The emotions of moving from the fSU

[AvHdB]

There are a number of threads where a woman's feeling and disappointment in the West have been hinted at. It would be great if us males understood this better. This thread about being in Western Europe or North America might help men and even the women to understand the reality and the effects.

It would be great if other members shared there insights and opinions.

missAmeno, Overall,are you glad you came to UK ,or do you prefer life in Ukraine ?

Are the cultural differences huge ?

What are the best and worst things about life in the UK for you,in comparison to Ukraine ?

There is a second wave of culture shock that hits around the two year mark I have always thought. One where everything (like dentists) in the new country are rejected as not as good as "home".
 

I dont think I had a 1st wave or atleast not in that sense, at first on all differences I looked with amazement, there were no negative feelings or attitude, just desire to learn and understand life/culture/mentality of UK. The 2nd wave hit around two years mark but I never looked at it as culture shock, just tremendous nostalgie. Nostalgie not about life in Ukraine what could have been at that moment but about past, memories from childhood, little silly things that I would never thought I could miss, understanding that it never will be same and realisation that even if I go back to live in Ukraine I will be missing my life in UK same way as I am missing life in Ukraine. Second and third years have been the hardest for me, I think that was time in my life when I was the most stubborn, argumentative and less agreeable to compromise then ever in my life. I had excuse and blamed it all on post maternal depression as I my daughter was born around 1 1/2 year after I came to UK. Still then the word depression only could have been used by me and only in sarcastic meaning, everyone else been smart enough to understand that attempts to suggest perhaps I have depression for real or/and should see GP about it are same as kamikaze stunt that could end badly for them.   
With time I learned to deal with it and dont take out on those who around me, over years nostalgie eased. I cant say its gone away completely (time to time it still springs out just it happens more rarely), it changed its form. Somewhere from end of 3rd year it became just as memories of happy moments from life in Ukraine with no negativity towards changes, acceptance of what is life here and ability to understand and enjoy those changes.

Going trough that nutty period by myself the only thing I can suggest to those who sufferring while their wives going through it: patience and time. There is no immediate answers or actions that could give immediate improvements or results. Make sure you both understand that its period/stage all going though and both of you learn how to handle it without taking out on each other.

If there is an older thread some where perhaps the mods can polish this bit a away and post the above into the pre-existing thread.

[BC]

I grew up with a suitcase...  When I was 6 months old, we landed in France.. my first language was French and my sister was born there.  Then came Italy, Panama, Puerto Rico, Turkey, Germany, Spain, USA and then started the circle again...  50+ years later I am still 'over there'...  New languages, new cultures... that was the feedstock of our lives.

What astounds me though is that my relatives in the US rarely, if ever visit us here.  Only a precious few have done so.  Most are doing well economically which only makes it more confusing  considering folks from FSU or elsewhere with far less means have visited more often.

RU and FSU was for many years politically isolated... the US OTOH geographically isolated.. somewhat par for the course...

But....

Out of 100 WM / FSU couples I would be willing to bet that for every 100 FSUW that move to the west, only one WM is willing to move to FSU to be with his 'loveliness'... maybe less, despite the factor of 'love'....

When I met my wife I knew absolutely nothing about this whole MOB business..  Before appearing on FSUW fora I was most worried as to what I would do if my future wife could not immigrate here.  That choice was fairly easy for me... I was ready and willing to move there if necessary.  After all, my business is internet based so as long as internet was available that was not a great obstacle.  The distances involved were relatively short.

To me those who think that 'she must come to me or it ain't gonna be' are simply fooling themselves.. or at the least haven't a clue as to what their 'flame' is sacrificing to be in a relationship with someone in a foreign country.

I fully support the 1% that would be willing to move to FSU for 'love'... but think that men who believe the sacrifice that a FSUW makes when moving 'elsewhere' is insignificant are for the most part blowing cotton candy up their @ss.  It sounds more like 'my way or highway'..

To the other 99% I say without much reservation:

You don't hav a clue as to what she is going through...

[missAmeno]

I copied my reply and added in red.

missAmeno,

                 Overall,are you glad you came to UK ,or do you prefer  life  in Ukraine ?

Love UK now, but it didnt happen instantly, took time to understand and appreciate quirkiness of Britain. I dont think I survive living in Ukraine now, to many things became unacceptable after years living in western country including but not limited to endless bureaucracy and bribing.

Are the cultural differences huge ?

Yes and no. Even take british BBQs and its not so different from so common shashlik grilling in Ukraine but hey ho you cant helped with having cultural shock when someone offers you for the first time black burned burger with a splash almost like half of bottle of ketchup on it in underbaked cheap burger roll and you politely chew it in front of several people who expects your verdict on great british BBQ. Having several such negative experiences sets attitude in you and doesnt help at all to settle down and accept differences. You have to have someone who able to show to you the best or variety from which you could choose what you like. That applys not only to food but to everything. Back home you know what you like, you know your choices and when you come to new country you have no idea on choices available to you, you dont know what is best and what you would like, often the only thing you know that what you liked home not available anymore. So unless someone able to guide you on those choices it will take you much longer to find out everything by yourself and its just effects how long it will take you to settle down and adapt to changes.

What are the best and worst things about life in the UK for you,in comparison to Ukraine ?

I don't mean your personal circumstances,just about life in general.

What are worst things? That question perhaps should have been asked 10 years ago, it probably would have been endless list at that time. Now it all accepted or resolved with compomisses so doesnt feel important anymore.  Two things that I remember me bothering significantly then were food and medical system/approach.

Food: After amazement of choice in supermarkets (please remember I left Ukraine end of 1999) settles down and you realize that there is almost nothing tastes as food you grown up with, nostalgie kicks in for grandmum's пирожки, proper strawberries taste and smell, herring, зефир ... I can go on for hours. You start to experiment with ingridients available in supermarkets to recreate what you miss but soon realize that even best quality flour available in British shops unable to do same wonders what ukrainian flour does and rollmops not exactly taste same as herring should in шуба (russian dish that includes herring layered with cooked vegetables under mayonaise).
Solution: choice. You have possibility of trying new food that perhaps you never would have tried in Ukraine. You explore and find new things, you learn to use those new ingridents and soon enough you find things you love and enjoy.


Medical system/approach: Shock came when for the 1st time I had to use A & E. My 2 months old daughter had fever over 40 degrees for hours and nothing would drop it, waiting for over 8 hours in queue in A & E waiting room for doctor to see her (it was London 2001, things changed to better side since then) and then some nurse telling me to remove clothes from my baby as it may help to bring down her temperature. Looking at your 2 months old baby not just shivering but almost convulsing from cold while she is burning hot and trying to accept that everything I knew, my mother and grandmother knew and all doctors in my home country told all my life could be wrong wasnt cup of cake. Back home they say if someone has fever to keep them warm, cover with warm duvet and let sweat it out, exposure to cold could lead to pneumonia. Here they say covering with duvet and making sweat it out could lead to pneumonia, you should remove clothes and if that doesnt help use cold bath. So when removing clothes from my baby didnt help and nurse suggested to give her a cold bath she at least managed fast enough to hide behind my husband. Staying for 5 days in hospital and sleeping on the floor near cot my baby was sleeping in (as they dont have facilities for parent to stay with a child in hospital and option of leaving my baby on her own in hospital wasnt even up for disscusion for me) and after 5 days of not being able to reduce her high fever coming up with verdict: viral (on question what kind of virus exactly, answer: we not sure, could be anything) didnt go to well with me and didnt help to trust medical system.  I still dont trust as over years had several negative experiences with them including when my and my son's lives been put in danger by careless nurse and it was just miracle that all ended well. Nevertheless there many positives sides and its just takes time to understand and see them.


What are best things? Choice and opportunities, you are in control of your own life and you could make out of it anything you want if you have desire. But understading of those opportunities comes with time as well.

[AvHdB]

Miss A ~ thanks 

For many it would be helpful if others shared there impressions thoughts and feelings of this move.

AvHdB

[Manny]

My wife asked me to consider living in Russia when we first met.

I considered it.

We even went as far as to look at some new houses and imagine how life might be.

Whilst Russia had some pluses, the lacking infrastructure bothered me, as did the grim healthcare. I wasn't happy I could earn enough there - even from the (slow) internet. I also have a young son in the UK - which was the main factor preventing relocation. Language or culture [change of] didn't bother me - I could learn.

I could live anywhere relatively civilised really. I like Estonia, I like the US, I like Russia. I could live in any with enough money. In Russia, it takes a lot more money to create a western lifestyle and have basic creature comforts than it does elsewhere.

And that's the crux. A western lifestyle is expensive in Russia. For sure, if you want to sample the struggle of the poor, and live on a few hundred dollars a month in some grey monolithic tower block - you can. Just. But that isn't living; that is survival.

But, if you don't want to take a step down, and you want AC, a power shower, want a decent car, want to eat steak occasionally and generally have stuff, you are already well beyond the average Joe. Then stuff costs. In fact, it costs more than it would in the US or the UK. Then the "budget" idea of Russia isn't looking so inviting.

[NS1]

BC, I agree But. My work is not transferable and I don't have enough money to quit. I would not make enough money there to live. SO it is not always the highway or my way, its economics. That said, I once said to a girl if you come and do not like it. in 5 years we can move and live there.

MissA, I went through some of that and I remember trying can soups, through out 6 cans in 30 minutes, before we both realized and started laughing, she will have to make home made soup. This example can apply to several things, some good some no. but the person on the other end, has to realize, if you never had, maybe you like, maybe no.
It is part of the process, my food bill for the first few weeks was nuts experimenting. But to me this is a normal process that will happen to all who do this, take it in stride:)

[Rasputin]

Sure, in the first year or two my wife would not have objected to us living in Russia. Now, she would be the one to say no. She can't stand the cramped apartments, the poor service and general bitterness/anger encountered in the streets... She now likes our standard of living and the little things such as nice parks that are clean with outdoor toilets that will have toilet paper, decent roads where she can drive, and so forth... 

[Bill]

I lived in Moscow for 2 years and prior to that visited Russia several times, I don't speak Russian well but when required can swear as well as the next expat. I have a pension and some investment income, my wife and I could get by easily enough even in Moscow. Do I want to raise a child in Moscow? No. Would I live anywhere in the FSU permanently? No of course not are you kidding me?

The reasons are many and obvious to anyone who has spent more than a few months in Russia. The previous posters listed the most obvious, mine are more general. I met a few hundred expats while in Russia, few have gone native, learned the language, culture and plan on spending the rest of their life in Russia. That should be a good indication of the quality of life for a westerner in Russia.

All of FSU is corrupt as hell. This isn't just my MHO it's a simple fact. Another issue researchers agree on is that it will probably get worse politically and economically before it gets better. Don't want to be living in Moscow if Russia implodes.     

I grew up in L.A., Moscow is cold in winter, very cold, I want to spend my golden years in a warmer climate. Even my wife has said she'd rather not spend winter in Russia. Of course I want the best for my wife and any children we have that simply can't be done in Russia. Another sign Russia isn't suitable is the rich in Russia have multiple homes in the west and send their kids to high quality schools and universities in the west. 

[Ade]

There are a number of threads where a woman's feeling and disappointment in the West have been hinted at. It would be great if us males understood this better. This thread about being in Western Europe or North America might help men and even the women to understand the reality and the effects.

It would be great if other members shared there insights and opinions.

It seems to me, from what I've seen and experienced first hand, that it's a process that a lot of immigrants have to go through. I think it can be alleviated at least a little, perhaps quite a lot, with the help of their partner being supportive and patient, enabling them, and making them feel more secure and independent; there are various ways of doing these things as discussed in many other threads.

This is not just an FSUW coming to the "oh so different" West thing; I think my Norwegian ex-wife went through a mild culture shock when she moved to Switzerland. I was young and clueless back then which didn't help in the slightest and probably made things much worse.

It's not definite that it will happen or happen with such severity that it'll be a hellish time though. My wife, as far as I can tell, never experienced any real culture shock symptoms. Perhaps it helped that she'd experienced western Europe previously, perhaps it was because she spent some months living here with me prior to permanent immigration so she was eased into her new life, perhaps it's just the type of person she is. Perhaps we were just lucky.

So what have I seen from others. Well, definitely the extreme nostalgia thing, food and culture are biggies. Home sickness is quite a big one too, so much so that several of our acquaintances needed to go back quite a few times in their first year. One woman went back 4 times I think (or perhaps it was every 2 months - it was a silly number of times anyway).

The most common that I've seen, and perhaps the most irritating, is the criticism thing and unrealistic comparisons. Of the food, the lack of "culture", and oh so much on doctors and the medical establishment. Most is irrational, some is FSU ignorance and refusal to accept that old way is not the best or even safe.

I think, as long as their husbands are supportive and patient, these symptoms will disappear or become unimportant background niggles within a year. For some men I think these issues become points of contention ("how dare she criticise my country like that!") and instead of being dealt with reasonably so they become non-issues, they escalate into relationship poisoning ones.

[Dudefella]

I agree with the posts here, you're all pretty much saying the same thing, but here's my Australian take on it.

I think the 'you should be prepared to have her ask you to relocate' is a bit of a loaded gun. This is the MOB business, generally you're looking at a girl with youth/looks and a taste for a foreign adventure and a guy who has money/stability and a decent personality. Obviously it's a trade, and of course it's not all cradle-snatchers and gold-diggers, but it's still a trade.

For the WM to move over to the FSU, you're throwing away everyone's bargaining chips. 999 out of 1000 jobs can't be done permanently from a remote location, so the guy loses his financial stability, and in most cases, would have to start on the ground floor, which is pretty grounded in the FSU. The FSUW then has to remember her new man is going to be in the FSU, speaking in his western tongue, and a target for her peers; other youthful adventure-seekers.

And yes, in agreement with everyone else, a step up in quality of life (obviously region dependent) is part of what the WM is bringing to the table, why is she specifically chasing a WM when there's a fat Yuri who can fulfil her needs at home? It's really a question of 'what does SHE want?'

And of course you're going to be homesick, I don't know if I could live abroad permanently, it's the family and friends you leave behind, it's the whole life, cracks and all. It would be too much to bear at times I'd imagine, but it's a reality you have to face when you make the decision to look for a guy from another country.

[andrewfi]

Dudefella, you are right.
In a way this discussion is predicated upon the false notion that these women are somehow wanting to move country for 'love'. That they can get anywhere, no need to move country or continent.

We have seen a few cases where blokes did indicate they would move to Russia or Ukraine and some who did so. I do not recall a single case where it ended well - even in the one case where, possibly, 'love' might have been involved from both parties.

There are some women who do have a decent life and prospects (fewer than most men who tell you that their 'best beloved' had them) and who are wiling to marry and leave with a foreign bloke but they will be rare. It'll be harder for most men, older, less healthy and less flexible than their wives to make the adjustment.

After all, to be totally realistic about it even if all else - opportunity, income, climate - were equal which is going to be easier:
1) Move from an objectively lower standard of living to higher
or
2) Move from an objectively higher standard of living to lower

The answer to that one is not hard to figure out.

To be honest, of the few blokes who have entertained the notion that he should move to the FSU, how many REALLY started that train of thought in response to their little darling's prompting as compared to the larger number who initiated it themselves as a part of a middle aged escape fantasy, later choosing to ascribe the madness to their better half.