Is Ukraine a Failed State?

[Manny]

Unlike Russia we’re not there to steal land from FSU neighbors, we’re there to protect our partners in NATO who want to maintain their sovereignty.

Tell us when Ukraine joined NATO then?

Tell us while you are about it why NATO even still exists as the entity it was created to protect the rest of Europe from doesn't exist any more?

Surely you dont *really* believe that any of these countries you are currently occupying like Estonia are actually under any kind of threat?

The US is the world's most prolific terrorist state. You maraud around the world invading country after country, killing leaders and funding coups while telling yourselves killing millions of people is the harbinger of some kind of "freedom". In fact, you are utterly destroying countries (eg Libya). Your media and sanction machine is positioned at Russia because they are the only ones that stood up to you and thwarted your last two attempts at interventions (Ukraine and Syria). As you never take on nations who can defend themselves (eg North Korea) the 'warfare' with Russia is more insidious and devious. The only way to rein you lot in without a major war is to de-dollarise, which many countries are doing. It's a process.........

[Contrarian]

Unlike Russia we’re not there to steal land from FSU neighbors, we’re there to protect our partners in NATO who want to maintain their sovereignty.

Tell us when Ukraine joined NATO then?

Tell us while you are about it why NATO even still exists as the entity it was created to protect the rest of Europe from doesn't exist any more?

Surely you dont *really* believe that any of these countries you are currently occupying like Estonia are actually under any kind of threat?

The US is the world's most prolific terrorist state. You maraud around the world invading country after country, killing leaders and funding coups while telling yourselves killing millions of people is the harbinger of some kind of "freedom". In fact, you are utterly destroying countries (eg Libya). Your media and sanction machine is positioned at Russia because they are the only ones that stood up to you and thwarted your last two attempts at interventions (Ukraine and Syria). As you never take on nations who can defend themselves (eg North Korea) the 'warfare' with Russia is more insidious and devious. The only way to rein you lot in without a major war is to de-dollarise, which many countries are doing. It's a process.........

The USA is “occupying” Estonia?

                     

In regards to Libya you’ve got a good point, except that we’re not discussing Libya or elsewhere, we’re discussing Ukraine.

Obviously Russia would like Ukraine to be failed. Like an abusive husband who cannot have his former wife, Russia also does not want Ukraine to grow and prosper. Which is why you push the ridiculous theory that Ukraine is “failed”.

quoting B/B
Of course, your WHATABOUT-ism is merely a distraction and we both know that (a) it has zero bearing on the subject at hand, and (b)Russia invaded Crimea and continues to destabilize Eastern Ukraine.

De-Dollarization? 

The longer Putin tries to greedily steal what belongs to others the more damage he does to his own economy. 

[B.B.]

By mentioning the Nuland woman you are showing us that you know that your lot overthrew the elected president and are now backsliding with the usual Russophobic rhetoric.

I mention the Nuland woman to poke fun at your position.

Oh, and calling me "Russophobic" is the RUA equivalent of the Leftoids shrieking "ISLAMOPHOBE!" at anyone who says Perfectly True and Applicable Things about the Pedo-Death Cult.

I actually rather like Russia and Russians, I simply not blind to the actions of the Russian government.

If you lot kept your snout out of world affairs things would be more peaceful.

If we kept our snout out of world affairs, you'd be farming turnips for Stalin or celebrating you 70th+ year of being Germany's bitch, and there'd be a statue of Oswald Mosley outside of Parliament.

Your intervention in Ukraine failed and you didn't get the prize (access to Sevastopol). And your attempted regime change in Syria also failed. 

Dafuq do we need Sebastopol for?  We could simply blockade the Bosporus and that would be that, assuming that's what we wanted to do.  Control of the Crimea and   ing with Ukraine are VASTLY more important to Putin than they are to the US, which is why he can get away with doing it: we don't care.

You'd be surprised how little Americans give a shit about Syria.  Again, vastly more important Russia.

Stuff changed. Best you folks stay home and start building that southern wall. 

The only thing that's changed is that we now have a president who expects the Europeans to pull their own weight. 

Who knew that all it took were donuts?

 

Evidently, Dunkin has replace McD's as America's "Rapid Deployment Force" of cultural imperialism! 

Tell us when Ukraine joined NATO then?

Confederate mentioned Rumania, which joined NATO in 2004.

Indeed, one might inquire as to why EVERY member of the Warsaw Pact not named "Russia" is now in NATO.  That's not a coincidence. 

Tell us while you are about it why NATO even still exists as the entity it was created to protect the rest of Europe from doesn't exist any more?

The problem of Russian nationalism continues.  They just aren't in the same position to be able to inflict it upon others.

Surely you dont *really* believe that any of these countries you are currently occupying like Estonia are actually under any kind of threat?

The only credible defense Estonia and similarly situated countries have against possible Russian aggression is to point to Article 5 of the NATO Treaty.

NATO countries may freely exit the Alliance at any time.  If the Baltic nations felt that Russia did not, or was not, capable of posing a threat to them - and if there were any doubt, they could simply inquire of the Ukrainians - they are free to leave NATO.

None of them have.  I wonder why that is....

The US is the world's most prolific terrorist state. You maraud around the world invading country after country, killing leaders and funding coups while telling yourselves killing millions of people is the harbinger of some kind of "freedom". In fact, you are utterly destroying countries (eg Libya). Your media and sanction machine is positioned at Russia because they are the only ones that stood up to you and thwarted your last two attempts at interventions (Ukraine and Syria). As you never take on nations who can defend themselves (eg North Korea) the 'warfare' with Russia is more insidious and devious. The only way to rein you lot in without a major war is to de-dollarise, which many countries are doing. It's a process.........

Manny, go have a lie-down.  You're having one of your 'spells'....

B/B

[Contrarian]

By mentioning the Nuland woman you are showing us that you know that your lot overthrew the elected president and are now backsliding with the usual Russophobic rhetoric.

I mention the Nuland woman to poke fun at your position.

Oh, and calling me "Russophobic" is the RUA equivalent of the Leftoids shrieking "ISLAMOPHOBE!" at anyone who says Perfectly True and Applicable Things about the Pedo-Death Cult.

I actually rather like Russia and Russians, I simply not blind to the actions of the Russian government.

If you lot kept your snout out of world affairs things would be more peaceful.

If we kept our snout out of world affairs, you'd be farming turnips for Stalin or celebrating you 70th+ year of being Germany's bitch, and there'd be a statue of Oswald Mosley outside of Parliament.

Your intervention in Ukraine failed and you didn't get the prize (access to Sevastopol). And your attempted regime change in Syria also failed. 

Dafuq do we need Sebastopol for?  We could simply blockade the Bosporus and that would be that, assuming that's what we wanted to do.  Control of the Crimea and  ing with Ukraine are VASTLY more important to Putin than they are to the US, which is why he can get away with doing it: we don't care.

You'd be surprised how little Americans give a shit about Syria.  Again, vastly more important Russia.

Stuff changed. Best you folks stay home and start building that southern wall. 

The only thing that's changed is that we now have a president who expects the Europeans to pull their own weight. 

Who knew that all it took were donuts?

 

Evidently, Dunkin has replace McD's as America's "Rapid Deployment Force" of cultural imperialism! 

Tell us when Ukraine joined NATO then?

Confederate mentioned Rumania, which joined NATO in 2004.

Indeed, one might inquire as to why EVERY member of the Warsaw Pact not named "Russia" is now in NATO.  That's not a coincidence. 

Tell us while you are about it why NATO even still exists as the entity it was created to protect the rest of Europe from doesn't exist any more?

The problem of Russian nationalism continues.  They just aren't in the same position to be able to inflict it upon others.

Surely you dont *really* believe that any of these countries you are currently occupying like Estonia are actually under any kind of threat?

The only credible defense Estonia and similarly situated countries have against possible Russian aggression is to point to Article 5 of the NATO Treaty.

NATO countries may freely exit the Alliance at any time.  If the Baltic nations felt that Russia did not, or was not, capable of posing a threat to them - and if there were any doubt, they could simply inquire of the Ukrainians - they are free to leave NATO.

None of them have.  I wonder why that is....

The US is the world's most prolific terrorist state. You maraud around the world invading country after country, killing leaders and funding coups while telling yourselves killing millions of people is the harbinger of some kind of "freedom". In fact, you are utterly destroying countries (eg Libya). Your media and sanction machine is positioned at Russia because they are the only ones that stood up to you and thwarted your last two attempts at interventions (Ukraine and Syria). As you never take on nations who can defend themselves (eg North Korea) the 'warfare' with Russia is more insidious and devious. The only way to rein you lot in without a major war is to de-dollarise, which many countries are doing. It's a process.........

Manny, go have a lie-down.  You're having one of your 'spells'....

B/B

Boom! “Every former Warsaw Pact nation now a member of NATO”. Ouch!

[msmoby]

[
Oh, and calling me "Russophobic" is the RUA equivalent of the Leftoids shrieking "ISLAMOPHOBE!" at anyone who says Perfectly True and Applicable Things about the Pedo-Death Cult.

I actually rather like Russia and Russians, I simply not blind to the actions of the Russian government.

Not QUITE the analogy I'd use - but the last sentence PERFECTLY describes my stance, too

If you lot kept your snout out of world affairs things would be more peaceful.

I missed where the USA was occupying any part of a state formerly run by Moscow ...

[leslied]

Well, I am not getting into an argument with an attorney.  I know I would lose.

American imperialism has been around for 70+ years.  Americans truly believe that the world should adopt American values - whether they like it or not...

Here is a Tom Lehrer song which sums up this viewpoint in the 60's.  Things have not changed much since then 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFvxqQTh3m4

Enjoy 

[Steveboy]

By mentioning the Nuland woman you are showing us that you know that your lot overthrew the elected president and are now backsliding with the usual Russophobic rhetoric.

I mention the Nuland woman to poke fun at your position.

Oh, and calling me "Russophobic" is the RUA equivalent of the Leftoids shrieking "ISLAMOPHOBE!" at anyone who says Perfectly True and Applicable Things about the Pedo-Death Cult.

I actually rather like Russia and Russians, I simply not blind to the actions of the Russian government.

If you lot kept your snout out of world affairs things would be more peaceful.

If we kept our snout out of world affairs, you'd be farming turnips for Stalin or celebrating you 70th+ year of being Germany's bitch, and there'd be a statue of Oswald Mosley outside of Parliament.

Your intervention in Ukraine failed and you didn't get the prize (access to Sevastopol). And your attempted regime change in Syria also failed. 

Dafuq do we need Sebastopol for?  We could simply blockade the Bosporus and that would be that, assuming that's what we wanted to do.  Control of the Crimea and  ing with Ukraine are VASTLY more important to Putin than they are to the US, which is why he can get away with doing it: we don't care.

You'd be surprised how little Americans give a shit about Syria.  Again, vastly more important Russia.

Stuff changed. Best you folks stay home and start building that southern wall. 

The only thing that's changed is that we now have a president who expects the Europeans to pull their own weight. 

Who knew that all it took were donuts?

 

Evidently, Dunkin has replace McD's as America's "Rapid Deployment Force" of cultural imperialism! 

Tell us when Ukraine joined NATO then?

Confederate mentioned Rumania, which joined NATO in 2004.

Indeed, one might inquire as to why EVERY member of the Warsaw Pact not named "Russia" is now in NATO.  That's not a coincidence. 

Tell us while you are about it why NATO even still exists as the entity it was created to protect the rest of Europe from doesn't exist any more?

The problem of Russian nationalism continues.  They just aren't in the same position to be able to inflict it upon others.

Surely you dont *really* believe that any of these countries you are currently occupying like Estonia are actually under any kind of threat?

The only credible defense Estonia and similarly situated countries have against possible Russian aggression is to point to Article 5 of the NATO Treaty.

NATO countries may freely exit the Alliance at any time.  If the Baltic nations felt that Russia did not, or was not, capable of posing a threat to them - and if there were any doubt, they could simply inquire of the Ukrainians - they are free to leave NATO.

None of them have.  I wonder why that is....

The US is the world's most prolific terrorist state. You maraud around the world invading country after country, killing leaders and funding coups while telling yourselves killing millions of people is the harbinger of some kind of "freedom". In fact, you are utterly destroying countries (eg Libya). Your media and sanction machine is positioned at Russia because they are the only ones that stood up to you and thwarted your last two attempts at interventions (Ukraine and Syria). As you never take on nations who can defend themselves (eg North Korea) the 'warfare' with Russia is more insidious and devious. The only way to rein you lot in without a major war is to de-dollarise, which many countries are doing. It's a process.........

Manny, go have a lie-down.  You're having one of your 'spells'....

B/B

NATO countries may freely exit the Alliance at any time. What like a Brexit.. oh yeah...

[Manny]

Strange that Finland that borders Russia together with nearby Sweden did not join NATO though, eh? 

I missed where the USA was occupying any part of a state formerly run by Moscow ...

Locals in Estonia by and large dont welcome the US military there. You'll recall in some eastern european countries people were out demonstrating against and blockading them as they passed through their towns.

There were many protests and blockades when that daft convoy lark was going on, the western media was silent on it of course and only showed the other side.

[Contrarian]

Well, I am not getting into an argument with an attorney.  I know I would lose.

American imperialism has been around for 70+ years.  Americans truly believe that the world should adopt American values - whether they like it or not...

Here is a Tom Lehrer song which sums up this viewpoint in the 60's.  Things have not changed much since then 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFvxqQTh3m4

Enjoy 

I love that song! 

[Steveboy]

Strange that Finland that borders Russia together with nearby Sweden did not join NATO though, eh? 

I missed where the USA was occupying any part of a state formerly run by Moscow ...

Locals in Estonia by and large dont welcome the US military there. You'll recall in some eastern european countries people were out demonstrating against and blockading them as they passed through their towns.

There were many protests and blockades when that daft convoy lark was going on, the western media was silent on it of course and only showed the other side.

When they were in Moldova they put the US flags out, that caused lots of problems..

These twats.. why do they feel the need to put their pathetic flag up..who even needs the idiots driving about like a bunch of clowns..

[Contrarian]

Strange that Finland that borders Russia together with nearby Sweden did not join NATO though, eh? 

On the one hand they don’t want to provoke the much larger Russian bear. They did lose a large part of Karelia to Russia.

On the other hand the Finns perfected the Molotov cocktail and beat back a Russian invasion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

[Manny]

Strange that Finland that borders Russia together with nearby Sweden did not join NATO though, eh? 

On the one hand they don’t want to provoke the much larger Russian bear. They did lose a large part of Karelia to Russia.

On the other hand the Finns perfected the Molotov cocktail and beat back a Russian invasion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

1939. Stop being silly. 

[Contrarian]

Strange that Finland that borders Russia together with nearby Sweden did not join NATO though, eh? 

On the one hand they don’t want to provoke the much larger Russian bear. They did lose a large part of Karelia to Russia.

On the other hand the Finns perfected the Molotov cocktail and beat back a Russian invasion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

1939. Stop being silly. 

Not silly at all! Finland knows what Russia is capable of (as does Poland for example) however Finland correctly believes their political and economic issues are better by remaining neutral.

[Manny]

In other words, they dont feel threatened because there is no threat. This Russian threat malarkey is all made up nonsense.

[AvHdB]

There were many protests and blockades when that daft convoy lark was going on, the western media was silent on it of course and only showed the other side.

Nice to see Vladimir Lenin Putin on a flag. Sort of reminds me of all those happy-clappy citizens of the Czechoslovakia and Hungary who 'welcomed' the troops from the Kremlin a while back.

[dcguyusa]

I missed where the USA was occupying any part of a state formerly run by Moscow ...

I am not sure if this would qualify as "occupation", but the USA "colluded"    with the Afghan resistance forces against the Taliban.  The Taliban, having earlier, taken over Afghanistan after the departure of USSR forces earlier.  USSR helped to set up a pro-Soviet leader (Babrak Karmal) in Kabul.

[AvHdB]

Strange that Finland that borders Russia together with nearby Sweden did not join NATO though, eh? 

On the one hand they don’t want to provoke the much larger Russian bear. They did lose a large part of Karelia to Russia.

On the other hand the Finns perfected the Molotov cocktail and beat back a Russian invasion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

1939. Stop being silly. 

Yesterday marked the 'Miracle at/on the Vistula'

Vladimir Lenin wanted to export Communism to Western Europe, and after destroying the newly formed Ukraine nation overrunning Kiev he aimed sights on Berlin and Paris. This he planned after conquering Warsaw and the Polish people. He expected the local populations would support his aims.

His troops pushed on, defeating and destroying large parts of the Polish military. Only within 20 miles were the Polish troops able to regroup and than throughly rout the Russians. The defeat marked for a time the end of military adventures of the leaders of the Kremlin.

There is an odd footnote, Jozef Stalin who was also a leader in this military adventure defied orders and attempted for his own vanity seize L'viv/Lvov. That also did not work out well.

[d672]

In other words, they dont feel threatened because there is no threat. This Russian threat malarkey is all made up nonsense.

 Lol, and yet the US threat in Crimea is not! 

If you lot kept your snout out of world affairs things would be more peaceful. Your intervention in Ukraine failed and you didn't get the prize (access to Sevastopol). And your attempted regime change in Syria also failed.

 I asked you once before why the US wouldn't come get Sevastopol in the 90's when they were stronger and Russia and Ukraine were weak but you could not give me a reasonable answer. Can you now? And take a look at this... it seems China was the one who had plans for Crimea, not the US

https://jamestown.org/program/sale-of-crimean-land-by-yanukovych-made-infor-china/


During his visit to China, Yanukovych also signed a territorial “agreement” allowing the Chinese to lease about 160,000 hectares of Crimean land, well known for its fertile black soil, for the next 50 years, thus turning Crimea into a food-production colony for China.

In the initial part of the project, the Chinese plan to invest $3 billion to build a new mega-port in Crimea, which will be similar to Lingang Industrial park in Shanghai. Some of this money will also go to the expansion and upgrading of the Sevastopol port, where the Russian Black Sea Fleet is located.


 Take a look at the date on the article, Feb 6th, 2014... just before the Russian intervention of Crimea. Now if you were Putin, would you be more concerned about US interests in Crimea? Or Chinese?   


 

[Contrarian]

In other words, they dont feel threatened because there is no threat. This Russian threat malarkey is all made up nonsense.

 Lol, and yet the US threat in Crimea is not! 

If you lot kept your snout out of world affairs things would be more peaceful. Your intervention in Ukraine failed and you didn't get the prize (access to Sevastopol). And your attempted regime change in Syria also failed.

 I asked you once before why the US wouldn't come get Sevastopol in the 90's when they were stronger and Russia and Ukraine were weak but you could not give me a reasonable answer. Can you now? And take a look at this... it seems China was the one who had plans for Sevestopol, not the US

https://www.ft.com/content/04619a7a-5da2-11e3-95bd-00144feabdc0


 Take a look at the date on the article, Dec 5th, 2013... just before the Russian intervention of Crimea. Now if you were Putin, would you be more concerned about US interests in Crimea? Or Chinese?   

 

Quiet bud. You’re messing up the carefully scripted narrative of what he’s been told to say. 

[d672]

 Just to clarify.... I edited the article link in my post to another one because the original one wouldn't let anyone see it without a subscription once I posted it for some reason. Confed's quote of me shows the old one, my post shows the second one.

[d672]

Quiet bud. You’re messing up the carefully scripted narrative of what he’s been told to say. 

 Or programmed to believe! 

[AvHdB]

Quiet bud. You’re messing up the carefully scripted narrative of what he’s been told to say. 

 Or programmed to believe! 

You both have point. The reality is your perspective and standpoint.

I guess the greater question would one prefer the freedoms and prosperity that the West lead by the United States to the misery and economic poverty and lack of basic freedoms that are a hallmark of Russia in one guise or in another?

Certainly there are warts and ugly parts of the West - but this to my sensibilities are preferable to the 'Soviet' vision.

[B.B.]

NATO countries may freely exit the Alliance at any time. What like a Brexit.. oh yeah...

With a lot less drama and no stick-up on the way out.  Remind me how well that's going, btw.

Meanwhile, the Easter Bloc (minus, of course, Russia) broke the land speed record for joining NATO the very second that they could because: Russian Nationalism. 

Strange that Finland that borders Russia together with nearby Sweden did not join NATO though, eh? 

The Finns Findlandized themselves, and I'm not sure that I'd use Sweden as an example, given that, during the great struggle for the future against Nazism, they couldn't be bothered, other than to play host to Goring and to be the armorer to the Reich.

In other words, they dont feel threatened because there is no threat. This Russian threat malarkey is all made up nonsense.

Russia no longer has the ability to project its power around the world as it once did.  The bear is merely sleeping, though.

I missed where the USA was occupying any part of a state formerly run by Moscow ...

I am not sure if this would qualify as "occupation", but the USA "colluded"    with the Afghan resistance forces against the Taliban.  The Taliban, having earlier, taken over Afghanistan after the departure of USSR forces earlier.  USSR helped to set up a pro-Soviet leader (Babrak Karmal) in Kabul.

But for bin Laden, America would not give a toss about Afghanistan.  We'd be perfectly content to let them get on with their blowing up Buddhas and goat- ing.  But no, they had to let OBL fly planes into office buildings.  Then it was on like Donkey Kong.

Quiet bud. You’re messing up the carefully scripted narrative of what he’s been told to say. 

 Or programmed to believe! 

He does seem dead set on being more Royalist than the King (or Tsar, if you prefer). 

B/B

[Contrarian]

In other words, they dont feel threatened because there is no threat. This Russian threat malarkey is all made up nonsense.

Really? Then why is Russia seizing more Georgian land?? 

https://americanmilitarynews.com/2018/08/russia-is-quietly-seizing-territory-in-georgia-as-it-warns-of-a-horrible-conflict-if-the-eurasian-country-joins-nato/

[Contrarian]

Ukraine is a state that was forcibly invaded by Russia

When was this forcible invasion? I'm surprised it never made the news.

Funny but Combat Medals are not given out for propaganda. 


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2016/09/06/russian-combat-medals-put-lie-to-putins-claim-of-no-russian-troops-in-ukraine/amp/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medal_%22For_the_Return_of_Crimea%22

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation