MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....

[msmoby]

This is classic andrewfi wordy bollox

The information flow and the manner in which the Russians have managed the flow from their side tells us that they are concealing elements from us.

The info flow from Russia re MH-17 was " The 'rebels' have hit another AN-26 of the Ukrainians over Torez" and Girkin was reminding us who controlled the skies, now ..  By Monday the Russian MoD ere telling us it was 2 SU-25's which are ground support craft and NO amount of modification can get them up high enough - esp with armaments .. flying one UNARMED - to 'prove' otherwise - was just a pointless piece of deception ..


The info flow from Russia on Monday was "'Twas the Israelis what donnit "...

Simples ... 

[Wiz]

If Putin wanted to take over the whole of Ukraine he would have done it in the space of a week but you forget both Nations are from Slavic heritage.

The US spend $5 Billion dollars to organise the pouch, according to Victoria Nulan

WHY THEN YOU ARE SO ANNOYED that Russia is sending few "volunteers" to help the Independent Dombas area? You have been doing the same illegally in Syria and elsewhere..... and you don't like Putin playing the same tune? .... How he dares?

Historically for your info, Ukraine always had Governments, based in Donbass Politicians and Not From Western Ukraine and Lvov.

 The fact remains: Why the JIT has accepted the Ukraine, the prime suspect culprit and not the Russians too?

Why the JIT has not issued the final verdict..... if it have all the necessary Info.

Could it be the USA don't like the truth and continue playing the fake news.......It's all Russia's fault? Is it because you can't stomach the Fact that you lost Crimea?

Ah sorry, I forgot that was not part of the CIA plan when the US took over Ukraine, and imposed its Zionist Monkeys to run the country.

Finally May I ask you: How many years Ukraine was part of the USSR?

Do you think that all army and secret service ties between Mother Russia and Kiev, after Ukraine became independent, in 1991, had or have completely destroyed, even today?

I stripped the earlier posts for clarities sake.

If Putin wanted to run over Ukraine, I doubt it would be as easy as you think. As it stands today they have a limited control of the Donbass. If you compare these away games to Transdniester or South Ossetia, this one is going rather poorly.

As for the leading politicians coming from the Donbass, you are wrong; L. Kravchuk came from close to Rivne, L. Kuchma came from Chernihiv as I recall, V. Yushchenko (the guy some one the Kremlin? tried to poison) is from Sumy, V Yanukovych is from the Donbass region, P. Porchenko is from the Odessa region.

How long was Ukraine part of USSR? That could be debated but lets assume that by 1919 Russia had subgatated the Ukraine people and this ended in 1991, this is some 72 years, but there was continued resistance against the Kremlin rule until past the 2nd World War in regions in the West.

Anything else I can help you with (gardening excluded)? 

I am afraid; despite your certain number of Visits to Kiev you know, almost, nothing about the history of Ukraine. Google search is your good friend, but it’s different from what the Ukrainians will tell you, if you had the chance to discuss Ukrainian History.

In your effort to rewrite the Ukrainian Political History you told us about the ex front names. I suggest you ask which politicians had the power on all these Governments and there was not one from Lvov.

I am sorry but it’s very tiring to try and make a normal conversation with you because of your tendency to ignore questions and insert irrelevant comments

I am afraid you have no idea about Russia and Ukrainian history. I suggest you educate your self before getting involved again or stick to your Trolling Shift.

I have a much prettier one that your self…..open another bottle.


 

[msmoby]

I am afraid you have no idea about Russia and Ukrainian history.

,,and you can post this and not realise how hilarious it is to read - given your selective history and dubious sources ? 

[Manny]

Another example of the Russian Ministry of Defence making it up

On Monday 'Israel' shot down a Russian Recon plane - according to THEM


By Tuesday, we all knew it was SYRIA

The list of changing the story to suit grows and grows

As it happens, my pal Martin did the RT PTC on this, so er...no. 

[rosco]

Another example of the Russian Ministry of Defence making it up

On Monday 'Israel' shot down a Russian Recon plane - according to THEM


By Tuesday, we all knew it was SYRIA

The list of changing the story to suit grows and grows

As it happens, my pal Martin did the RT PTC on this, so er...no. 

Good link Manny and food for thought.

Moby? 

[Wiz]

I am afraid you have no idea about Russia and Ukrainian history.

,,and you can post this and not realise how hilarious it is to read - given your selective history and dubious sources ?

But I take advantage of your experience and sources:

When you've been a Dad, step-Dad, divorced, killed a fellow human, spend a few nights in the cells - having been accused of something you ain't done and then 'breaching bail' and are told you haven't encountered the circumstances / characters than one HAS by strange folks who know one's life 'better'  ... one merely smiles knowingly to one's-self ..

Your insightful and knowledgeable experience in everything is beyond any doubt.

No one over here can match such an excellent life of experiences!

 

[msmoby]

So, RT didn't push me a link to 'Israel shot down a Russian recon plane with 14 personnel on board?'!'


What 'Moby' thinks of RT's propaganda, censorship  and bollox about MH17 is well known....

[Manny]

Another example of the Russian Ministry of Defence making it up

On Monday 'Israel' shot down a Russian Recon plane - according to THEM


By Tuesday, we all knew it was SYRIA

The list of changing the story to suit grows and grows

As it happens, my pal Martin did the RT PTC on this, so er...no. 

Good link Manny and food for thought.

Moby? 

Moby was "pushed" this now you see. 

[msmoby]

What? No smart 'riposte' ?

FACT is the Russian MoD and RT  'announcements' as to fact' have been demonstrably farcical - from MH-17 to the statement that Israel shot down the RU recon plane .. ever changing - obfuscation and deflection in the face of evidence - in the former case - from Russians kindly proving a BUK from Russia ended up in Ukraine..

[Wiz]

Another example of the Russian Ministry of Defence making it up

On Monday 'Israel' shot down a Russian Recon plane - according to THEM


By Tuesday, we all knew it was SYRIA

The list of changing the story to suit grows and grows

As it happens, my pal Martin did the RT PTC on this, so er...no. 

Good link Manny and food for thought.

Moby? 

Moby was "pushed" this now you see. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of-879DthAo

Some how I don't think he will change his style and will comeback with a new diversion or something different!

"The Leopard never change its spots"

 

[andrewfi]

Moby, there's this thing called 'learning'. Most people in the world use it as a way of getting to understand what happens in the world. Try it, it works. And, of course, will help you to understand the answer to your own question.

My guess is that you already know how learning works and simply prefer dishonesty and that you project your own shortcomings upon others - don't worry, that's common in humans. Problem is that when one has the personality profile that you have the stuff you project onto others says nothing good about one.

[AvHdB]

Andrew, While there is a large dislike of Moby, he has been consistent since about post 1050 regarding this matter.

The greater problem and this is not Moby's fault is so much (mis)information come out in snippets. This becomes a partial post that is like the missing puzzle piece. Av

[rosco]

Andrew, While there is a large dislike of Moby, he has been consistent since about post 1050 regarding this matter.

The greater problem and this is not Moby's fault is so much (mis)information come out in snippets. This becomes a partial post that is like the missing puzzle piece. Av

Indeed but misinformation from all sides.

Moby has already chosen a side to support and will use anything he can find to justify his position. This isn't unique to MH17 but every debate he has. We're probably all a little bias when we begin to debate, starting off from a fairly comfortable position, that you believe to be true.

Moby's biggest failure as a human (big shout I know) is that he can't then change his position, as new information comes to light. He's like a stubborn low informed footy fan, still singing the same old songs and stuck supporting a pile of shite through thick and thin. I'm certainly not perfect (I once made a mistake back in 1997) and do have strong opinions yet I'm comfortable enough in changing them when presented with a good case.

Russia isn't innocent in most things front page and like all super powers and prominent countries, they'll try to manipulate either in their favour or at least not in their enemies favour. You name it Ukraine, MH17, Syria, WADA, Skripals etc etc etc.....they'll have some part to play in it. But how much is the question?

A clever person turns his neck when the mob are pointing their finger and looks the other way to consider an alternative. Moby should ask himself, who gains from Russia taking the blame? It's a fairly balanced and logical question to ask yet people like Moby don't even consider it or entertain it when asked. They're like liberals shouting nazi at a well reasoned argument, debunking wishy washy views but in this case Moby and our new friend Andrey (the Navalny lover who lives with his mum) hurl accusations of being a Putanist or a bot, simply to deflect reality!

He's not changed his opinion on the matter since post 1050 but he's not even considered an alternative.

[AvHdB]

Andrew, While there is a large dislike of Moby, he has been consistent since about post 1050 regarding this matter.

The greater problem and this is not Moby's fault is so much (mis)information come out in snippets. This becomes a partial post that is like the missing puzzle piece. Av

Indeed but misinformation from all sides.

Moby has already chosen a side to support and will use anything he can find to justify his position. This isn't unique to MH17 but every debate he has. We're probably all a little bias when we begin to debate, starting off from a fairly comfortable position, that you believe to be true.

Moby's biggest failure as a human (big shout I know) is that he can't then change his position, as new information comes to light. He's like a stubborn low informed footy fan, still singing the same old songs and stuck supporting a pile of shite through thick and thin. I'm certainly not perfect (I once made a mistake back in 1997) and do have strong opinions yet I'm comfortable enough in changing them when presented with a good case.

Russia isn't innocent in most things front page and like all super powers and prominent countries, they'll try to manipulate either in their favour or at least not in their enemies favour. You name it Ukraine, MH17, Syria, WADA, Skripals etc etc etc.....they'll have some part to play in it. But how much is the question?

A clever person turns his neck when the mob are pointing their finger and looks the other way to consider an alternative. Moby should ask himself, who gains from Russia taking the blame? It's a fairly balanced and logical question to ask yet people like Moby don't even consider it or entertain it when asked. They're like liberals shouting nazi at a well reasoned argument, debunking wishy washy views but in this case Moby and our new friend Andrey (the Navalny lover who lives with his mum) hurl accusations of being a Putanist or a bot, simply to deflect reality!

He's not changed his opinion on the matter since post 1050 but he's not even considered an alternative.

Moby, wants to argue the size of an ants dick*. I tend to ignore his posts but mostly it is inability such as with Brexit to consider the other side and understand the will of the people. Throw a couple wishy washy politicians and you have the perfect breeding ground for people like Moby.



*I understand ants do not have dicks. 

[Dogsoldier]

Andrew, While there is a large dislike of Moby, he has been consistent since about post 1050 regarding this matter.

The greater problem and this is not Moby's fault is so much (mis)information come out in snippets. This becomes a partial post that is like the missing puzzle piece. Av

Indeed but misinformation from all sides.

Moby has already chosen a side to support and will use anything he can find to justify his position. This isn't unique to MH17 but every debate he has. We're probably all a little bias when we begin to debate, starting off from a fairly comfortable position, that you believe to be true.

Moby's biggest failure as a human (big shout I know) is that he can't then change his position, as new information comes to light. He's like a stubborn low informed footy fan, still singing the same old songs and stuck supporting a pile of shite through thick and thin. I'm certainly not perfect (I once made a mistake back in 1997) and do have strong opinions yet I'm comfortable enough in changing them when presented with a good case.

Russia isn't innocent in most things front page and like all super powers and prominent countries, they'll try to manipulate either in their favour or at least not in their enemies favour. You name it Ukraine, MH17, Syria, WADA, Skripals etc etc etc.....they'll have some part to play in it. But how much is the question?

A clever person turns his neck when the mob are pointing their finger and looks the other way to consider an alternative. Moby should ask himself, who gains from Russia taking the blame? It's a fairly balanced and logical question to ask yet people like Moby don't even consider it or entertain it when asked. They're like liberals shouting nazi at a well reasoned argument, debunking wishy washy views but in this case Moby and our new friend Andrey (the Navalny lover who lives with his mum) hurl accusations of being a Putanist or a bot, simply to deflect reality!

He's not changed his opinion on the matter since post 1050 but he's not even considered an alternative.

Moby, wants to argue the size of an ants dick*. I tend to ignore his posts but mostly it is inability such as with Brexit to consider the other side and understand the will of the people. Throw a couple wishy washy politicians and you have the perfect breeding ground for people like Moby.



*I understand ants do not have dicks.  [/b]

Have you checked?

[Contrarian]

Andrew, While there is a large dislike of Moby, he has been consistent since about post 1050 regarding this matter.

The greater problem and this is not Moby's fault is so much (mis)information come out in snippets. This becomes a partial post that is like the missing puzzle piece. Av

Indeed but misinformation from all sides.

Moby has already chosen a side to support and will use anything he can find to justify his position. This isn't unique to MH17 but every debate he has. We're probably all a little bias when we begin to debate, starting off from a fairly comfortable position, that you believe to be true.

Moby's biggest failure as a human (big shout I know) is that he can't then change his position, as new information comes to light. He's like a stubborn low informed footy fan, still singing the same old songs and stuck supporting a pile of shite through thick and thin. I'm certainly not perfect (I once made a mistake back in 1997) and do have strong opinions yet I'm comfortable enough in changing them when presented with a good case.

Russia isn't innocent in most things front page and like all super powers and prominent countries, they'll try to manipulate either in their favour or at least not in their enemies favour. You name it Ukraine, MH17, Syria, WADA, Skripals etc etc etc.....they'll have some part to play in it. But how much is the question?

A clever person turns his neck when the mob are pointing their finger and looks the other way to consider an alternative. Moby should ask himself, who gains from Russia taking the blame? It's a fairly balanced and logical question to ask yet people like Moby don't even consider it or entertain it when asked. They're like liberals shouting nazi at a well reasoned argument, debunking wishy washy views but in this case Moby and our new friend Andrey (the Navalny lover who lives with his mum) hurl accusations of being a Putanist or a bot, simply to deflect reality!

He's not changed his opinion on the matter since post 1050 but he's not even considered an alternative.

Moby, wants to argue the size of an ants dick*. I tend to ignore his posts but mostly it is inability such as with Brexit to consider the other side and understand the will of the people. Throw a couple wishy washy politicians and you have the perfect breeding ground for people like Moby.


*I understand ants do not have dicks. 

Did you try to sleep with a male ant? Was it good for you? 

[rosco]

Andrew, While there is a large dislike of Moby, he has been consistent since about post 1050 regarding this matter.

The greater problem and this is not Moby's fault is so much (mis)information come out in snippets. This becomes a partial post that is like the missing puzzle piece. Av

Indeed but misinformation from all sides.

Moby has already chosen a side to support and will use anything he can find to justify his position. This isn't unique to MH17 but every debate he has. We're probably all a little bias when we begin to debate, starting off from a fairly comfortable position, that you believe to be true.

Moby's biggest failure as a human (big shout I know) is that he can't then change his position, as new information comes to light. He's like a stubborn low informed footy fan, still singing the same old songs and stuck supporting a pile of shite through thick and thin. I'm certainly not perfect (I once made a mistake back in 1997) and do have strong opinions yet I'm comfortable enough in changing them when presented with a good case.

Russia isn't innocent in most things front page and like all super powers and prominent countries, they'll try to manipulate either in their favour or at least not in their enemies favour. You name it Ukraine, MH17, Syria, WADA, Skripals etc etc etc.....they'll have some part to play in it. But how much is the question?

A clever person turns his neck when the mob are pointing their finger and looks the other way to consider an alternative. Moby should ask himself, who gains from Russia taking the blame? It's a fairly balanced and logical question to ask yet people like Moby don't even consider it or entertain it when asked. They're like liberals shouting nazi at a well reasoned argument, debunking wishy washy views but in this case Moby and our new friend Andrey (the Navalny lover who lives with his mum) hurl accusations of being a Putanist or a bot, simply to deflect reality!

He's not changed his opinion on the matter since post 1050 but he's not even considered an alternative.

Moby, wants to argue the size of an ants dick*. I tend to ignore his posts but mostly it is inability such as with Brexit to consider the other side and understand the will of the people. Throw a couple wishy washy politicians and you have the perfect breeding ground for people like Moby.



*I understand ants do not have dicks.  [/b]

Have you checked?

I feel the need to goggle......

[AvHdB]

Andrew, While there is a large dislike of Moby, he has been consistent since about post 1050 regarding this matter.

The greater problem and this is not Moby's fault is so much (mis)information come out in snippets. This becomes a partial post that is like the missing puzzle piece. Av

Indeed but misinformation from all sides.

Moby has already chosen a side to support and will use anything he can find to justify his position. This isn't unique to MH17 but every debate he has. We're probably all a little bias when we begin to debate, starting off from a fairly comfortable position, that you believe to be true.

Moby's biggest failure as a human (big shout I know) is that he can't then change his position, as new information comes to light. He's like a stubborn low informed footy fan, still singing the same old songs and stuck supporting a pile of shite through thick and thin. I'm certainly not perfect (I once made a mistake back in 1997) and do have strong opinions yet I'm comfortable enough in changing them when presented with a good case.

Russia isn't innocent in most things front page and like all super powers and prominent countries, they'll try to manipulate either in their favour or at least not in their enemies favour. You name it Ukraine, MH17, Syria, WADA, Skripals etc etc etc.....they'll have some part to play in it. But how much is the question?

A clever person turns his neck when the mob are pointing their finger and looks the other way to consider an alternative. Moby should ask himself, who gains from Russia taking the blame? It's a fairly balanced and logical question to ask yet people like Moby don't even consider it or entertain it when asked. They're like liberals shouting nazi at a well reasoned argument, debunking wishy washy views but in this case Moby and our new friend Andrey (the Navalny lover who lives with his mum) hurl accusations of being a Putanist or a bot, simply to deflect reality!

He's not changed his opinion on the matter since post 1050 but he's not even considered an alternative.

Moby, wants to argue the size of an ants dick*. I tend to ignore his posts but mostly it is inability such as with Brexit to consider the other side and understand the will of the people. Throw a couple wishy washy politicians and you have the perfect breeding ground for people like Moby.


*I understand ants do not have dicks. 

Did you try to sleep with a male ant? Was it good for you? 

Wait to one or a hundred bite you in the ass, than you will know what they have.

[Contrarian]

Andrew, While there is a large dislike of Moby, he has been consistent since about post 1050 regarding this matter.

The greater problem and this is not Moby's fault is so much (mis)information come out in snippets. This becomes a partial post that is like the missing puzzle piece. Av

Indeed but misinformation from all sides.

Moby has already chosen a side to support and will use anything he can find to justify his position. This isn't unique to MH17 but every debate he has. We're probably all a little bias when we begin to debate, starting off from a fairly comfortable position, that you believe to be true.

Moby's biggest failure as a human (big shout I know) is that he can't then change his position, as new information comes to light. He's like a stubborn low informed footy fan, still singing the same old songs and stuck supporting a pile of shite through thick and thin. I'm certainly not perfect (I once made a mistake back in 1997) and do have strong opinions yet I'm comfortable enough in changing them when presented with a good case.

Russia isn't innocent in most things front page and like all super powers and prominent countries, they'll try to manipulate either in their favour or at least not in their enemies favour. You name it Ukraine, MH17, Syria, WADA, Skripals etc etc etc.....they'll have some part to play in it. But how much is the question?

A clever person turns his neck when the mob are pointing their finger and looks the other way to consider an alternative. Moby should ask himself, who gains from Russia taking the blame? It's a fairly balanced and logical question to ask yet people like Moby don't even consider it or entertain it when asked. They're like liberals shouting nazi at a well reasoned argument, debunking wishy washy views but in this case Moby and our new friend Andrey (the Navalny lover who lives with his mum) hurl accusations of being a Putanist or a bot, simply to deflect reality!

He's not changed his opinion on the matter since post 1050 but he's not even considered an alternative.

Moby, wants to argue the size of an ants dick*. I tend to ignore his posts but mostly it is inability such as with Brexit to consider the other side and understand the will of the people. Throw a couple wishy washy politicians and you have the perfect breeding ground for people like Moby.


*I understand ants do not have dicks. 

Did you try to sleep with a male ant? Was it good for you? 

Wait to one or a hundred bite you in the ass, than you will know what they have.

I’m guessing Moby’s probably the expert on ants, after all he’s the expert on everything else. 

[andrewfi]

AvHdB, sorry for not having been understood. I was referring to moby's 'point' about the changing story from Russia about the shooting down of the IL-20. Of course, the story changed as we found out new stuff. The Russians learned what was happening, they have run press conferences updating as new information became available.

What moby was doing is a little thing called 'projection' is a process whereby a person ascribes to others actions and motivations that belong to the person themself. In this case, because moby is dishonest, he makes up a story and then sticks with it. Because the story is a work of fiction there is no need to update it and, thus, for him, consistency is important.

More normal humans do not set out with a made up story and then seek evidence to justify it. Normal humans observe what is happening around them and update their knowledge as they learn. Thus, in a developing situation such as the IL-20 tragedy, it is quite normal for the narrative to be updated. Of course much the same can be seen in the war crime in the skies over Donbass. Of course, the story changes as more knowledge becomes available. The work that went into finding the documentation for the weapons used by the Ukraine army must have been immense given the intervening years and disruption caused by the end of the USSR. Had the work not been carried out then the update would not have occurred.

[shakespear]

It seems most likely to me that a ill-trained Ukrainian militiaman who was
years past his regular Soviet army training on this particular weapons system
either miss-identified the passenger plane as a Russian warplane and fired
the missile or accidentally triggered the weapon by mistake.

The fog of war often results in mistakes like this.     

[SL0413]

It seems most likely to me that a ill-trained Ukrainian militiaman who was
years past his regular Soviet army training on this particular weapons system
either miss-identified the passenger plane as a Russian warplane and fired
the missile or accidentally triggered the weapon by mistake.

The fog of war often results in mistakes like this.     

Hmm, seemed to ignore or skip earlier posts. 

More likely a rebel or russian "advisor" purposefully fired the missile at an Ukrainian transport plane, an Antonov or Ilyushin, like his buddy did on 14-Jul-18.  Only this time, even though the plane was on a similar flight path, west-to-east, it was a civilian passenger plane...  Fog of war and all that.

During the conflict the rebels downed 21 Ukrainian aircraft with a variety of surface to air missiles, including BUK missile launchers.  Ukrainian forces did not shoot down any and had no reason to - the rebels had not fielded any aircraft during the conflict.

[andrewfi]

SLO413, can you help me out with a link to an authoritative source that I can read with evidence that the people in Donbas shot down planes other than mh17 using a BUK system. It is well recorded that they used manpad systems such as the Strela and Igla but I have not seen any sensible suggestions that they used a BUK system apart from claims about Mh17.

Thanks.

[Contrarian]

SLO413, can you help me out with a link to an authoritative source that I can read with evidence that the people in Donbas shot down planes other than mh17 using a BUK system. It is well recorded that they used manpad systems such as the Strela and Igla but I have not seen any sensible suggestions that they used a BUK system apart from claims about Mh17.

Thanks.

Igor Strelkov himself bragged about them shooting down MH17 on social media when it happened, oopsies! 

Then they realized they shot down a civilian aircraft and all these new alternate-realty explanations come about.....


"The so-called defense minister of the People's Republic of Donetsk ... actually posted a bragging social media posting of having shot down a military transport. And then when it became apparent it was civilian, they pulled it down from social media." 


https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/jul/20/john-kerry/kerry-ukrainian-separatist-bragged-social-media/

[andrewfi]

That's not what was being claimed above.

However, if you'd been here at the time you'd know much more than you do about claims attributed to 'Strelkov' and a lot more about what was said at the time about the weapon that Strelkov was supposed to have been referring to. As that was not what our friend SLO was referring to I am happy to let you use this site's search tool to find the relevant threads and posts.