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Author Topic: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$  (Read 9170 times)

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Offline tfcrew

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Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« on: May 22, 2013, 09:52:38 AM »
Most info online is 3 to 10 yrs old.
We would like to do a certificate of deposit or something as substantial.
Wells Fargo is not there, so dumped that hope.
Anyone have the latest in methods?
 

Offline leslied

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Re: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2013, 02:43:13 PM »
Hi,

Trying to do this legally is going to be big struggle.  Legal export of foreign currency requires permission of the Ukraine National Bank.  You can try to go this way but it is likely to be a time consuming and expensive process...

Most people we know who sold property in Ukraine converted Hrivna to hard currency on the black market and brought the money out in  $10k chunks (legal)  or smuggled larger amounts.  Gold is also an option.

I know one woman who got a credit card from A Ukraine bank and withdrew cash on it abroad (and bought things) paying the monthly balance off in Hrivna until the proceeds from the sale of her flat were gone !

Another option would be to purchase bonds which can be traded abroad.  This used to be possible with Russian bonds but I am not sure of the situation now. 

Hope this is of some help.

Offline tfcrew

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Re: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2013, 11:10:51 PM »
Thanks lesli and to those who wrote  by personal message.

Svetlana is a resourceful lady and will figure something out.

She was a manager of a major milk producer there in Odessa.

Precious metals are not a option because she wouldn't want to fool with it.

She has had over $ 800 ATM cards from time to time it had be recharged once but it expired...or if she has to leave some $ in a bnk  account there then so it will be.. One can bring out x amount when they fly back ??
I think $10,000  :money:


Offline Manny

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Re: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2013, 03:05:27 AM »
Are there currency controls in Ukraine preventing a simple bank transfer?
Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<< - Read a trip report from South Korea, China and Hong Kong >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.

Offline JayH

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Re: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2013, 03:48:28 AM »
Are there currency controls in Ukraine preventing a simple bank transfer?

Yes. Even a business  making legitimate stock purchase has so much red tape that it makes it very difficult to do.
I am reluctant to try and provide a link with some information that may assist. :)

Offline Manny

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Re: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2013, 07:49:52 AM »
Can money freely be transferred into Russia from Ukraine?
Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<< - Read a trip report from South Korea, China and Hong Kong >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.

Offline ashbyclarke

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Re: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2013, 08:03:33 AM »
Are there currency controls in Ukraine preventing a simple bank transfer?

Yes. Even a business  making legitimate stock purchase has so much red tape that it makes it very difficult to do.
I am reluctant to try and provide a link with some information that may assist. :)

Jay, many Ukraine businesses make purchases from other countries including china, Germany and even here in England.

I've not heard of there being a problem with it.

What's your experience, or where you read about it?

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Offline leslied

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Re: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2013, 10:12:20 AM »
Really the only people who should be commenting here are people who know, or have personal experience in exporting foreign currency from Ukraine.

The Ukraine Hrivna is not exchangeable internationally.  Ukraine has VERY strict foreign exchange regulations.  Problem is not importing foreign exchange (Please !!) it is exporting foreign exchange.

Legal foreign currency export from Ukraine requires permission/license from the National Bank of Ukraine. See

http://www.bank.gov.ua/control/en/publish/article?art_id=81604

Getting this permission is notoriously difficult (and expensive!).  It is the main reason why we have not made any property investments in Ukraine.

Russia is a global economy and the situation there is entirely different.  In the past the easiest method was to export money from Ukraine to Russia and transfer internationally from there.  However this route has been tightened recently and I am not sure of the current situation.

One of my wife's friend's works in Financial Services in Moscow.  We are meeting her this weekend.  I will ask her advice on this situation and pass it on via PM TFCrew. :thumbsup:

Offline Kimosabe

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Re: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2013, 09:35:23 PM »
I have taken up to $50,000 USD out of Ukraine in my carry-on luggage. Even reported it coming into the US, they said people do this all the time.
Are you asking about moving more than this amount out of Ukraine?

Offline tfcrew

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Re: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2013, 10:19:23 PM »
I would have figured that the realtor agent would have the FUNDS xfer savy down. ...perhaps.
The Mrs will be returning 15 more days.
Leslis link had contained this info  ...
Quote
The National System of Mass Electronic Payments is a domestic banking multi-issuing mass electronic payment system, in which all payments for goods and services, receiving cash and other transactions are carried out by means of smart cards, incorporating technology developed by the National Bank of Ukraine.

The NSMEP is a modern, high-tech and highly protected system. The key element of the system is a smart card. The NSMEP payment cards have a high level of protection against unauthorized access. The high level of confidence in this system is based upon the guaranteed software protection of chip-based payment cards and acknowledged security of transactions, which is confirmed by the increasing volume of transactions involving payment cards and their growing issuance.

The NSMEP introduction enabled the citizens of Ukraine to pay for goods and services on cashless basis and withdraw cash with the help of special means of payment (payment cards, mobile payment instruments, etc.), as well as to keep and accumulate their savings on current accounts with banks.

That page is
http://www.bank.gov.ua/control/en/publish/article?art_id=77029&cat_id=37439

Maybe I've seen too many movies but carrying thousands of dollars around from flight to flight these days would remind me of Midnight Express meets Pablo Escobar.... And the worst of them all is the TSA!

 Best go with the smart card. 
No doubt there is a courtesy payment [bribe] to the bank but Western Union is a lot worse.

We'll see
Karl

Offline Odessarents

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Re: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2013, 12:29:33 AM »
I would not try to take money out of Ukraine in a suitcase , that is a violation of the Ukraine customs law and the money will be taken and possible criminal charges and the money confiscated, money transfers you can transfer money in to Ukraine and the amount of money that can be wired out of Ukraine can be no more then the amount you have wired into your account in the Ukrainian bank unless you are a business enty, so if you wire in 100,000.00 you can wire that amount back out.

http://www.bank.gov.ua/control/en/publish/category?cat_id=57504

Import and Export of Currency

Ukrainian customs regulations place strict limits on the amount of cash and/or previous metals that may be brought in to or taken out of Ukraine by an individual.  In general, individuals may bring in or take out the equivalent of 10,000 Euro (at the official National Bank of Ukraine exchange rate) which is about 13,000.00 US  without a written customs declaration.  Amounts exceeding 10,000 Euro must be declared.  Failure to do so may result in seizure of the undeclared currency or precious metals as well as criminal liability.

Here is a away you can get the money out , You can open a bank account that gives you a debit card , My account is in Dollars and  gives me access to withdrawl 10,000.00 dollars a day no matter where i am in the world

Offline welder

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Re: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2013, 01:27:16 AM »

Here is a away you can get the money out , You can open a bank account that gives you a debit card , My account is in Dollars and  gives me access to withdrawl 10,000.00 dollars a day no matter where i am in the world

BoK, was that a business account or a personal account? 

Offline Odessarents

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Re: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2013, 04:05:38 AM »

Here is a away you can get the money out , You can open a bank account that gives you a debit card , My account is in Dollars and  gives me access to withdrawl 10,000.00 dollars a day no matter where i am in the world

BoK, was that a business account or a personal account?

 a personal account  I have a debit card that i can withdrawl 10,000.00 dollars a day

Online andrewfi

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Re: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2013, 04:29:42 AM »
I can see using a debit card working for small amounts, maybe €60K or 70K taken out under the posted limit daily for a few days.

I know that anyone doing this would NOT be the first to do so. Given that a large part of the reason for setting limits is that US sponsored 'money laundering' stuff and that is all about Visa/Mastercard with US ties.

If such a series of transfers were flagged and interrupted, what would happen to any untransferred residue in Ukraine?

I am not saying that such a thing can't work, people live this way all the time and for personal use it makes sense to do this - indeed in the waybackwhen I had a girlfriend who lived on remittances that way for several years receiving money from a Mid-East country in a state of turmoil, but for the movement of 'proper amounts' I think that some careful checking and research is needed.
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Offline RichyRich

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Re: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2013, 07:07:36 AM »
From reading around you can transfer 15,000 Hryvnia ($1,800) per day outside Ukraine although it will be converted into local currency of the account it is going to, to do so requires going into the bank and making a request each time which is tiresome and will most likely raise a few eyebrows after a while.

I'd personally try and get a EUR/USD bank account which offers you a debit card with no restrictions upon usage outside Ukraine and has a high withdrawal limit (not sure how possible this is though) so when the lady in question leaves she can not only spend as she pleases but withdraw as much as possible and place the money into a more flexible bank outside Ukraine (depending on amounts [lowest is £25,000 with Lloyds] the UK is actually quite good for banking if your a non-resident/citizen and she'll avoid hassle with the Americans :-X).

Online andrewfi

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Re: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2013, 07:19:28 AM »
RR, as somebody noted getting a card with a $10K daily limit is available in Ukraine. Here I can do similar:  €10K. The thing is that although this would be at or below international money laundering limits a frequent, regular use of a debit card at these levels will, I am pretty sure, get flagged and, even if one is not using a US account the payment processor is still almost certain to be either Mastercard or Visa and, as we have seen in other cases, they DO follow US 'advice' and operate within the eco-system of US banking.

Before doing something like this I'd be taking a close look at the realities behind ongoing transfers of large amounts in this manner. The very wealthy might have high enough personal spending to work through €10K per day but not too many mortals.
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Offline Ladine

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Re: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2013, 07:52:42 AM »
Hey. guys. In Ukraine, already a new position. to 12 December 2012 introduced a tax on sale of foreign currency (dollars). it is already running. So far have not gone into this category Russian ruble. Ukraine has no problem doing shopping in other countries. but here rightly said. This is a big red tape. but we already have internal credit cards are taking other countries.
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Offline Ladine

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Re: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2013, 07:58:19 AM »
but I will say that the people of Ukraine are very rational. and will not resort to the law that would feed the state. because the state does not care about these people and you can always find a way to smuggle any money. No matter what the amount.

Our people category lower than good income very pragmatic and rational.
our law has a big enough hole that would not feed the ministers of our country.
smart will learn - a fool would teach.
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Offline RichyRich

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Re: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2013, 09:30:44 AM »
RR, as somebody noted getting a card with a $10K daily limit is available in Ukraine. Here I can do similar:  €10K. The thing is that although this would be at or below international money laundering limits a frequent, regular use of a debit card at these levels will, I am pretty sure, get flagged and, even if one is not using a US account the payment processor is still almost certain to be either Mastercard or Visa and, as we have seen in other cases, they DO follow US 'advice' and operate within the eco-system of US banking.

Before doing something like this I'd be taking a close look at the realities behind ongoing transfers of large amounts in this manner. The very wealthy might have high enough personal spending to work through €10K per day but not too many mortals.
So its available? the money laundering limit is 10k of whatever currency (for UK at least). The fact that the card is MasterCard or Visa is at the end of the day irrelevant as it is down to the issuing bank to flag up suspected money laundering not the payment system (I have had experience in this area :innocent:). If they were to withdraw the money over a few months and place into a UK International account (choice of currencies) where the money would be safe, they'd virtually skip out on US financial reporting (unless the money is being withdrawn and then deposited by a USC in which case that is illegal as I understand it, someone else would need to clarify that).

It is doable but never withdraw the maximum and always alternate how much you withdraw on a daily basis. The UK banks won't care where the money comes from unless you're depositing large amounts into a bog standard account. It might be useful to look at a dummy/holding company as well (again the UK is most likely one of the best locations for non-UK citizens/residents, also incredibly cheap to set up). So long as the money is from a legal sale and you just want to move it to a safer location or have greater spending power outside of Ukraine there shouldn't be anything wrong with what you wish to do.

Offline Manny

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Re: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2013, 09:49:20 AM »
If they were to withdraw the money over a few months and place into a UK International account (choice of currencies) where the money would be safe, they'd virtually skip out on US financial reporting (unless the money is being withdrawn and then deposited by a USC in which case that is illegal as I understand it, someone else would need to clarify that).

For those subject to American law, that is called 'structuring' I believe. And like many things there, is illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structuring
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Online andrewfi

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Re: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2013, 11:30:17 AM »
Sadly RR you are wrong. Manny touched on one issue but Mastercard & Visa, indeed any payment network has a duty under US law to flag up suspicious transactions. The kind of transactions that a regime of moving real estate proceeds by daily/regular transfers would entail would raise a flag, it is exactly what is being looked for.

In truth, while the thought may not be palatable to the gentil reader, if using plastic to smuggle money to avoid taxation is the process then money laundering is exactly what is going on.
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Offline welder

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Re: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2013, 12:40:22 PM »
Sadly RR you are wrong. Manny touched on one issue but Mastercard & Visa, indeed any payment network has a duty under US law to flag up suspicious transactions. The kind of transactions that a regime of moving real estate proceeds by daily/regular transfers would entail would raise a flag, it is exactly what is being looked for.

RR, Ukraine is already flagged as a probable country for money laundering and hence higher scrutiny.  Dont believe.....contact any of your offshore facilities in the UK, Jersey Islands, and attempt to open an account being a Ukrainian passport holder.  Truth of the matter is transactions of the type mentioned by Andrew are flagged because of the source.   

That was the reason I asked BoU the account type.  For business accounts there is some lattitude provided a history has been established.  Even in these cases it may take a few days to clear the funds if it is a lump sum transfer.  Big brother can always audit the banking activities of the business.

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Re: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2013, 12:56:26 PM »
Sell and Run and don't look behind you! or better yet don't buy at all in Odessa or any place in UA!  Buy American...

Offline Anteros

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Re: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2013, 01:04:01 PM »
Sell and Run and don't look behind you! or better yet don't buy at all in Odessa or any place in UA!  Buy American...

Says the troll who spent 25K writing letters.
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

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Re: Selling property in Odessa..best way to xfer $$
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2013, 01:06:32 PM »
Yeah Anthros but I recovered all!