The View from the Russian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.

[Manny]

I have always found that when examining news and world events, one should listen to both sides of an argument in order to form an opinion. Which one is the more credible? Who has the most to gain or lose?

In the west, the news on anything to do with Russia is broadcast from the perspective that we somehow already "know" Russia is "bad" before we start. That is something of a given in most western reporting. In the current Ukraine crisis, the western media has been shamefully pedalling EU and US propaganda, avoiding truths, misreporting, etc.

Here on RUA we have the usual "Russia is bad" brigade that seem to think if they shout louder, it somehow makes them correct. Some for example, paste every link they can find that is anti-Russian. Some Americans seem to come at every issue as though there is the "American way", which is of course correct. And then there are "other views" which are of course, wrong.

The western media (and many here) will have you believe that the dreadful Hitler-like Putin is invading Ukraine by stealth. The will gleefully report nowhere is safe, the Baltics and Poland will be swallowed up next, he must be stopped, etc. People who do not think, accept all that as a given and agree. The same people post here every piece of anti-Russia propaganda they can find to support that position.

Lets look at the other side of the coin. Russia says that American aggression and an expansionist NATO wants missiles dotted all around its borders, to do this they must subjugate Ukraine by stealth, to achieve this, when EU carrots and bribery didn't work with the elected president, they funded political unrest. The US doesn't want to start WW3, American people wont vote for more war for stuff they don't care about or understand, so instead, the US and their EU puppets funded a political coup. Russia moved quickly to protect Crimea, its citizens and its military base. And we now see what is almost civil war the country, all caused by outside interlopers. Outside intervention has created death and civil war in a country that had no such tensions before. Russia requested the US and the EU help them fund reforms in Ukraine. Instead, the US funded Greystone and others to help install a Junta. A Junta that is today firing on its own people.

What I seek to do in this topic is encourage a thread where the Russian point of view is considered and aired without the usual suspects posting American propaganda or nonsense about Hitler.

You dont have to believe the Russian media machine chapter and verse, but I think unless you listen to both sides (and by that, I don't mean flicking over from CNN to Fox), you will not be able to form a rounded opinion.

A good place to start is to read Putin's Q&A on April 17th. Its a long read, but gives a good overview of the Russian viewpoint. You can find it here: Direct Line with Vladimir Putin

[WestCoast]

Manny the only reference you list for the Russian viewpoint is Putin's speech. Keeping in mind that most of the non FSU people on this forum don't read or speak Russian where are the other sources?

Also you keep referring to the Russia 'bad' crowd, aren't you and Andrew part of the Russia 'good', west is 'bad' crowd? When was the last time you had something good to say about Obama or Cameron? Also keep in mind that outside intervention in Ukraine includes Putin. 

[Manny]

Manny the only reference you list for the Russian viewpoint is Putin's speech.

First post. This is a topic. More will come.

Keeping in mind that most of the non FSU people on this forum don't read or speak Russian where are the other sources?

   Click the link. Its in English. 

Also keep in mind that outside intervention in Ukraine includes Putin.

Interesting point. Russia disagrees. Ukraine and Russia are brothers says Putin. Mendeleyev posted some evocative images on that subject a few days ago I'll reproduce here.

[NS1]

Manny, hard to start a proper debate or conversation on a topic, when you begin it with your typical, Pro Putin, Russian, Anti American rant.
When news has come from people in Russia or Ukraine, not the west, you have ignored it anyway. Along with pro Russia crowd.
Reality is politics are one thing an armed invasion is another,
don't you think?

[Manny]

Lets take a look at some reporting from Russian media in English.

Over the weekend, the Ukrainian army has been instructed to use force against the Ukrainian people. The BBC has some of this, but RT has more. Here is some. Including some bits the western media dont show you.

[Manny]

Manny, hard to start a proper debate or conversation on a topic, when you begin it with your typical, Pro Putin, Russian, Anti American rant.

If you think there is any kind of rant there, I suggest you read it again and ask if you have questions.

I appreciate that some of you guys over the pond don't like hearing an alternative point of view. But this isn't an American site, it is a European site that has many American users, and an alternative point of view will be aired here in order that readers can make their own mind up.

[mhr7]

Interesting point. Russia disagrees. Ukraine and Russia are brothers says Putin.

I think this is a big part of the issue. Most Ukrainians I know don't like the idea of being little brother to Russia. They see that quality of life is better in the EU and want this for themselves. They would like to determine their own future without so much Russian interference. The strong dislike of Putin in Ukraine isn't just something manufactured by the West.

I get my news from several western sources and they usually don't paint Russia as bad. I haven't read any news reports that blame the pro-Russians for the violence in Odessa.

[Manny]

They see that quality of life is better in the EU and want this for themselves.

That is another interesting point that many miss.

EU membership was not on the table for Ukraine. They are a long, long way from that. While some of them may be EU aspirant, it was more of a dangled carrot for some indeterminate time in the future than a viable option in the short term. Ukraine will not be joining the EU any time soon. Russia was the one offering trade deals, cheap gas and entry to the customs union. The EU actually offered very little beyond words.

So why were they waving EU flags? Some people there really got the wrong end of the stick when this kicked off. It somehow became about the EU -v- Russia, which it never was.

[andrewfi]

A good starting point to expand one's knowledge can be found here: www.russialist.org I have been a subscriber to the email list for 14 or 15 years. It is well worth subscribing because very often the email list is a couple of days ahead of the list archive and even further ahead of the website.

This list is used by very many news and magazine outlets because David Johnson and his posse do a great job of media scanning, certainly much better than anyone here can manage.

I wrote about the process of critical reading some time ago on this forum. I will try to find it. Here's a thing though. Unless you read stuff and include in your own analysis material with which you wholeheartedly disagree then your analysis is faulty.

Don't be afraid of reading in Russian or Ukrainian - just do yourself the favour of learning how to read in Cyrillic and from there use Google Translate.

When reading look past the emotional aspects and look to the facts. Facts (or claims of fact) can be verified and once verified form the foundation upon which to build one's own analysis and thence one's own informed options. Try to see that you have at least good secondary sources and confirmation from more than one secondary source. While I absolutely suggest looking part the emotional try to always see through the eyes of the stakeholders. Do claims pass the sanity test of 'that's what people do'? Understanding of both people and history helps here. (no Wikipedia is not your friend here, facts without comprehension are useless).

Look to the track record of the source here. For example, pretty much every claim made with 'evidence ' presented by the US has  been debunked and walked back. Understanding that this is an ongoing part of the propaganda process helps - again ask the sanity check questions of any such material: does the claim make sense, does the claim fit with known facts, does the claim fit with our knowledge of history (often very recent history)?

If you see a claim from one side look at counterclaims, how do they fit into the sanity check regime?

Finally, understand that this silliness is occurring on several levels and there are different levels of reality to consider. For example, what is happening in Ukraine is part of a larger, ongoing narrative that is invisible to most people,  but that does not reduce or negate that reality. What is happening on the ground is another reality and, again, that reality is invisible,  or at least of little concern to those whose reality is at the higher macro level. Thus we will sometimes see apparent conflicts of reality. For example, why have the Russians not, at the time of writing this piece, not taken the actions expected of them by most observers and stakeholders? This apparent conflict of realities is probably very, very significant. The Russian government understand these different realities and are attempting, in my opinion, to bridge the differences. I hope they succeed.

Lastly, no matter what your sympathies can I strongly suggest that we regain from crowing about events. We are a community and there is no good reason for people to, often without understanding or reason, pick a side and make inflammatory and often cruel and inhumane comments about events. I have read shameful comments from a couple of people about what has happened in Odessa. Real people are being killed. A country is breaking apart as the result of external interference and millions of people are going to suffer even more than they have already done. In some cases the comments being made are,  IMHO, barbaric yet in a few weeks or months the writers are going to be seeking life partners from among those that right now they make obscene comments about and to.

[Manny]

Are you anti-Russia? Or pro-Russia? Anti-Ukraine or pro-Ukraine?

Another aspect some people here seem to like to fall out about, if one feels himself pro-Ukrainian, does that mean he is anti-Russian? Most english speakers here seem to think so. Why must it be so? Why not be pro-FSU?

I would consider myself generally pro-Russian, but that doesn't make me anti-Ukrainian (despite what some like to imagine).

Lets take a leaf from the ladies' book: Look at the women chatting here. Some are from Ukraine, some from Russia and elsewhere. They banter, agree and disagree like any group of people. But few - if any - are "anti" the other.

For those of us who are married, I bet most of your wife's Russian-speaking friends are a mix between Russians and Ukrainians. I see my wife's friends on social media and they are people across Russia, Ukraine and several FSU countries. I know when we have been on meets from RUA where folks come with their wives, the women hail from usually Russia and Ukraine, and all get along together well enough. As do people in all the ex USSR countries. When we are in Estonia, for sure you find Russian and Estonian pockets of people who tend to gravitate towards each other. But seldom is one group hostile to the other. Yes, it happens, but not enough to cause much real tension.

[WestCoast]

Also keep in mind that outside intervention in Ukraine includes Putin.

Interesting point. Russia disagrees. Ukraine and Russia are brothers says Putin. Mendeleyev posted some evocative images on that subject a few days ago I'll reproduce here.

If you're going to use that argument then we should reset the boundaries of many countries the world over. The UK is the head of the Commonwealth of Nations with member countries spanning the globe. Although not a member of the Commonwealth the USA is a child of the UK empire so it too would be included. Does that mean the UK has a right to control the affairs of Commonwealth countries? Pretty sure the US would disagree. Even Canada would disagree. Putin's wrong if he believes a common heritage gives him the right to dictate to the Ukrainian people. 

[Manny]

A country is breaking apart as the result of external interference

I am not sure that is generally accepted on the other side of the pond yet. Their media is still spouting that Russia is about to invade Latvia or Poland or somewhere. 

Maybe one of the thinking Americans (not Anteros with a copy/paste from Wikipedia) will enlighten us of the mood there.

[yankee]

A country is breaking apart as the result of external interference

I am not sure that is generally accepted on the other side of the pond yet. Their media is still spouting that Russia is about to invade Latvia or Poland or somewhere. 

Maybe one of the thinking Americans (not Anteros with a copy/paste from Wikipedia) will enlighten us of the mood there.

I am not going to cut and paste.  The media and politicians here promote the idea that Russia wants to invade everyone.

Don't even suggest that the US instigated the overthrow in Kiev, no one will hear of it.  I work with the defense industry and most are very hard line against Putin.  We need that enemy to keep our industry alive.

[Manny]

If you're going to use that argument then we should reset the boundaries of many countries the world over. The UK is the head of the Commonwealth of Nations with member countries spanning the globe. Although not a member of the Commonwealth the USA is a child of the UK empire so it too would be included. Does that mean the UK has a right to control the affairs of Commonwealth countries? Pretty sure the US would disagree. Even Canada would disagree. Putin's wrong if he believes a common heritage gives him the right to dictate to the Ukrainian people.

I take your point Westy, but I think you are applying Canadian/American thinking to an FSU issue. This is where misunderstanding occurs. People who are broadly the same (Americans and British for example) can differ in how they think.

Over the years, I like to think I have a pretty good grasp of how Russians think [yes, I know they don't all think the same and in some respects that is an oxymoron]. My wife is fond of telling me I think like a Russian. What she calls "thinking like a Russian" I just call common sense. But, I find myself out of step with people who think a different way - which seems to be most people here. 

[Manny]

The media and politicians here promote the idea that Russia wants to invade everyone.

Don't even suggest that the US instigated the overthrow in Kiev, no one will hear of it.  I work with the defense industry and most are very hard line against Putin.  We need that enemy to keep our industry alive.

Its nice to hear that from a thinking American, Yankee. That was pretty much my understanding of what I had read of American media. It's nice to have a reality check from someone who lives there. 

[Anteros]

Manny, hard to start a proper debate or conversation on a topic, when you begin it with your typical, Pro Putin, Russian, Anti American rant.

If you think there is any kind of rant there, I suggest you read it again and ask if you have questions.

I appreciate that some of you guys over the pond don't like hearing an alternative point of view. But this isn't an American site, it is a European site that has many American users, and an alternative point of view will be aired here in order that readers can make their own mind up.

Note to Anteros: Your posts haven't been deleted as you assert, they have been moved in accordance with what I wrote in the OP. This is not a topic for you to copy/paste American anti-Russian media and every link you can find in - we have enough of that here already. Do it on other topics. Read the OP and the topic title. This is a topic where the adults can have a sensible conversation.

Note to Manny:  You did indeed delete one of my posts; the other two are entirely relevent, as they concern themselves with the fact of how Journalists in Russia are treated who do not parrot the pro-Putin agenda.  RT is owned by the Russian Federal government and as such is just a mouthpiece for it.  CNN and Fox are NOT owned by the US government and may cover stories as they wish.  You really are not genuine when you claim you wish to have a sensible conversation.  Let's see what happens when some Putin opposition figures show up.  Will you delete or move their posts as well, claiming that they are off topic?

Vinny got it right, and you claimed he was only leaving a stink bomb.

[WestCoast]

If you're going to use that argument then we should reset the boundaries of many countries the world over. The UK is the head of the Commonwealth of Nations with member countries spanning the globe. Although not a member of the Commonwealth the USA is a child of the UK empire so it too would be included. Does that mean the UK has a right to control the affairs of Commonwealth countries? Pretty sure the US would disagree. Even Canada would disagree. Putin's wrong if he believes a common heritage gives him the right to dictate to the Ukrainian people.

I take your point Westy, but I think you are applying Canadian/American thinking to an FSU issue. This is where misunderstanding occurs. People who are broadly the same (Americans and British for example) can differ in how they think.

Over the years, I like to think I have a pretty good grasp of how Russians think [yes, I know they don't all think the same and in some respects that is an oxymoron]. My wife is fond of telling me I think like a Russian. What she calls "thinking like a Russian" I just call common sense. But, I find myself out of step with people who think a different way - which seems to be most people here. 

Then Estonians are right to worry about Russia invading? After all ethnic Russians in Estonia have complained about poor treatment by the Estonian government.

You claim to think so much like a Russian yet live in the UK. Surely you'd want to live in Russia. Have your family live a truly Russian lifestyle? It's just common sense, isn't it?

[Anteros]

They see that quality of life is better in the EU and want this for themselves.

EU membership was not on the table for Ukraine. They are a long, long way from that. While some of them may be EU aspirant, it was more of a dangled carrot for some indeterminate time in the future than a viable option in the short term. Ukraine will not be joining the EU any time soon. Russia was the one offering trade deals, cheap gas and entry to the customs union. The EU actually offered very little beyond words.

So why were they waving EU flags? Some people there really got the wrong end of the stick when this kicked off. It somehow became about the EU -v- Russia, which it never was.

Mind boggling isn't it.  Russia offered 15 Billion dollars and other concessions, and the Ukrainians still rejected it.  Guess not every "brother" likes a condescending Big Brother to tell them how to live their lives.

[Manny]

Ant, I seek one topic that offers our readers the alternative view to the stuff you guys get fed every day and seek to feed the rest of us. Continue to power-post your pro-America, anti-Putin links all over the site - without narrative - as you do already. 

So, no, I wont have this particular topic diluted with your copy/paste links/text, American propaganda and Wiki text as has been removed already (I think four times). It was crystal clear in the OP and I will say it again: This topic is for the view from the Russian side. And sensible discussion therefrom.

Hard to grasp I know, but you will probably catch up eventually, this topic is for the Russian point of view. Not for you to copy/paste stuff from Wikipedia. Try to write your own opinions and not seek to recycle the words of others.

[yankee]

They see that quality of life is better in the EU and want this for themselves.

EU membership was not on the table for Ukraine. They are a long, long way from that. While some of them may be EU aspirant, it was more of a dangled carrot for some indeterminate time in the future than a viable option in the short term. Ukraine will not be joining the EU any time soon. Russia was the one offering trade deals, cheap gas and entry to the customs union. The EU actually offered very little beyond words.

So why were they waving EU flags? Some people there really got the wrong end of the stick when this kicked off. It somehow became about the EU -v- Russia, which it never was.

Mind boggling isn't it.  Russia offered 15 Billion dollars and other concessions, and the Ukrainians still rejected it.  Guess not every "brother" likes a condescending Big Brother to tell them how to live their lives.

Maybe one should think of the people of Little Russia and not being very bright?

[Manny]

Mind boggling isn't it.  Russia offered 15 Billion dollars and other concessions, and the Ukrainians still rejected it.  Guess not every "brother" likes a condescending Big Brother to tell them how to live their lives.

Remind us how much America offered?

[Millaa]

Interesting point. Russia disagrees. Ukraine and Russia are brothers says Putin.

I think this is a big part of the issue. Most Ukrainians I know don't like the idea of being little brother to Russia.

Manny, thank you for starting such thread.
But after Odessa I'll not say much about ukraina. For too long we confuse the word "brother" and "yours" and "ukrainian" and "human being."

[Anteros]

Mind boggling isn't it.  Russia offered 15 Billion dollars and other concessions, and the Ukrainians still rejected it.  Guess not every "brother" likes a condescending Big Brother to tell them how to live their lives.

Remind us how much America offered?

Am I actually allowed to respond here or will you move or delete my post?

What the USA or the EU offered is irrelevant.  What is relevant?

1.  Yanukovych won election (narrowly) by promising the Ukrainian populace that he would sign some sort of agreement with the EU, which as you correctly stated was not full membership, not at all.
2.  Under pressure from Moscow Yanu decided to break that promise, and instead make a deal with Moscow.
3.  Common Ukrainians rose up and eventually Yanu fled, his palace was overrun.
4.  Putin not happy his stooge, his puppet no longer in power, takes over Crimea with heavily armed forces.
5.  Putin still stirring up violence and unrest in E. Ukraine; helicopters shot down with sophisticated surface to air missiles, not available to "peaceful protestors".
6.  Putin has now admitted he did indeed send in elite troops in the invasion of Crimea.

To sum up in a nutshell it is Ukraine who wishes to embrace and move closer to the West.  Regardless of how little financially the West has offered, they, the Ukrainians, prefer it.  Old Nationalist feelings of superiority from Russia they do not wish to submit to.  End of story.

[andrewfi]

Ant,  you are confusing different streams of thought and treating them as if they were part of the same ideas.

1) ownership of any business by a particular owner does not, in and of itself, mean that the owner promulgates the owners viewpoint.

2) lack of ownership of a business does not, in and of itself, mean that the business has the facility of independent action.

What you are doing is employing a mental kind of shorthand to,  you hope, remove the need to think about certain classes of ideas.
However, the analytical and thoughtful reader knows that, even if what you suggested made any kind of sense, that is still relevant to include those sources that you think are not independent in your critical reading. The objective reader can learn much from reading sources with which he does not agree. Objectively one can learn much even if one does not believe that which one is reading.

You need to understand that no news outlet or journal exists in a vacuum, it has  a constituency, a reality and a viewpoint. To learn the context of thought of that constituency one needs to understand the messages it receives.

In truth, if you read analytically and objectively then you'd come to understand that what you think you know you do not know. Maybe most importantly you'd come to understand that for all your thinking and posting in headlines and second hand opinions passed to you by your betters that the truth is that the situation for media in both the US and Russia is structurally similar. The mass media portray a limited range of views, often,  but not invariably sanctioned by the state.
It is my opinion that a singular difference between Russia and the US is level at which media is aimed. For example, years ago I used to work for a regional daily paper in the UK. I was not editorial staff but I often wrote stuff that appeared in the paper. My board level report was a known figure in the US newspaper industry and much of what we did was successfully influenced by what we learned from the US. Anyway, we had imported a simple rule that guided how content for the paper was written.
When writing for the paper we should always write for an audience that had no more than six years of schooling. If one wrote above that level then one would be writing beyond the ability of most readers to comprehend. Obviously my comprehension of Russian is not great, however it seems to me that Russian media routinely aim significantly higher and have greater expectations of their audience.

Basically Ant, don't be lazy and learn to challenge yourself. Don't accept what you are given. In life the easy stuff is usually the least worth having.

[Manny]

If you're going to use that argument then we should reset the boundaries of many countries the world over. The UK is the head of the Commonwealth of Nations with member countries spanning the globe. Although not a member of the Commonwealth the USA is a child of the UK empire so it too would be included. Does that mean the UK has a right to control the affairs of Commonwealth countries? Pretty sure the US would disagree. Even Canada would disagree. Putin's wrong if he believes a common heritage gives him the right to dictate to the Ukrainian people.

I take your point Westy, but I think you are applying Canadian/American thinking to an FSU issue. This is where misunderstanding occurs. People who are broadly the same (Americans and British for example) can differ in how they think.

Over the years, I like to think I have a pretty good grasp of how Russians think [yes, I know they don't all think the same and in some respects that is an oxymoron]. My wife is fond of telling me I think like a Russian. What she calls "thinking like a Russian" I just call common sense. But, I find myself out of step with people who think a different way - which seems to be most people here. 

Then Estonians are right to worry about Russia invading? After all ethnic Russians in Estonia have complained about poor treatment by the Estonian government.

You claim to think so much like a Russian yet live in the UK. Surely you'd want to live in Russia. Have your family live a truly Russian lifestyle? It's just common sense, isn't it?

Westy, you are just being facetious.

When you have spent as much time in the FSU as me, over a 15 year period, you can debate me. As we know, your knowledge is gleaned from your big comfy chair in Canada and Google. Not the same.

Fix a date. I'll meet you at Bocca in Tallinn. Then I'll know you have actually been to the FSU. Capiche?