The World's #1 Russian, Ukrainian & Eastern European Discussion & Information Forum - RUA!

This Is the Premier Discussion Forum on the Net for Information and Discussion about Russia, Ukraine, Eastern Europe and the Former Soviet Union. Discuss Culture, Politics, Travelling, Language, International Relationships and More. Chat with Travellers, Locals, Residents and Expats. Ask and Answer Questions about Travel, Culture, Relationships, Applying for Visas, Translators, Interpreters, and More. Give Advice, Read Trip Reports, Share Experiences and Make Friends.

Author Topic: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.  (Read 107024 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online andrewfi

  • Supporting Member
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16297
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • Articles About Almost Anything!
Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2014, 05:42:28 AM »
Ukraine's richest man takes on separatists in Donetsk.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/16/world/europe/ukraine-workers-take-to-streets-to-calm-Mariupol.html?_r=1

You might want to update your understanding in this matter.
What has ACTUALLY happened is that the guy has come to an agreement with the anti-Kyiv folks. They are on the same side in most respects, hence the agreement and, what I suppose might be called a power sharing. The problem is that this is a further devolution of the power of the junta and central government and a move toward a warlord based society similar to that which started to grow up in Russia. The major oligarchs in Ukraine tend to have regional power bases which is why they were appointed as 'governors' by the junta. You may see more, and similar, moves over the next few days and it would be a mistake to see them as being in any way positive. This move is a protectionist one because Akhmetov understands that Kyiv can not and will not protect his interests (wealth and power).

The article you read makes a few assumptions that are untrue and uses them to weave a largely fictional tale. Yes, Akhmetov is not in favour of a separate state to Ukraine, certainly not in favour of union with Russia - Russia would have his balls in a vice in days. But, like many of the anti-Kyiv folks he wants a united country with a stable economy. As a backstop he will accept a functionally independent fiefdom which is what he has started to set up.

"For what else is the life of man but a kind of play in which men in various costumes perform until the director motions them offstage?" -Erasmus

Offline mhr7

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 907
  • Country: ru
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouses Country: Russia
  • Status: Committed
  • Trips: Resident
Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2014, 05:59:39 AM »
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." -- Neil DeGrasse Tyson

Offline sashathecat

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1463
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouses Country: Ukraine baby!
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 5-10
Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2014, 09:30:23 AM »
Ukraine's richest man takes on separatists in Donetsk.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/16/world/europe/ukraine-workers-take-to-streets-to-calm-Mariupol.html?_r=1

What worries me is the trigger happy private militia springing up. They also seem to be funded by the wealthy in country. Unfortunately it appears the situation in Ukraine will deteriorate.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/call-to-arms-348076.html



Offline Anteros

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7208
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Status: Just Looking
  • Trips: 1-5
Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2014, 01:14:58 PM »
You miss the point. Airstrip One America and the mainland EU are at one in the constant covert war against Russia, and exponents of the continual expansion of NATO to hem Russia in.



Got much Paranoia going lately?

Hem Russia in????????????????


 :ROFL:    :ROFL:    :ROFL:


Russia, due to Imperialistic expansion in the 18th and 19th Centuries eearily similar to the USA, occupies the largest land mass of any one Country in the World: so vast that it goes across 10 time zones.

But instead of improving infrastructure (like building Autobahns all over Russia), making more business deals with the likes of Mercedes Benz and Chevron; Herr Putler resorts to his paranoid version of the West stealing the FSU former glory....and wastes hundreds of Billions due to his illegal annexation of Crimea and illegal soft invasion of E. Ukraine.


Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

Offline Anteros

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7208
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Status: Just Looking
  • Trips: 1-5
Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2014, 01:16:34 PM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4RjJKxsamQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4RjJKxsamQ</a>
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

Offline ashbyclarke

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2186
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouses Country: Russia
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 20+
Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2014, 01:36:18 PM »
instead of improving infrastructure (like building Autobahns all over Russia)

Ant, you can't of spent much time in Russia, there's plenty of roads between major cities they're pretty rubbish in parts, but plenty good enough in others.

What we perhaps take for granted is the logistics behind maintaining these roads, for long periods there's temperatures of -15 - -40 even below.

If the same weather conditions existed in most western countries I'm sure the road conditions would be on par if not worse then they are in Russia today.

Personally I was quite impressed with the road conditions considering the climate they are dealing with and the vast distances between cities.
I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're gonna feel all day - Frank Sinatra

Offline Anteros

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7208
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Status: Just Looking
  • Trips: 1-5
Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2014, 01:52:24 PM »
instead of improving infrastructure (like building Autobahns all over Russia)

you can't of spent much time in Russia, there's plenty of roads between major cities they're pretty rubbish in parts, but plenty good enough in others.


Oh really?  You seem to be deeply confused.  Which one is it?  Are the roads "plenty good enough" (not sure WTF that means) or are they "pretty rubbish"??  You are a walking, talking contradiction.   :chuckle:

How many lanes is the freeway from St. Petersburg to Moscow?

More importantly, how do the roads and freeways in Russia compare to those in Germany?  See, we're constantly being told of Soviet glory in defeating Germany, but who won the economic war?

Is Herr Putler going to be a neanderthal and live in the past, or is he going to make the investments in infrastructure and get Russia up to W. European standards???

Is he going to make real changes to stop corruption?  Does he really believe every Russian couple can have 4 kids, when he is way behind in developing his country?

No it's not a "cock measuring" contest with the West---Its the repercussions of living in the past instead of investing for the future.
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

Offline ashbyclarke

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2186
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouses Country: Russia
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 20+
Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2014, 01:54:33 PM »
instead of improving infrastructure (like building Autobahns all over Russia)

you can't of spent much time in Russia, there's plenty of roads between major cities they're pretty rubbish in parts, but plenty good enough in others.


Oh really?  You seem to be deeply confused.  Which one is it?  Are the roads "plenty good enough" (not sure WTF that means) or are they "pretty rubbish"??  You are a walking, talking contradiction.   :chuckle:

How many lanes is the freeway from St. Petersburg to Moscow?

More importantly, how do the roads and freeways in Russia compare to those in Germany?  See, we're constantly being told of Soviet glory in defeating Germany, but who won the economic war?

Is Herr Putler going to be a neanderthal and live in the past, or is he going to make the investments in infrastructure and get Russia up to W. European standards???

Is he going to make real changes to stop corruption?  Does he really believe every Russian couple can have 4 kids, when he is way behind in developing his country?

No it's not a "cock measuring" contest with the West---Its the repercussions of living in the past instead of investing for the future.

Have you been to Russia Ant? If so, when and which parts of the country have you driven?

As for parts being good or bad, can you say that about your own country? I certainly can, if you need examples let me know.
I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're gonna feel all day - Frank Sinatra

Offline Agape

  • Member
  • Posts: 154
  • Country: ua
  • Gender: Female
  • Status: Married
Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2014, 02:04:05 PM »
If any of you ARE interested in what Ukrainians think (most of us, in fact), I could suggest you one of the Internet sources we respect most. It is Kiev Post.

For instance, in what comes to the events on the east of Ukraine, the very fresh update one can read on Dmitry Tymchuk's military blog. He is the head of Information Resistance Group.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/author/dmitry-tymchuk/

The latest update says, Putin's intimidation tactics continue.
Станем, браття всі за волю, від Сяну до Дону в ріднім краї панувати не дамо нікому. Чорне море ще всміхнеться, дід Дніпро зрадіє, ще на нашій Україні доленька наспіє.

Offline Agape

  • Member
  • Posts: 154
  • Country: ua
  • Gender: Female
  • Status: Married
Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2014, 03:06:16 PM »
instead of improving infrastructure (like building Autobahns all over Russia)

Ant, you can't of spent much time in Russia, there's plenty of roads between major cities they're pretty rubbish in parts, but plenty good enough in others.



Roads, unfortunately, is not the only issue of Russian Federation.
While Putin has got roughly 40 000 000 000 (probably, it is 140 000 000 000, what changes nothing) of , no,  not Russian roubles, most likely US dollars, average people in province live in not luxurious conditions


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k60FoLeFXiA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k60FoLeFXiA</a>


Станем, браття всі за волю, від Сяну до Дону в ріднім краї панувати не дамо нікому. Чорне море ще всміхнеться, дід Дніпро зрадіє, ще на нашій Україні доленька наспіє.

Offline ashbyclarke

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2186
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouses Country: Russia
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 20+
Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2014, 03:25:39 PM »
Roads, unfortunately, is not the only issue of Russian Federation.
While Putin has got roughly 40 000 000 000 (probably, it is 140 000 000 000, what changes nothing) of , no,  not Russian roubles, most likely US dollars, average people in province live in not luxurious conditions

Interesting video :)

I do however have a different view, there's many of these Village people who have grown up in this environment who do not wish to have change, given the opportunity to move into a modern luxury apartment they would refuse, preferring to live in the lifestyle they know well, a modern lifestyle isn't something they desire.

Sure you will disagree, I talk from experience and some people I know.

There's one thing thinking that a modern life of TV, supermarkets, heating, running water etc seems like a life essential to most, some who have never had these modern conveniences are more then happy to live without, enjoy working the land to survive and couldn't understand a life any different.

There's then the case of pensions, whilst Russia doesn't provide a huge state pension the people don't starve, there's as much pension poverty in western countries as there is in Russia. I'm sure someone will provide statistics to disprove me but that doesn't take account of the self providing nature of older generations in Russia, many will work land in order to feed themselves during summer/winter. I know of one who's in her 90's still planting potatoes, strawberries etc etc etc.

That same lady would soon be dead sat in a nice apartment day in day out watching some Jeremy Kyle BS day in day out, she has a reason to live and remains active, I fully respect her for that.

The video is very misleading in real terms.
I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're gonna feel all day - Frank Sinatra

Offline Anteros

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7208
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Status: Just Looking
  • Trips: 1-5
Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2014, 07:52:59 PM »
instead of improving infrastructure (like building Autobahns all over Russia)

you can't of spent much time in Russia, there's plenty of roads between major cities they're pretty rubbish in parts, but plenty good enough in others.



Oh really?  You seem to be deeply confused.  Which one is it?  Are the roads "plenty good enough" (not sure WTF that means) or are they "pretty rubbish"??  You are a walking, talking contradiction.   :chuckle:

How many lanes is the freeway from St. Petersburg to Moscow?

More importantly, how do the roads and freeways in Russia compare to those in Germany?  See, we're constantly being told of Soviet glory in defeating Germany, but who won the economic war?

Is Herr Putler going to be a neanderthal and live in the past, or is he going to make the investments in infrastructure and get Russia up to W. European standards???

Is he going to make real changes to stop corruption?  Does he really believe every Russian couple can have 4 kids, when he is way behind in developing his country?

No it's not a "cock measuring" contest with the West---Its the repercussions of living in the past instead of investing for the future.

Have you been to Russia Ant? If so, when and which parts of the country have you driven?

As for parts being good or bad, can you say that about your own country? I certainly can, if you need examples let me know.


You think that you're clever with your deflections and logical fallacies, but you're not.


Again, How many lanes is the highway from St. Pete to Moscow??????

And how does that compare to the Autobahn in Germany, the freeways system in Switzerland, Austria, France, etc???

I've driven all over Europe, Russia overall is about 50 years behind, and Herr Putler is wasting Billions invading another country instead of working on his own country... :sick0012:


http://englishrussia.com/2007/01/30/death-highway-st-petersburg-moscow/
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

Offline mendeleyev

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12849
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouses Country: Russia
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 20+
Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2014, 09:30:26 PM »
Anteros, you need to give Russian road builders more time!

Plus, writing anything negative about Russia in publicly read media is now a crime under new laws. Tsk, tsk. You are a bad boy. You are free to have an opinion but not free to express it!

As to the roads, be patient, lad. Back in 2007 I wrote about the M-10 here on this forum:

Quote
Known as M-10, the Moscow Highway (Московское Шоссе) traveling south and as Leningrad Highway (Ленинградское шоссе) climbing north, 666 kilometres (414 miles) were in front of us.

When Dwight Eisenhower returned from Germany he was very impressed with German highways.  Realizing that modern highways would aid in the rapid defense should America be attacked, the USA began a campaign which we now know as the US Interstate highway system.  What it also did was revolutionize the economy, stimulating rapid transit of trade goods at a pace unknown anywhere else in the world.

Stalin on the other hand was afraid of modern roads.  Russia might be ruled by the Germans today had modern highways allowed the Germans to move quickly to conquer Leningrad and Moscow.  And Russia had been battered by Stalin's brutality before Hilter came calling and Russia was too drained to begin a modernization of roads.

So while the USA modernized thru the 1950s to 1970s, Russia today has less than 10 superhighways.  Known as Federal Highways, most of Russia's road system is not that much different than they were 50-100-150-500 years ago.  In the case of M-10, the Federal highway between Moscow and St P, the only difference today is pavement.  Built by a Frenchman who was lured to Russia by Alexander I on the promise of being commissioned as a Major General in the Russian Army, its the main road between Moscow and St Petersburg.   

The first known "travel article" written about the highway was authored by Alexander Radishchev, who in the year 1790 wrote his Journey from Petersburg to Moscow.   “I looked around me,” wrote Radishchev, “
Quote
and my soul was pierced by the sufferings of humanity. I turned my gaze within myself – and beheld that man’s affliction arises from man, and often only from the fact that he looks indirectly at the objects surrounding him”.

Not exactly an AAA Motor Club endorsement.  He was arrested and exiled to Siberia for writing the report.

Except for the addition of asphalt pavement, not much has changed to the 2 lane highway which wanders and angles thru small villages and towns toward it's destination.  The main highway in Russia, connecting two biggest cities Moscow city and St. Petersburg has only two lanes, with only a few sections with 3-4 lanes, mainly closer to the two cities.  Designed as a 'reverse' highway in which the middle lane, when it rarely appears, is a passing lane going either direction.  M-10 is accident prone and claims the lives of hundreds annually.

Don't get me wrong, its a scenic road with lots of little villages and slices of authentic Russian life.  Think of America's famous "Route 66" in the 1950s.  It's just not very fast.

Nor is it safe.

Offline mendeleyev

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12849
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouses Country: Russia
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 20+
Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2014, 09:44:21 PM »
In fairness, Russia is building M-11, a new toll expressway between Moscow and Saint Petersburg. Personally I like the idea, except the sections going thru the Khimki forest, as it offers a safer route with modern construction methods/roadway management and faster speeds around 150 km/h or 90+ mph.

You can read more about the new M11 here: http://www.aecom.com/Where+We+Are/Europe/Transportation/_projectsList/M11+Highway,+Russia

The existing M-10 will remain in place as kind of a Route 66 allowing a more scenic route. The M designation is for federal highway and it will continue on northward to Finlandia (Finland).

There are parts of the M-10 that are as modern as anywhere else.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVYDKxQDMTw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVYDKxQDMTw</a>



Offline ashbyclarke

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2186
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouses Country: Russia
  • Status: Married
  • Trips: 20+
Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2014, 12:54:59 AM »
You think that you're clever with your deflections and logical fallacies, but you're not.


Again, How many lanes is the highway from St. Pete to Moscow??????

And how does that compare to the Autobahn in Germany, the freeways system in Switzerland, Austria, France, etc???

I've driven all over Europe, Russia overall is about 50 years behind, and Herr Putler is wasting Billions invading another country instead of working on his own country... :sick0012:


http://englishrussia.com/2007/01/30/death-highway-st-petersburg-moscow/

Ant, it's a simple question, when have you been to Russia, and which parts have you driven? Why so secretive?

I have never driven to St Pete, there you got me, so just how many lanes in the motorway?

Which parts of Europe have you driven then? How do the European roads fair to Russian roads, can you give us your thoughts then I am very interested to hear them.
I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're gonna feel all day - Frank Sinatra