MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....

[Markje]

I also found that strange, so I asked BuZa (foreign affairs) about this. They hold on to local spelling of city names.

Parijs
Berlijn
Moskou
Kiev.

More obfuscation:


We are talking what it is called in ENGLISH

The Dutch call it Kiev on their visa application site for Ukrainians and so does the GOVERNMENT Embassy webste
;

https://www.netherlandsandyou.nl/your-country-and-the-netherlands/ukraine/about-us/embassy-in-Kiev



Now before you suggest this is not an official website..

"Netherlandsandyou.nl is not the only government website that provides information for foreign nationals who want to travel, work, live or do business in the Netherlands. Netherlandsandyou.nl also helps you find relevant information on other government websites.

One example is Government.nl which explains national laws and regulations and provides information for people who already live, work or do business in the Netherlands. Netherlandsandyou.nl cannot guarantee that the content of these websites is correct or up to date."

They link TO each other ..

From Government.nl

"Today, the next of kin of the victims of the downing of flight MH17 were informed that the prosecution of 4 suspects is to begin. This decision by the Dutch Public Prosecutor’s Office (PPO) has the unanimous support of the investigation authorities of the other countries in the Joint Investigation Team (JIT): Australia, Belgium, Malaysia and Ukraine. The criminal investigation into the involvement of other persons continues. The JIT therefore put out another call for witnesses today."

So, is much for Wiz' suggestion that Malayasia thinks otherwise !

Both netherlandsandyou.nl and government.nl are not official dutch government websites. The official Dutch government website is (in dutch, how can it be anything else) rijksoverheid.nl Both websites are endorsed by the government and for foreigners they are good enough, however you are asking on principle what Dutchgove calls Kiev/Kiev, which means only rijksoverheid.nl can give you that answer.

Let me help you with the link: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/zoeken?trefwoord=kiev (100+ search results) and https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/zoeken?trefwoord=Kiev (5 search results)

Try telling a Dutchie again what its official government websites are please, you don' have enough egg on your face yet.

[Markje]

Markje,


2/ Why would you still be suggesting your secret service are at 'variance' with the JIC ?

Because I am quoting their own report directly? Its not my opinion, its theirs.

[msmoby]

This is what happpens when you are in a hole and keep digging

Both netherlandsandyou.nl and government.nl are not official dutch government websites. The official Dutch government website is (in dutch, how can it be anything else) rijksoverheid.nl Both websites are endorsed by the government and for foreigners they are good enough, however you are asking on principle what Dutchgove calls Kiev/Kiev, which means only rijksoverheid.nl can give you that answer.

Let me help you with the link: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/zoeken?trefwoord=kiev (100+ search results) and https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/zoeken?trefwoord=Kiev (5 search results)

Try telling a Dutchie again what its official government websites are please, you don' have enough egg on your face yet.

I most certainly am:

https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/

Go to the bottom of the home page ..

Next to 'Netherlands' - click on ENGLISH

The url is : https://www.government.nl/[/b]]https://www.government.nl/

So there's part 1 of your 'contention' busted

[msmoby]

Markje,

2/ Why would you still be suggesting your secret service are at 'variance' with the JIC ?

Because I am quoting their own report directly? Its not my opinion, its theirs.

Given, your confusion as to what is and is not a govt web site ? 

Let's deal with FACTS ...YOUR govt ( according to you ) is at variance with the secret service...  This would be big news in Russia....

[Markje]

This is what happpens when you are in a hole and keep digging

Both netherlandsandyou.nl and government.nl are not official dutch government websites. The official Dutch government website is (in dutch, how can it be anything else) rijksoverheid.nl Both websites are endorsed by the government and for foreigners they are good enough, however you are asking on principle what Dutchgove calls Kiev/Kiev, which means only rijksoverheid.nl can give you that answer.

Let me help you with the link: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/zoeken?trefwoord=kiev (100+ search results) and https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/zoeken?trefwoord=Kiev (5 search results)

Try telling a Dutchie again what its official government websites are please, you don' have enough egg on your face yet.

I most certainly am:

https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/

Go to the bottom of the home page ..

Next to 'Netherlands' - click on ENGLISH

The url is : https://www.government.nl/[/b]]https://www.government.nl/

So there's part 1 of your 'contention' busted

So you still can't read. I told you, government.nl is operated by the government, it is endorsed by the government but it -isnt- the official website, thats rijksoverheid.nl , now for many purposes like reading news about dutchgov, finding important information and procedures, contact addresses etc. etc. etc. it is all fine and dandy. But for YOUR purpose: Asking how dutchgov officially spells kiev, its not.

[Markje]

Given, your confusion as to what is and is not a govt web site ? 

Let's deal with FACTS ...YOUR govt ( according to you ) is at variance with the secret service...  This would be big news in Russia....

I am not confused my man, i know exactly how/when/where. Unlike you, whom cant seem to see the difference between casual questions and official questions and the purposes for which site fits where.

You're trying to smear the messenger is especially funny, as I see someone who just tripped, fell into a bunch of eggs with his face and then started digging and wouldn't stop.

Then he's crying about how right he is, but all I keep seeing is this dirty little man with egg on his face digging a hole for himself.

Why don't you try authenticating the PDF on the link i posted, if you know how to do that, you will immediatly see some obvious stuff.

[msmoby]

[OMG - the lengths some fols go to - rather than admit a howler

So you still can't read. I told you, government.nl is operated by the government, it is endorsed by the government but it -isnt- the official website, thats rijksoverheid.nl , now for many purposes like reading news about dutchgov, finding important information and procedures, contact addresses etc. etc. etc. it is all fine and dandy. But for YOUR purpose: Asking how dutchgov officially spells kiev, its not.

Oh - ple-ease

They are operated BY the govt and the site has a Dutch and other lang versions - they are the SAME site ..

[msmoby]

Yet more obfuscation

You're trying to smear the messenger is especially funny, as I see someone who just tripped, fell into a bunch of eggs with his face and then started digging and wouldn't stop.

Then he's crying about how right he is, but all I keep seeing is this dirty little man with egg on his face digging a hole for himself.

Why don't you try authenticating the PDF on the link i posted, if you know how to do that, you will immediatly see some obvious stuff.

Simple Question... Why - if you claim the security services differ from the JIC  - are the not resignations and  discussions in Parliament ?  Such 'differences' would be HUGE news in the USA / Russia ?

[redroo]

You're on your own Markje......wayyyyyyyy out on a limb,
your own Government has issued arrest warrants, why do you just keep following your wife's family blindly??
The evidence will either be proved or not to a western courts satisfaction! starting March next year,
and following where you get your sex blindly is never a great plan for an informed man, only a henpecked one.
I intend to attend the court and hear the evidence myself, see you in March.

[Markje]

You're on your own Markje......wayyyyyyyy out on a limb,
your own Government has issued arrest warrants, why do you just keep following your wife's family blindly??
The evidence will either be proved or not to a western courts satisfaction! starting March next year,
and following where you get your sex blindly is never a great plan for an informed man, only a henpecked one.
I intend to attend the court and hear the evidence myself, see you in March.

I don't follow my wife/family. She hasn't got any opinion on this topic as the truth is far too murky.

some things that stood out for me though:
- the MIVD (Dutch intelligence) flat out denied the rebels had a buk before 16 July (so if they had the buk that shot down MH17, it must have been delivered that day, or 1 day before).
- the MIVD said klimkin was lying when he said a sukhoi was shot down at a high altitude 3 days before (otherwise a NOTAM from schiphol would have followed for KLM on behalf of the MIVD and allied partners like Malaysia)
- The Dutch government has NOT requested an extradition from Russia or Ukraine of the suspects. This was intentional as russia doesn't extradite their own according to their constitution (same for ukraine). (comments Markje: But you can at least ask, now Russia can throw this in our face, we never asked).
- Ukraine was a suspect but was allowed to join the JIT anyway and got far-reaching provisions to throw out any evidence or results they didnt like.
- The JIT practically accused Russia from day 1, despite everyone with a brain that says this was a horrible accident and not a state-actor.
- The Public prosecutor in the Netherlands has started a case for 'murder' . which is a VERY high bar in the Netherlands, they will never be able to prove that beyond reasonable doubt. (Manslaughter, wrongful death etc. etc. yes yes yes, but Murder ... thats a big no)

Mark.
PS: If possible, i'd look forward to a minimeet.
PPS: make sure you get a seat early planning, this will be a busy court-date. Thats also why already a huge courtroom in Schiphol was picked as the venue (plus its high-security court).

[Contrarian]

You're on your own Markje......wayyyyyyyy out on a limb,
your own Government has issued arrest warrants, why do you just keep following your wife's family blindly??
The evidence will either be proved or not to a western courts satisfaction! starting March next year,
and following where you get your sex blindly is never a great plan for an informed man, only a henpecked one.
I intend to attend the court and hear the evidence myself, see you in March.

I don't follow my wife/family. She hasn't got any opinion on this topic as the truth is far too murky.

some things that stood out for me though:
- the MIVD (Dutch intelligence) flat out denied the rebels had a buk before 16 July (so if they had the buk that shot down MH17, it must have been delivered that day, or 1 day before).
- the MIVD said klimkin was lying when he said a sukhoi was shot down at a high altitude 3 days before (otherwise a NOTAM from schiphol would have followed for KLM on behalf of the MIVD and allied partners like Malaysia)
- The Dutch government has NOT requested an extradition from Russia or Ukraine of the suspects. This was intentional as russia doesn't extradite their own according to their constitution (same for ukraine). (comments Markje: But you can at least ask, now Russia can throw this in our face, we never asked).
- Ukraine was a suspect but was allowed to join the JIT anyway and got far-reaching provisions to throw out any evidence or results they didnt like.
- The JIT practically accused Russia from day 1, despite everyone with a brain that says this was a horrible accident and not a state-actor.
- The Public prosecutor in the Netherlands has started a case for 'murder' . which is a VERY high bar in the Netherlands, they will never be able to prove that beyond reasonable doubt. (Manslaughter, wrongful death etc. etc. yes yes yes, but Murder ... thats a big no)

Mark.
PS: If possible, i'd look forward to a minimeet.
PPS: make sure you get a seat early planning, this will be a busy court-date. Thats also why already a huge courtroom in Schiphol was picked as the venue (plus its high-security court).

I agree with you big time on the part I highlighted. IIRC didn’t they already say it was done by accident?

Doesn’t murder require intent to murder? Seems they’ve already botched their case.

[Markje]

Doesn’t murder require intent to murder? Seems they’ve already botched their case.

No, because they think the suspects wont show up for the case. That means a default-judgement win for the prosecutor.

Bang, guilty of murder. (veroordeeld bij verstek)

come to think of it, the funniest and safest for those Russian guys would be to *show up* and Netherlands gets tons of egg on their faces.
Wouldn't even need a lawyer , just say : prove we had the intent to murder any specific person on that plane, general won't do (manslaughter would, but they're charged with murder which is very specific in its victims. You must have a premeditated plan to murder a named victim).

There's another gotcha, the Dutch prosecutor will have to prove all reasonable measures were taken that the indictment (sp?) reached their suspects. So asking the Russian state is enough if Russia promises to deliver the messages. If not, they will have to track them down and hand-deliver the indictment, or post it in at least 3 major Russian newspapers in Russian.

I'm confident however that part is taken care of, as 3 of 4 suspects already reacted on news-inquiries of this court case.

Mark

[msmoby]

Markje,

You are very much in "methinks I doth protect . too much mode"..

The case will; go ahead, the evidence will be heard and where will your secret service be ?

 

[Markje]

Markje,

You are very much in "methinks I doth protect . too much mode"..

The case will; go ahead, the evidence will be heard and where will your secret service be ?

The case will proceed, but obviously you know nothing of dutch law. If none of the suspects show up, it will be a summary-judgement of guilty without hearing the evidence, a boring 10-minute display of Dutch law.

[msmoby]

Markje I'm not sure you're correct

Plus I tried to check up on government.nl - which you STILL tell us is "not a Dutch govt site" and was asked to fill in a questionnaire on riksoverheid.nl ...   

[redroo]

I hope you're wrong, and the full evidence they have is laid out in open court.
I happen to agree with you that "Murder" charges seem impossible were as "Manslaughter" were logical.
Maybe it is designed to fail  time will tell, as they are saying there are more arrest warrants to follow.

[Markje]

I hope you're wrong, and the full evidence they have is laid out in open court.
I happen to agree with you that "Murder" charges seem impossible were as "Manslaughter" were logical.
Maybe it is designed to fail  time will tell, as they are saying there are more arrest warrants to follow.

since this is a high profile case i also hope they will proceed as if suspects are there.

[Contrarian]

Mark or any others who can read Dutch, any update on this? It was just featured on 60 Minutes, a CBS show in the USA.


Quote
“Netherlands (UPDATED) – International investigators on Wednesday, June 19, charged 3 Russians and a Ukrainian with murder over the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, the first people to face justice over the tragedy 5 years ago in which 298 people were killed.

The Dutch-led team said the 4 men with military and intelligence links would go on trial in March next year, although they are likely to be tried in absentia in the Netherlands as neither Russia nor Ukraine extradites their nationals”.


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mh17-crash-murder-charges-russian-ukrainian-nationals-malaysia-airlines-flight-17/

[Markje]

Mark or any others who can read Dutch, any update on this? It was just featured on 60 Minutes, a CBS show in the USA.


Quote
“Netherlands (UPDATED) – International investigators on Wednesday, June 19, charged 3 Russians and a Ukrainian with murder over the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, the first people to face justice over the tragedy 5 years ago in which 298 people were killed.

The Dutch-led team said the 4 men with military and intelligence links would go on trial in March next year, although they are likely to be tried in absentia in the Netherlands as neither Russia nor Ukraine extradites their nationals”.


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mh17-crash-murder-charges-russian-ukrainian-nationals-malaysia-airlines-flight-17/

Well, of course I was correct on the replies above and moby was not.

Meanwhile:
- Dutch law was amended on 3 important points to allow this case to proceed. 9 March will be the "director" , meaning the court will on this date decide how much time all speakers get, which evidence is admitted and what witnesses and experts are allowed.

Important for internationals changed dutch laws:
- Case can proceed without defendents being present (see above on why this is important reply #1138)
- Case will be annotated and in some proceedings even fully in English to allow international families of casualties to be heard and be present. (Normally cases are 100% dutch only)

Meanwhile, for at least 1 defendent (Oleg Poelatov) will be represented by lawyers in this case. A Dutch lawfirm (Lawyers: Boudewijn van Eijck and Sabine ten Doesschate) based in Rotterdam confirmed taking him as a client, the lawfirm will be closely cooperating with a Russian Lawfirm (Lawyer:Elena Koetina) to ensure all rights and privileges in both law spheres are presented. :

https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/nederland/artikel/5008531/nederlandse-advocaten-verdachte-mh17
https://tass.ru/proisshestviya/7672873

I am also sure the defendents lawyers will argue in court that the law had to be changed for this case to proceed and to throw out the entire case. I'm also sure that this will not happen.

[msmoby]

Lots of words, Markje


However, The JIT report simply blows your posts out of the water...


Why persist in trying to 'convince' folk otherwise?

[Contrarian]

Lots of words, Markje


However, The JIT report simply blows your posts out of the water...


Why persist in trying to 'convince' folk otherwise?

Why do you persist in posting rubbish?

One mans trash is another’s treasure.

Quite frankly I’d rather read Mark than you any day.

[Markje]

Lots of words, Markje


However, The JIT report simply blows your posts out of the water...


Why persist in trying to 'convince' folk otherwise?

You have no notion of Dutch law or the steps taken. So let me clarify a few players here:

MIVD : Dutch secret service (Military), they are comparable to the NSA
AIVD : Dutch Secret service (Civilian), they are comparable to the NSA

OVV : Dutch board for road/aviation/water saftey. They investigated the technical cause of the crash. They should not interfere with the legal process if its a criminal case, but they did anyway.

JIT: A private organisation formed to gather evidence and witness statements that should help the OM prosecute the case.
OM: Public defenders, that represent the public when trying criminal cases.

Right now, the JIT's case is finished. They have done their job and the case has been handed to the OM, which decided to start a prosecution based on their findings. I'm sure that defense will rather bring in the report of the AIVD/MIVD when trying to prove their clients innocence.

Thats how a court-case works. you have defendents and you have the OM. Both sides of the same case. The judge will eventually find anyone guilty or not. (my guess: NOT, considering they went for murder instead of manslaughter).

Mark.

[msmoby]

Lots of words, Markje


However, The JIT report simply blows your posts out of the water...


Why persist in trying to 'convince' folk otherwise?

[Markje]

reminder: Monday the criminal court trial of MH17 starts. Not much interesting, just a procedural day.

[redroo]

AAP:

"Murder trials of four men over downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 to begin this week
The trials of three Russians and a Ukrainian charged with murder over the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 will begin this week.

MH17: Questions linger five years on

Five years after Malaysia Airlines flight 17 was shot down over Ukraine, key suspects have been charged and critical questions remain.
A landmark trial is set to begin in the Netherlands this week over the horrific downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 more than five years ago.

The Boeing 777 was en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur on July 17, 2014 when it was shot down with a Russian surface-to-air missile while flying over Ukraine.

All 298 passengers and crew on board were killed, with 38 Australians among those to perish.

Four men – three Russians and a Ukrainian – remain on the run but their trials will proceed on Monday in the Dutch capital in their absence.

Sergey Dubinsky, Oleg Pulatov and Igor Girkin held senior roles in the pro-Russia militia in Ukraine at the time and are accused of colluding to shoot down the plane. Leonid Kharchenko, a Ukrainian national, was part of the separatist group’s military intelligence unit.

“The court will conduct its work independently,” Mark Rutte, Prime Minister of The Netherlands told reports at The Hague overnight.

“This is a very important step toward uncovering the truth and seeking justice for the victims and their survivors.”

Mr Rutte said the investigation into the involvement of other individuals “is ongoing”.

RELATED: Texts between soldier and lover expose clues in MH17 downing investigation


The trials come after an exhaustive five-year investigation drawing on the efforts of several countries, including Belgium, the Netherlands, Ukraine, Malaysia and Australia.

In a joint statement today, Prime Minister Scott Morrison and Foreign Minister Marise Payne welcomed the start of the trials.

“The trials are a significant step towards achieving justice and accountability for the 298 victims of MH17, including 38 people who called Australia home,” the statement read.

“Prosecuting these crimes in an open and independent court sends a powerful message that alleged perpetrators will face justice.

“While nothing can bring back those who lost their lives, Australia will continue to fight for justice for the victims of MH17 and their families.”

Prime Minister Scott Morrison speaks at a press conference with Netherlands Prime Minister Mark Rutte in Sydney last October. Picture: Getty Images

The Australian Government continued to support Dutch prosectors and was funding travel for the families of victims to the Netherlands to be present for hearings.

Proceedings will also be livestreamed and translated.

Mr Morrison and Ms Payne said the prosecutions were “separate but complementary” to continuing talks over Russia’s involvement in the downing of MH17.

The Netherlands and Australia attributed state responsibility to Russia in mid-2018. Russia continues to deny any involvement.

However, the investigation – the largest in Dutch history – uncovered intercepts that showed two of the suspects were in contact with one of Vladimir Putin’s senior aides.

“The Australian Government remains steadfast in its commitment to pursuing justice and accountability for MH17,” Mr Morrison and Ms Payne’s statement concluded.