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Author Topic: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.  (Read 210953 times)

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Offline Halo

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There is an interesting interview with Luke Harding of The Guardian, which will play on CBC's Q on the hour (about 20 minutes from now).  It may also be on their podcast tomorrow.  Quite illuminating for those swallowing Kremlin propaganda.

http://www.cbc.ca/liveradio/popup/index.html?networkKey=cbc_radio_one&programKey=vancouver
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Manny

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Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2014, 12:37:18 PM »
That link for me opened up some zany comedy type show.

But as the Ukrainian side deserves an equal airing as well, and the link was not about the Russian view [the topic it was in], I made a fresh topic.
Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<< - Read a trip report from South Korea, China and Hong Kong >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.

Offline Halo

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Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2014, 12:51:41 PM »
The link was live (so to speak, it airs at 10 a.m. in every Canadian market), so you missed the programme.  I'll check for a podcast and provide a link, if available.  The comedy programme is The Debaters, but a better one (Thursdays only) is This is That.

The interview did not present the Ukrainian side, it was about Russian attempts to influence perceptions by flooding blogs and comment section of newspapers with pro Kremlin commentary.  I have noticed this in Canadian newspapers, particularly in the National Post.  The same talking points, almost word for word, in the same awkward English, posted under various monikers, appear time and again.

Luke Harding, BTW, has the distinction of being the first Western journalist to be de facto expelled from Russia in the post Soviet period (by refusing him entry and deporting him the same day).
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten


Offline Manny

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Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2014, 01:14:47 PM »
about Russian attempts to influence perceptions by flooding blogs and comment section of newspapers with pro Kremlin commentary. 

I think both sides do the same. We have a topic or two here from Russian IP addresses, new members, that puts forth a Russian view. But similarly, other venues are bursting with American propaganda.

Anyway, only fitting we have a topic in which folk can espouse the American Ukrainian point of view.
Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<< - Read a trip report from South Korea, China and Hong Kong >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.

Offline Halo

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Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2014, 01:23:52 PM »
Luke Harding is a Brit.

Most Americans don't care enough about this issue to be commenting on it in online newspapers and blogs.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Manny

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Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2014, 01:44:40 PM »
You miss the point. Airstrip One America and the mainland EU are at one in the constant covert war against Russia, and exponents of the continual expansion of NATO to hem Russia in.

Our media is dripping with anti-Russian rhetoric each day. Much of it from America.

Many people swallow it. The same way people swallow what happened in Ukraine as just a bunch of folks who had a genuine protest, and it all got out of hand because of the nasty Mr Putin. It has more gravitas when you can tag on references to Hitler, lots of comments about dictators, and the fact [apparently] that he is about to "invade" [insert country of choice - I vote Guatemala].

I agree that most Americans couldn't put a pin in Ukraine on a map. Indeed, many think Europe is a country. Hence why they don't want their tax dollars used in another public war, and why America is instead using their tax dollars to fight a covert one instead; and encouraging the media to report it as a crusade for freedom, supporting an underdog, the war on [insert this weeks target catch phrase] or whatever the buzz phrase is there now to justify intervention in 124 countries across the world (I read today).
Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<< - Read a trip report from South Korea, China and Hong Kong >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.

Offline Halo

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Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2014, 01:56:39 PM »
You miss the point. Airstrip One America and the EU are at one in the constant war against Russia, and exponents of the continual expansion of NATO to hem Russia in.

Untrue.  Up until Crimea, Russia and the U.S. even held joint military exercises.  Hardly the actions of states "at war" with each other.

Quote
Our media is dripping with anti-Russian rhetoric each day. Much of it from America.

I don't really consider the Daily Mail a serious media source.  I do love its witty headlines, though.   I also have not found a significant amount of "anti Russian" views in most serious American newspapers.

Quote
Many people swallow it. The same way people swallow what happened in Ukraine is just a bunch of folks who had a genuine protest, and it all got out of hand because of the nasty Mr Putin.

That was not the case though, at the beginning of the Euromaidan protests though, was it?  Further, most people weren't paying attention. 

I don't believe the US or the EU were behind Euromaidan.  As I have posted in the past, it was Orangista politicians.  But even among the paid protesters, there were genuine protesters who see their future in the West, not the East.  Some mistakenly believe the EU Association Agreement will bring instant prosperity, but many understand that weeding out a great deal of corruption in Ukraine is more likely to occur by adopting EU, rather than Russian, standards.

Quote
It has more gravitas when you can tag on references to Hitler, lots of comments about dictators, and the fact [apparently] that he is about to "invade" [insert country of choice].

That must be why all the Kremlin propagandists insert the word фашисты as an adjective describing anything even remotely related to Ukraine.

Quote
I agree that most Americans couldn't put a pin in Ukraine on a map. Hence why they don't want their tax dollars used in another public war, and why America is instead using their tax dollars to fight a covert one instead; and encouraging the media to report is as a crusade for freedom, supporting an underdog, the war on [insert this weeks target catch phrase] or whatever the buzz phrase is there now to justify intervention in 124 countries across the world (I read today).

The Obama administration stated from Day 1 that there would be no military intervention in Ukraine.  They also are not fighting any war in Ukraine, whether covert or not. 
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Manny

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Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2014, 02:05:53 PM »
I don't really consider the Daily Mail a serious media source.  I do love its witty headlines, though.   I also have not found a significant amount of "anti Russian" views in most serious American newspapers.

It depends what you define as serious. Yes, the Daily Mail can be a little sensationalist, but they do allow a balance of opinion. The Times on the other hand [widely regarded as a more serious publication] has been publishing complete fiction in its "editorial opinion".

I don't believe the US or the EU were behind Euromaidan.  As I have posted in the past, it was Orangista politicians.

We will agree to differ on that then. I think much of it was orchestrated and planned by the west. Sure, many innocent people got sucked in believing their own version of what it was about [rather like football hooliganism in that respect].

But even among the paid protesters, there were genuine protesters who see their future in the West, not the East.  Some mistakenly believe the EU Association Agreement will bring instant prosperity, but many understand that weeding out corruption in Ukraine is more likely by adopting EU, rather than Russian, standards.

I don't think anyone doubts that genuine protesters were mixed in there. Many might "see their future" in the EU. So do half of Africa and India. The EU [by which I mean the people - not the machine] doesn't want Ukraine. We cant afford to fix them [we are still paying for Greece]. They bring nothing to the party in exchange.

That must be why all the Kremlin propagandists insert the word фашисты as an adjective describing anything even remotely related to Ukraine.

Of course they do. They must now play the game. War isn't just guns any more.

The Obama administration stated from Day 1 that there would be no military intervention in Ukraine.  They also are not fighting any war in Ukraine, whether covert or not.

You might want to Google the words "Ukraine" with any mixture of the words Greystone, Graystone, XE, Blackwater and Academi.
Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<< - Read a trip report from South Korea, China and Hong Kong >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.

Offline NS1

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Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2014, 04:52:52 PM »
Most news from here has very little Russian propaganda. I think most involved, weather
on this forum or such places, have learned enough to look for info on many places.
One thing many over look is the average person in Ukraine and how they feel.
Yes we speak about our friends, wives, girlfriends and their family. But the speak to
many, and the feeling is most want to be independent, With Russians involvement
this has grown more and does daily.

Regardless of our views on how events unfolded in Kiev, the protest did grow to average
Ukrainians, finally had enough of corruption, and all the issues in the country, which have not been getting better, I think most would agree, events, spiralled out of control and got ugly quickly.
Things started to calm down and Russia got involved. Weather you agree with it out not
the average person in Ukraine, see's this as being fuelled by Russia.

For what its worth, My wife might be Ukrainian, but she was born in Russia, has family their,
Owned land in Krym and now wants nothing to do with Russia, figures her land is gone,
we were planning trip, next year to Russia, she does not want to go, now or ever ( her words)
Mostly now worries about her son and friends in different parts of Ukraine.
Where she is, it is peaceful, quiet and life moves forward, with big uncertainty as to whats next.

When this is over it will take years if ever, for Ukrainians to get over, Russian wanted Ukraine closer, all they managed was to push them further away, especially the younger generation.
There is nothing permanent except change.

Offline BCKev

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Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2014, 05:00:50 PM »

The Obama administration stated from Day 1 that there would be no military intervention in Ukraine.  They also are not fighting any war in Ukraine, whether covert or not.

You might want to Google the words "Ukraine" with any mixture of the words Greystone, Graystone, XE, Blackwater and Academi.

The presence of American mercenaries in eastern Ukraine, doesn't necessitate the involvement of the American government. If these or any mercenaries are part of the fighting, the more interesting question is who is paying for it. There was speculation in one russian article that mercenaries were being funded by the Ukrainian government.

There are also reports of Russian military being in eastern Ukraine. Russia denied the presence of their troops in Crimea, only to later confirm it. Possbily the same thing going on here.

Offline Vinnvinny

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Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2014, 05:03:26 PM »
The Obama administration stated from Day 1 that there would be no military intervention in Ukraine.  They also are not fighting any war in Ukraine, whether covert or not.

You might want to Google the words "Ukraine" with any mixture of the words Greystone, Graystone, XE, Blackwater and Academi.

You may also wish to Google 'An Alien knocked on my door today' if you really want a good laugh. tiphat

Offline BCKev

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Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2014, 05:10:06 PM »
Most news from here has very little Russian propaganda. I think most involved, weather
on this forum or such places, have learned enough to look for info on many places.
One thing many over look is the average person in Ukraine and how they feel.
Yes we speak about our friends, wives, girlfriends and their family. But the speak to
many, and the feeling is most want to be independent, With Russians involvement
this has grown more and does daily.

Regardless of our views on how events unfolded in Kiev, the protest did grow to average
Ukrainians, finally had enough of corruption, and all the issues in the country, which have not been getting better, I think most would agree, events, spiralled out of control and got ugly quickly.
Things started to calm down and Russia got involved. Weather you agree with it out not
the average person in Ukraine, see's this as being fuelled by Russia.

For what its worth, My wife might be Ukrainian, but she was born in Russia, has family their,
Owned land in Krym and now wants nothing to do with Russia, figures her land is gone,
we were planning trip, next year to Russia, she does not want to go, now or ever ( her words)
Mostly now worries about her son and friends in different parts of Ukraine.
Where she is, it is peaceful, quiet and life moves forward, with big uncertainty as to whats next.

When this is over it will take years if ever, for Ukrainians to get over, Russian wanted Ukraine closer, all they managed was to push them further away, especially the younger generation.

NS1, the view you present of the situation in Ukraine is consistent with that of my wife, and our friends in Ukraine. She is from the Dnepro area. They want Ukraine to be unified and independent, and for Ukrainians to sort out their own problems without interference from Russia.

Offline Halo

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Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2014, 12:06:45 AM »
Here's a link to the podcast.  There is a short ad before the podcast kicks in.  Luke Harding's interview starts at 5:06.

http://podcast.cbc.ca/mp3/podcasts/qpodcast_20140514_91406.mp3
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline mendeleyev

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Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2014, 01:49:23 AM »
Halo, thanks for posting this. Harding is spot on in his assessment.

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Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2014, 05:42:28 AM »
Ukraine's richest man takes on separatists in Donetsk.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/16/world/europe/ukraine-workers-take-to-streets-to-calm-Mariupol.html?_r=1

You might want to update your understanding in this matter.
What has ACTUALLY happened is that the guy has come to an agreement with the anti-Kiev folks. They are on the same side in most respects, hence the agreement and, what I suppose might be called a power sharing. The problem is that this is a further devolution of the power of the junta and central government and a move toward a warlord based society similar to that which started to grow up in Russia. The major oligarchs in Ukraine tend to have regional power bases which is why they were appointed as 'governors' by the junta. You may see more, and similar, moves over the next few days and it would be a mistake to see them as being in any way positive. This move is a protectionist one because Akhmetov understands that Kiev can not and will not protect his interests (wealth and power).

The article you read makes a few assumptions that are untrue and uses them to weave a largely fictional tale. Yes, Akhmetov is not in favour of a separate state to Ukraine, certainly not in favour of union with Russia - Russia would have his balls in a vice in days. But, like many of the anti-Kiev folks he wants a united country with a stable economy. As a backstop he will accept a functionally independent fiefdom which is what he has started to set up.
...everything ends always well; if it’s still bad, then it’s not the end!

Online mhr7

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Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2014, 05:59:39 AM »

Offline sashathecat

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Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2014, 09:30:23 AM »
Ukraine's richest man takes on separatists in Donetsk.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/16/world/europe/ukraine-workers-take-to-streets-to-calm-Mariupol.html?_r=1

What worries me is the trigger happy private militia springing up. They also seem to be funded by the wealthy in country. Unfortunately it appears the situation in Ukraine will deteriorate.

http://www.Kievpost.com/content/ukraine/call-to-arms-348076.html


Offline Anteros

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Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2014, 01:14:58 PM »
You miss the point. Airstrip One America and the mainland EU are at one in the constant covert war against Russia, and exponents of the continual expansion of NATO to hem Russia in.



Got much Paranoia going lately?

Hem Russia in????????????????


 :ROFL:    :ROFL:    :ROFL:


Russia, due to Imperialistic expansion in the 18th and 19th Centuries eearily similar to the USA, occupies the largest land mass of any one Country in the World: so vast that it goes across 10 time zones.

But instead of improving infrastructure (like building Autobahns all over Russia), making more business deals with the likes of Mercedes Benz and Chevron; Herr Putler resorts to his paranoid version of the West stealing the FSU former glory....and wastes hundreds of Billions due to his illegal annexation of Crimea and illegal soft invasion of E. Ukraine.


Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

Offline Anteros

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Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

Offline ashbyclarke

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Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2014, 01:36:18 PM »
instead of improving infrastructure (like building Autobahns all over Russia)

Ant, you can't of spent much time in Russia, there's plenty of roads between major cities they're pretty rubbish in parts, but plenty good enough in others.

What we perhaps take for granted is the logistics behind maintaining these roads, for long periods there's temperatures of -15 - -40 even below.

If the same weather conditions existed in most western countries I'm sure the road conditions would be on par if not worse then they are in Russia today.

Personally I was quite impressed with the road conditions considering the climate they are dealing with and the vast distances between cities.
I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're gonna feel all day - Frank Sinatra

Offline Anteros

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Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2014, 01:52:24 PM »
instead of improving infrastructure (like building Autobahns all over Russia)

you can't of spent much time in Russia, there's plenty of roads between major cities they're pretty rubbish in parts, but plenty good enough in others.


Oh really?  You seem to be deeply confused.  Which one is it?  Are the roads "plenty good enough" (not sure WTF that means) or are they "pretty rubbish"??  You are a walking, talking contradiction.   :chuckle:

How many lanes is the freeway from St. Petersburg to Moscow?

More importantly, how do the roads and freeways in Russia compare to those in Germany?  See, we're constantly being told of Soviet glory in defeating Germany, but who won the economic war?

Is Herr Putler going to be a neanderthal and live in the past, or is he going to make the investments in infrastructure and get Russia up to W. European standards???

Is he going to make real changes to stop corruption?  Does he really believe every Russian couple can have 4 kids, when he is way behind in developing his country?

No it's not a "cock measuring" contest with the West---Its the repercussions of living in the past instead of investing for the future.
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

Offline ashbyclarke

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Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2014, 01:54:33 PM »
instead of improving infrastructure (like building Autobahns all over Russia)

you can't of spent much time in Russia, there's plenty of roads between major cities they're pretty rubbish in parts, but plenty good enough in others.


Oh really?  You seem to be deeply confused.  Which one is it?  Are the roads "plenty good enough" (not sure WTF that means) or are they "pretty rubbish"??  You are a walking, talking contradiction.   :chuckle:

How many lanes is the freeway from St. Petersburg to Moscow?

More importantly, how do the roads and freeways in Russia compare to those in Germany?  See, we're constantly being told of Soviet glory in defeating Germany, but who won the economic war?

Is Herr Putler going to be a neanderthal and live in the past, or is he going to make the investments in infrastructure and get Russia up to W. European standards???

Is he going to make real changes to stop corruption?  Does he really believe every Russian couple can have 4 kids, when he is way behind in developing his country?

No it's not a "cock measuring" contest with the West---Its the repercussions of living in the past instead of investing for the future.

Have you been to Russia Ant? If so, when and which parts of the country have you driven?

As for parts being good or bad, can you say that about your own country? I certainly can, if you need examples let me know.
I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're gonna feel all day - Frank Sinatra

Offline Agape

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Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2014, 02:04:05 PM »
If any of you ARE interested in what Ukrainians think (most of us, in fact), I could suggest you one of the Internet sources we respect most. It is Kiev Post.

For instance, in what comes to the events on the east of Ukraine, the very fresh update one can read on Dmitry Tymchuk's military blog. He is the head of Information Resistance Group.

http://www.Kievpost.com/content/author/dmitry-tymchuk/

The latest update says, Putin's intimidation tactics continue.
Станем, браття всі за волю, від Сяну до Дону в ріднім краї панувати не дамо нікому. Чорне море ще всміхнеться, дід Дніпро зрадіє, ще на нашій Україні доленька наспіє.

Offline Agape

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Re: The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2014, 03:06:16 PM »
instead of improving infrastructure (like building Autobahns all over Russia)

Ant, you can't of spent much time in Russia, there's plenty of roads between major cities they're pretty rubbish in parts, but plenty good enough in others.



Roads, unfortunately, is not the only issue of Russian Federation.
While Putin has got roughly 40 000 000 000 (probably, it is 140 000 000 000, what changes nothing) of , no,  not Russian roubles, most likely US dollars, average people in province live in not luxurious conditions




Станем, браття всі за волю, від Сяну до Дону в ріднім краї панувати не дамо нікому. Чорне море ще всміхнеться, дід Дніпро зрадіє, ще на нашій Україні доленька наспіє.