of the building was hit by the WTC and damaged. Firemen who were in that building said the fires were ferocious.

Maxx, how could you think some people in government are fine decent people? They are either part of the conspiracy or they don't have the balls to report one of the largest crimes in history or they're just plain stupid for not believing in the same stuff that you read. You wonder why the jet fighters weren't behind the second plane to stop it??? There are over 2000 civilian aircraft in the skies over the US at any given time. Who here is smart enough to figure out which planes are going to take a dump. If a pilot was able to follow the second plane, what is he to do? Shoot him down over NY City to guarantee civilian deaths on a mass scale? As President, would you make that call not knowing all the facts? After it was clear this was a terrorist act, all planes were ordered down. One day of not flying and the crippling effects of 9/11 has hurt the economy for what? So Bush can start the beginning of the end for the American people and run this country like Saddam?

CG, there are a whole lotta organizations and people who did their own research to find the truth and catch the real people involved. I'm sure there are generals police chiefs who are so patriotic that if their President murdered citizens, they would mobilize their divisions and police force and remove him from power...... unless all the military and police has agreed to murder citizens too.

Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich have a decent amount of following in America, why don't they open their mouths to expose Bush and Skull and Bones partner John Kerry to be murderers. Their silence make them just as guilty as Bush himself.

All Bush has to do is sneeze and the media is all over him. Do you think ABC, NBC, and CBS are staying silent on what Bush did on 9/11 because they're in on it too? Heck they couldn't stay silent on Bush's military record that was fabricated by Joe Blow to make Bush look bad right before an election. They'd love to catch him doing wrong.
Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776. If you want to stop the war in Ukraine, fix elections, stop medical tyranny and forced vaccinations, lower inflation and make America and the world a better place, get Trump back into power. The Democrats and Republicans have shown they can't do the job. They are good at robbing us and getting people killed in non stop wars.