Which countries make up Eastern Europe?

[Paul]

Which countries make up Eastern Europe?

Searching the net I get too many different answers. In a different thread RR says Poland is in Central Europe, if you visit Wikipedia RR is correct, if you visit About.com RR is wrong. Are Georgia and Armenia to be considered part of Eastern Europe or the Middle East? Now that Turkey has become a European country, are they Eastern European?

Eastern Europe according to About.com:

[Ladine]

Which countries make up Eastern Europe?

Searching the net I get too many different answers. In a different thread RR says Poland is in Central Europe, if you visit Wikipedia RR is correct, if you visit About.com RR is wrong. Are Georgia and Armenia to be considered part of Eastern Europe or the Middle East? Now that Turkey has become a European country, are they Eastern European?

Eastern Europe according to About.com:

(Attachment Link)

Paul. I think all the information is wrong. Russian YouTube and Wikipedia gives a very different information.Creation of the European Union was the idea of the country to which you would never think of and do not know it.

I know one thing that a smart person would never put myself in jeopardy the public. it will give the idea and will remain on the sidelines. and the EU. Only one country has such a mind that would not be a celebrity in it.

[Chris]

If you do some searching around, these tend to be the ones that come up that are in Eastern Europe:-

Albania, Belarus, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Moldova, Romania, Poland, Russia, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia and Ukraine, although some might argue a few of those are not actually in EE, but SouthEastern Europe, or The Baltics ?

and then when you look further you get:-

The most widely recognizes sub-regions of Eastern Europe include:

East Central Europe
The Baltics
Southeastern Europe/Balkans
Eastern Europe

The countries within these regions are as follows:

Russia
Czech Republic
Poland
Hungary
Romania and Moldova
Croatia
Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia
Slovenia
Slovakia
Bulgaria
Ukraine and Belarus
Serbia
Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Albania, Kosovo, and Macedonia

So make your own mind up 

[Manny]

Now that Turkey has become a European country, are they Eastern European?

In what sense do you regard Turkey as a European country?

[Larry]

I can think of two ways to determine what countries constitute Eastern Europe.  One is by looking at a map and dividing up the continent into equally sized sectors; you would then see in which sector a certain country was located.  The other is to look at whether historians, other writers, and perhaps citizens of the countries generally consider a particular country to be Eastern European or something else.  I am inclined toward the latter approach.

I suspect that in 1920 countries such as Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Hungary would generally have been put in the category Central Europe, or Middle Europe.  But I consider them Eastern European, perhaps because I grew up during the Cold War, when nearly everyone thought of Europe as being divided into two sections: Eastern and Western.  I think of Romania, Moldova, and Bulgaria also as being part of Eastern Europe.  The Balkan countries on the Adriatic Sea are an interesting case.  I'll have to do some more thinking about those countries and try to figure out whether I would call them Eastern European or Southern European.

It wouldn't surprise me that as the future of all these countries continue to diverge and memories of the Cold War become less vivid the old way of looking at the continent's geography will return.  RR grew up in the post Cold War world, so it's not surprising that the Cold War does not influence his thinking on this point.

Interesting question.

[Paul]

Now that Turkey has become a European country, are they Eastern European?

In what sense do you regard Turkey as a European country?

 

I don't regard Turkey as being a European country but I'm starting to see it listed or mentioned as one more and more in different locations on the net, in news papers, on TV, etc.

[Zachris]

In what sense do you regard Turkey as a European country?

The Ottoman Empire (and hence Turkey) was known as the "Old Man of Europe" from at least the middle 1800's, if not earlier. See: http://www.pbs.org/lawrenceofarabia/features/non_flash/ottoman1.html

That said, part of modern Turkey is located on the recognized continent of Europe. The smaller part, to be sure, but anything north of the Bosphorus has always been considered to be Europe. So, geographically, Turkey is at least as much a "European" nation as is Russia (which also has its larger portion in Asia).

Europe, of course, is more a frame of mind than an actual geographic entity. For example, at many times in history the peoples of Great Britain have distanced themselves from Europe, referencing Europe as France, Germany, etc. rather than their island. I bring this up only to point out that the concept of who is "european" changes with the times.

[Ste]

Now that Turkey has become a European country, are they Eastern European?

In what sense do you regard Turkey as a European country?

It's partly in Europe, like Russia!

[Paul]

I can think of two ways to determine what countries constitute Eastern Europe.  One is by looking at a map and dividing up the continent into equally sized sectors; you would then see in which sector a certain country was located.  The other is to look at whether historians, other writers, and perhaps citizens of the countries generally consider a particular country to be Eastern European or something else.  I am inclined toward the latter approach.

I suspect that in 1920 countries such as Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Hungary would generally have been put in the category Central Europe, or Middle Europe.  But I consider them Eastern European, perhaps because I grew up during the Cold War, when nearly everyone thought of Europe as being divided into two sections: Eastern and Western.  I think of Romania, Moldova, and Bulgaria also as being part of Eastern Europe.  The Balkan countries on the Adriatic Sea are an interesting case.  I'll have to do some more thinking about those countries and try to figure out whether I would call them Eastern European or Southern European.

This is the way I look at it as well. During the Cold War no one would have argued that East Germany wasn't in Eastern Europe.

[Chris]

Personally, I think Eastern Europe's borders are defined more by culture, religion and history than by geography.

[RichyRich]

Germany (straddles West and Central Europe), Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Austria and Hungary are all in Central Europe, I don't know where you went to school and who you had for geography or who you've met from those countries but everyone I've met from those countries consider the countries to be Central much like my geography teachers did. I know with Bulgaria, Moldova and Romania (although open to dispute on who you talk to), they're South-East Europe and the former Yugoslavian countries are pretty much Southern Europe.

Turkey is not European, I'd never class that country as European nor as part of Europe, I mean come on, it's Turkey and in Asia with a tiny piece in Europe, also they don't share our customs or values so yes not European!

[Manny]

Now that Turkey has become a European country, are they Eastern European?

In what sense do you regard Turkey as a European country?

It's partly in Europe, like Russia!

He said "Now that" - which would imply they weren't before (not that they are now in any real sense).

Personally, I think Eastern Europe's borders are defined more by culture, religion and history than by geography.

Yes, I would agree with that.

[Ste]

Taking about Turkey per se - wasn't it historically more in Europe? Ottoman Empire and Attaturk etc? Possibly more European than Russia...

[Larry]

Taking about Turkey per se - wasn't it historically more in Europe? Ottoman Empire and Attaturk etc? Possibly more European than Russia...

The Ottoman Empire conquered and ruled a fairly large part of Europe, almost to Vienna, by the 17th century, then gradually lost it during the course of the next two centuries or so, finally ending up at the close of the first world war keeping only that tiny bit of Europe that it currently possesses.

During this time the Turks fought the Russians several times, losing every war if my memory isn't faulty.

But the Ottoman Empire was never as European as Russia.  Even after the first world war with the Kemalist reforms Turkey was still not as European in orientation as was Russia.

[Rasputin]

I would define Central Europe as the territories of the Holy Roman Empire and would throw in Hungary.

[Ste]

Actually thinking about it from what I seem to know from school uni etc - not google or wiki like most of the stuff on here wasn't Europe more historically Islamic than you'd think?

I'm thinking of Ottoman Empire and the Moors in Spain, plus the former Yugoslav republics? Muslim....

Or was that another thread?

[Zachris]

During this time the Turks fought the Russians several times, losing every war if my memory isn't faulty.

Faulty memory. Crimean War -- Britain, France and Ottomans vs Russia. Russia lost.

You could also, sort of, count WWI. Russia lost (withdrew) before the Ottomans did. In this case, both empires were torn apart by internal conflicts that were kind of ancillary to the whole war effort. But, from a Turkish Nationalist perspective, Turkey won because the result was an independent Turkey that was no longer subservient to the Ottoman Empire. Sort of the same philosophy of the liberation of modern Russia made it no longer subservient to the Soviet Union.

People equate Turks with Ottomans in the same way we used to equate Russians with Soviets. OK at a first level of approximation. But by not means the same thing.

[Larry]

Faulty memory. Crimean War -- Britain, France and Ottomans vs Russia. Russia lost.

No, I meant the Turks lost the wars they fought with the Russians.  The Crimean war was mainly won by the British and French, the two most effective military powers of the day, with some assistance from Austria.  If the Turks had not attracted the support of Britain and France they would have lost this war as they lost the other wars against the Russians.

[Zachris]

Faulty memory. Crimean War -- Britain, France and Ottomans vs Russia. Russia lost.

No, I meant the Turks lost the wars they fought with the Russians.  The Crimean war was mainly won by the British and French, the two most effective military powers of the day, with some assistance from Austria.  If the Turks had not attracted the support of Britain and France they would have lost this war as they lost the other wars against the Russians.

Well, then, as I pointed out the Turks have never had a war against Russia. The Ottomans did, but the Turks never.

[Larry]

Well, then, as I pointed out the Turks have never had a war against Russia. The Ottomans did, but the Turks never.

Pedantry.  I think it was pretty clear that I was writing informally to refer to the Ottoman Turks fighting the Russians.

[Vinnvinny]

Like RR I consider CZ. Hungary, Poland, Slovakia as Central Europe with Ukraine, Russia and the Stans as Eastern Europe. Turkey play European football and want to be in the European Union, so I guess they must be awfully close.

[mhr7]

Last time I was in Erzurum, Turkey (eastern Turkey) the buses had signs on them proclaiming it as a European city.
Also, the Georgians definitely consider themselves to be in Europe.

[Zachris]

Well, then, as I pointed out the Turks have never had a war against Russia. The Ottomans did, but the Turks never.

Pedantry.  I think it was pretty clear that I was writing informally to refer to the Ottoman Turks fighting the Russians.

Pedantry perhaps, but the whole point of my post was that Turk does not equal Ottoman. You seem to have complete dismissed that point.

And so, I say again, the Ottoman Turks never fought a war with Russia. Some Turks may have been members of the Ottoman Army during some wars, but then so were Hashemites, and Mamlukes and Egyptians and Armenians and Serbians and so on. And to be clear Osman (founding ruler of the Ottoman Empire) was a Seljuk, which is a type of Turk but not all Turks are Seljuks.

Oh, and saying that the Crimean War does not count because the Ottomans had Britain and France on their side is analogous to saying that the Soviet Union did not defeat Germany during WWII because they had the USA and Britain on their side. In the Crimean War the number of British, French and Ottoman soldiers involved were pretty equal. I believe Ottoman dead outnumber all other nations involved in that conflict.

Yes, maybe I am splitting hairs here and belaboring a point. But, isn't that the whole point of this thread?

I mean, if others can play, why can't I?

Or rather, we? I guess that makes it your turn .

[Paul]

So I'm sitting here this morning searching a stock image website for an "Eastern Europe" picture that I can use on one of my websites and Facebook page... the search results are returning photos of mosque after mosque and general photo after photo from Turkey 

[Manny]

So I'm sitting here this morning searching a stock image website for an "Eastern Europe" picture that I can use on one of my websites and Facebook page... the search results are returning photos of mosque after mosque and general photo after photo from Turkey 

You might be better finding one someone has posted here that they took themselves. Wont be an issue using it if you find something.