Miracles do happen.

[NS1]

Yup Miracles do happen.

Shit happens too!

[Millaa]

Sharon, and what  is ur mother thinking about having 18 years old daughter in law? 

[Mark Davis]

Hey, guys!

Thanks for the chance to enter into this conversation. 

My story is an exception.  I was not looking for a big age difference.  Anna didn't want to tell me her age for the first two months we were dating because she thought it would scare me off.  She would have been right.  I thought she was around 26 based on her maturity and humor.  She thought I was around 35 based on my personal energy.  By the time I found out what her age was, and recovered from the shock, I realized that I was already in love with her.  This was my half. 

When people see us together it's obvious we're very comfortable together.  People can tell that the age difference is not an issue with us, but it can be for many.

I've talked about this a lot because we seem to be the target for much of the conversation on the topic.  Even that TV show we were on tried to make it look like I was hunting for teens.  Sheesh.  I end up spending a lot of time helping guys focus on what will help them find and romance a good FSU woman.

In reference to the other comment made about Anna, in Anna's defense, when she talked about "old guys" at the AFA event, she was talking about guys who look old and act old.  I've never been accused of such things. 

I did meet my wife at an AFA social, but I had already dated in many other foreign countries by that point and I was able to try to make it work.  Today I have my own opinions about ways I feel would be much more natural for people to meet and interact in order to initiate first contact.  I strongly disagree with big box socials, no assigned translators, and no screening of the women.  I could say more, but I'll refrain.

Here's my opinion on the age difference: you shouldn't be looking for a number - your looking for a heart that beats like yours and brings you to life.  It's all about chemistry and connection.  Age becomes an issue in letter-writing because it's the first statistic everyone looks for.  I don't believe in first introductions being remote.  I believe in fact-to-face introductions - because you can't download a wife.  Every guy I know who is married today met his wife in person for the first time - not online.  The magic happens when you show up.  How can you really judge whether a person is a fit without being right there with her? 

OK, back to age gaps . . . Statistically speaking, there was a survey done with 1,800 people who had been married to a Russian or Ukrainian.  The average age difference was 9.8 years (I can provide the link if you'd like).

Culturally speaking, My wife has said that Ukrainian women often look 10 to 15 years older, even among Ukrainian men, because the guys there don't really like to settle down There's a great YouTube video interview with a Ukrainian guy talking about his opinions on all of this and confirming it).  Anna feels that men in their 20's are still sewing their wild oats.  A marriage minded man would probably be 30 and above.  That was her opinion of Ukrainian men and it carried forward when she dated Western men.

I really wish guys wouldn't make such a huge deal of this - and the ones who do seem to be the single guys.  This isn't about fantasy marketing.  It's about learning how to go and meet them in person, be comfortable so you can be in a good state of mind and enjoy your experience.  Give off a positive energy that attracts them. 

The top things I hear from the ladies is that they want a man who has a good sense of humor, or is fun to be around.  Why?  Because the Russian and Ukrainian men are so serious in a relationship.  You just have to be fascinated with them and their life and be fun to be around.  I'm not saying to be a comedian; but it's not hard to compete with a serious Russian or Ukrainian guy.

Shakespear - thank you for inviting me back to this forum.  I hadn't been here in a long while.  I posted an introduction message and was warmly greeted.  This seems like a great group. 

[2tallbill]

Hey, guys!

Welcome back to the forum Mark

[AvHdB]

I was not looking for a big age difference. 

Here's my opinion on the age difference: you shouldn't be looking for a number - your looking for a heart that beats like yours and brings you to life.  It's all about chemistry and connection.  Age becomes an issue in letter-writing because it's the first statistic everyone looks for.  I don't believe in first introductions being remote.  I believe in fact-to-face introductions - because you can't download a wife.  Every guy I know who is married today met his wife in person for the first time - not online.  The magic happens when you show up.  How can you really judge whether a person is a fit without being right there with her? 

The top things I hear from the ladies is that they want a man who has a good sense of humor, or is fun to be around.  Why?  Because the Russian and Ukrainian men are so serious in a relationship.  You just have to be fascinated with them and their life and be fun to be around.  I'm not saying to be a comedian; but it's not hard to compete with a serious Russian or Ukrainian guy.

Mark (&Anna) Thank you for posting your opinions and expeirence. We hope you will put in your two cents from time to time. AvHdB

[Mark Davis]

Thanks, guys.  It's nice to be back!

[Vinnvinny]

I really wish guys wouldn't make such a huge deal of this - and the ones who do seem to be the single guys. 

Mark: In my experience the guys who make a big issue of this are usually the ones who are/would struggle to attract a lady 2 years younger, let alone 20.

Btw, welcome. 

[rosco]

Well written Mark & a nice read.

One thing that always plays on my mind is this theory that FSU guys don't settle early & tend to 'sew their oats' until maturing some time in their 30's. Well...we all know there's hardly heaps more women then men out there, and what strikes me is - Who are they doing all the sewing with?

I smell a rat. 

[missAmeno]

Well written Mark & a nice read.

One thing that always plays on my mind is this theory that FSU guys don't settle early & tend to 'sew their oats' until maturing some time in their 30's. Well...we all know there's hardly heaps more women then men out there, and what strikes me is - Who are they doing all the sewing with?

I smell a rat. 

No Rosco, Anna is right. Lots of girls view the the difference of 10-15 is normal (doesnt mean they date only within that age difference but if they meet someone they like within that age difference age will not be concern for many). You forgetting we have obligatory army for boys at 18. Those that are at 18 studying for Higher education will be allowed to finish study and will be called in straight away after they complete education. So if guy finished university at 22 by the time he comes out from army he will be 24/25, add few years of having fun and partying and he is closer to end of 20s/early 30s before the idea about settling down crosses his mind. Other thing that having serious relationship with a guy who still have army he will have to attend in future means girl will have to wait for him for 2/3 years and that puts many off

[rosco]

Well written Mark & a nice read.

One thing that always plays on my mind is this theory that FSU guys don't settle early & tend to 'sew their oats' until maturing some time in their 30's. Well...we all know there's hardly heaps more women then men out there, and what strikes me is - Who are they doing all the sewing with?

I smell a rat. 

No Rosco, Anna is right. Lots of girls view the the difference of 10-15 is normal (doesnt mean they date only within that age difference but if they meet someone they like within that age difference age will not be concern for many). You forgetting we have obligatory army for boys at 18. Those that are at 18 studying for Higher education will be allowed to finish study and will be called in straight away after they complete education. So if guy finished university at 22 by the time he comes out from army he will be 24/25, add few years of having fun and partying and he is closer to end of 20s/early 30s before the idea about settling down crosses his mind. Other thing that having serious relationship with a guy who still have army he will have to attend in future means girl will have to wait for him for 2/3 years and that puts many off

I don't disagree and except from the army bit, it's not all that different to the UK. My question was;

Guys apparently take longer to settle down in the FSU and like to hop around, but if the action is so rife, there must be many girls to hop around with? Not judging anyone but its not exactly a culture of angels that's often portrayed. 

[missAmeno]

I don't disagree and except from the army bit, it's not all that different to the UK. My question was;

Guys apparently take longer to settle down in the FSU and like to hop around, but if the action is so rife, there must be many girls to hop around with? Not judging anyone but its not exactly a culture of angels that's often portrayed. 

In UK joining army is a choice, in Ukraine its obligation. Except those that on medical grounds not suitable for army (and as well those parents of who decided to pay bribe) will be hopping in army for 2/3 years instead of hopping with girls. I will not speculate what % of guys go through army as I simply dont know such statistics but I will safely says majority are going through it. I have no knowledge how often guys in UK can leave the base and visit home but most of guys in Ukraine in army may have only few short visits (such as weekend and those would be in some exceptional situations such as close family member passed away) within their time of service and some dont have possibility to leave base at all. They only can dream about hopping with girls. So of course after they return home most of guys for some time just hop instead of considering serious relationship. Thats creates shortage of men for serious relationship within same or close age difference.

Of course girls hopping too as well as many teenage girls hop. Keep in mind that law is not enforced in Ukraine regarding such matters in same way as on West.

[NS1]

Yes very true, I witnessed 23 year old man, in relationship with 16 year old girl.
They have been together 2 years, family friends all thought no problem.

[Mark Davis]

AGE GAP COMMENTARY FROM A GUY WITH A 25-YEAR AGE DIFFERENCE WITH HIS UKRAINIAN WIFE OF FIVE YEARS
by Mark Davis


POINT ONE: I did not go looking for a big age gap. When we met I thought she was about 26 based on her maturity and humor.  That would have made it a 16 year gap and I felt fine about that. 


POINT TWO: Anna DID go looking for an age gap. She was convinced that guys in their 20's were all cheaters because they were all sewing their wild oats.  She concluded that a marriage-minded guy would have to be over 30 - and she was dating guys in that age range in Ukraine when she was 18.  It was a strategy on her part.


POINT THREE: We were an obvious fit to anyone who saw us together. Those who have spent any time with us will say that we are such an amazing and comfortable fit and they concur that the age factor is not relevant to our chemistry with each other.  But you'd have to meet us in person to buy that.  If you're ever in SoCal please look us up and we can do lunch!


POINT FOUR: Anna sees the age gap as an advantage for her as a woman.  Anna feels that women age much faster than men.  A 50 year old guy can still be very handsome - but a 50 year old woman rarely is.  She has said on many occasions that she's glad that she'll always be the most beautiful woman in my life.

POINT FIVE: We have amazing passion and attraction for each other. 


POINT SIX: Life is always fascinating and never boring with different perspectives. In addition to observing the same things in life from two cultural perspectives - and from the difference of being different sexes - we also see them from different generations.  We NEVER lack in things to talk about just from our two observations of daily life.  I guess I get bored easily and I really love conversing with people who see things entirely differently.  Other people can be threatened by it and see it as potential conflict.  I feel sorry for them.


POINT SEVEN: We add value to each other's life. She keeps me connected with youthful activities and people with brilliant and young minds.  I am able to provide her with opportunities in life she wouldn't have had in Ukraine - and people in my circle she never would have met.  And I ALWAYS have the hottest woman in the room on my arm.


POINT EIGHT: It's not as big a gap as you'd think. When I'm finally getting close to the end of my life (mid-80's in my family history), we will have been married for nearly 40 years.  She will be approaching 60 and have had a wonderful life with me.


In spite of all of those benefits for us - we have dealt with judgement and harsh accusation.  I have been accused of being on the hunt for teens.  I have been told I was cruel to marry her knowing that I would die first.  Had anyone read the life expectancy tables for Ukrainians?  Men are expected to die at 63 and women at 75. 

Everyone's story is different.  But I always advise to look for the one you have a spark with - meet in person first and not online - she won't have an age on her name badge.  You'll just have to listen to your heart for a change.

[missAmeno]

My above posts may seems to some readers and/or members as encouragement of relationships with big difference in age. So I probably should add that even if many girls in 20s dont see huge deal to date guys in 30s it doesnt mean that same girls will be in same way attracted to guys in 40s or 50s. Such relationships are rare. Mark and Anna situation is unusual and glad to hear they are both happy and made relationship with such age difference to work. 

[Mark Davis]

I think we should have a full Webinar discussion on the topic.

[TomT]

I think that it's unproductive to defend one's choices. Detractors take it for rationalization and like-minded folk already understand.

[Manny]

I think we should have a full Webinar discussion on the topic.

We already have 189 pages and rising. 

[2tallbill]

Remember the OP used the Mark Davis (MD) relationship as a justification as
to what age girl he would pursue. Where MD said specifically that he did NOT
seek a girl so young nor did she seek one so old, but that things fell into
place.

The OP has repeatedly sought girls who are young and has found mostly scams,
pay for letter sites where he receives letters from translators and Fat Yuri. The OP
has several threads outlining how he was cheated, scammed or attempted to be
scammed and refuses to believe that his methods are not sound or that most
normal 20 year old girls would not be interested in him.

MD in my opinion is the rare exception and there are literally millions of FSUW who
are older, wiser and every bit as pretty.

I have a son who is 21, and I have met many of the girls in the pack of friends he has.
While some of the girls are quite bright or funny, I could not imagine having an extended
conversation with ANY of them.

[2tallbill]

I think that it's unproductive to defend one's choices. Detractors take it for rationalization and like-minded folk already understand.

Tom, I agree

I do think that we have the ability to inform a newbie, or a lurker, or a reasonable guy not
to be caught up in all of the agency hype.

The OP has made up his mind,

Schastlivo!

[Mark Davis]

Remember the OP used the Mark Davis (MD) relationship as a justification as
to what age girl he would pursue. Where MD said specifically that he did NOT
seek a girl so young nor did she seek one so old, but that things fell into
place.

2tallbill, thank you for speaking the obvious and clarifying my stance.

If someone wants to use me, or any other human being, as an excuse for poor judgement they failed a basic IQ test and get what they deserve.

No one should be 'seeking' an age, but a person they connect with - and I personally believe that search should happen when you're face to face and nobody displays their age on their forehead.  You have to actually interact with them and see who you spark with. 

Is this really such a foreign concept?  If you felt you liked someone on Match.com you would think you were dating until you met in person.  With International dating the long distance correspondence just mucks things up and creates bad communication and fantasy based expectations.  But it's with the letter-writing that guys get hung up on the Number one thing they look for in a profile: AGE.  Get over it.  Get on a plane.  and meet lots of them face to face

[NS1]

Remember the OP used the Mark Davis (MD) relationship as a justification as
to what age girl he would pursue. Where MD said specifically that he did NOT
seek a girl so young nor did she seek one so old, but that things fell into
place.

2tallbill, thank you for speaking the obvious and clarifying my stance.

If someone wants to use me, or any other human being, as an excuse for poor judgement they failed a basic IQ test and get what they deserve.

No one should be 'seeking' an age, but a person they connect with - and I personally believe that search should happen when you're face to face and nobody displays their age on their forehead.  You have to actually interact with them and see who you spark with. 

Is this really such a foreign concept?  If you felt you liked someone on Match.com you would think you were dating until you met in person.  With International dating the long distance correspondence just mucks things up and creates bad communication and fantasy based expectations.  But it's with the letter-writing that guys get hung up on the Number one thing they look for in a profile: AGE.  Get over it.  Get on a plane.  and meet lots of them face to face

Mark, so I understand this. You believe men should not look online, but travel and meet ladies?
Find a fit face to face and then communicate on a deeper level once returning home.
With obvious steps to follow.

[Mark Davis]

Mark, so I understand this. You believe men should not look online, but travel and meet ladies?
Find a fit face to face and then communicate on a deeper level once returning home.
With obvious steps to follow.

Hey, nova scotia one:

You've asked a VERY BIG question and I can't just give a shortcut answer.  Sorry for this being such a long reply.

Yes, that is what I'm saying, but I also need to clarify it further because I would not recommend a guy just show up and hit the streets and bars looking for dates.

Let me make two observations and see if this makes sense to you:

First, I only know of two instances where a guy wrote to someone online, went to meet her, and it worked into a great marriage.  BUT, I do know a lot of happily married couples - but all of the rest of them (around 25 couples in all) met their wives while in Ukraine, face to face for their first contact.  That may just be my experience, but it has guided my strategies.

Second, in most every other area of my life, I do business with people who came to me recommend by someone I trust.  If I need an auto mechanic and my buddy says, 'hey, this guy was the best I've ever use' then my experience has been that I am more successful than just looking through ads for auto mechanics.  So my strategy with meeting women overseas has been that guys should be talking with people who actually know the ladies over there personally and can recommend some for them. 

Putting the two of these ideas together you will be dating amazing women that someone you trust has recommended you meet - and your chances of having great dates with sincere marriage-minded ladies sky rockets. 

Let me add one more comment to this. If you were to use this strategy, and the guy you trusted showed you these amazing profiles of the ladies he's lined up for you and you are blown away by their beauty and you can't wait to meet them!  But, your natural tendency is to want to write to her before you go.  Why?  Because that's how the current system works and because you want to do your own screening for yourself and "not waste your time" if you can find ways that you are not a fit.

For you to see what might be wrong with that strategy, let me propose what I see as the optimal sequence for getting to know a potential life partner:

One: You just want to see if you have basic attraction.  For example, you either like the profile your friend sent or you met her in person and something sparked your attention.  Since you are only being exposed to ladies that someone you trust has helped sort out as sincere in their motives, you are now only checking your heart to see who you are attracted to or feel a spark with. 

Two: The next step is to arrange the date and spend that first hour just being fun and seeing if she lights your world on fire.  Talk about movies you love, her town, job, life in your town, but keep it light.  You just want to see if there is a moment when you'd say, "Wow, there is something amazing about how this interaction is going!"  That's the chemistry test - and you'll only get a true sense of that after at least an hour or two of just interacting. 

Three: You need to find out if she feels the same energy between you - so ask, "I'm really enjoying spending time with you.  I came here to find someone special for my life and I'd like to spend more time getting to know you.  But I just want to make sure you are enjoying this time as much as I am and that you'd like to spend more time with me as well."  Wait for your answer.  Ukrainian women, especially ones that have been screened, will tell you honestly.  If yes, then you move on to step four:

Four: Begin getting into the deeper aspects of the hopes and dreams of your life and hers and then - and only then - do you start to bring up the issues of kids/no kids - or whatever you pet 'deal breaker' is.

Five: Pursue the one that you connect with, who feels the same way, and has no 'deal breaker' issues - and close the boyfriend/girlfriend deal before you leave town to be continued through Skype until you can come back again to spend more time with just her.

Having said all of that, what I tell my guys is that once you have a date lined up with a lady (set up by a trusted friend), then you already know that you will be looking into her eyes in person very soon.  Once you are there in person you can begin the 5-step sequence as I described above.  You already have a date with her set.  You will be able to judge your chemistry for yourself soon enough.  But you will ruin first impressions by trying to force remote communications ahead of your face to face meeting.  Why?  Because the communication is only with a few of the senses, it is subject to misunderstanding, and then your first date is now spent clarifying what you meant or she meant in your letters instead of being present to experience if your chemistry is right.

That's my opinion on the whole thing. Those are my best suggestions.  Anything can work for the right types of circumstances and people (hey, I did meet my wife at a big box social).  It is just my experience that this process gives you the best odds for success.

Mark

[rosco]

Mark,

It's a very logical and well thought out process and I'm guessing for some, this might be this best way? Forgive me for being cynical but it's a bit of a stereotypical, American over analysed & premeditated way to date. Perhaps this method suits the blokes who are a little green or want the security of 3rd party organisation, but it's not for me.

I say be smart and contact girls with realistic profiles, increase exchanges with those who show genuine interest, put the hours in on Skype and then with gut instinct and honesty, make a decision on whether she's worth the travel. Once your sure get your ass on a plane. With anyone other than you and your girl, there's always an ulterior motive for the 3rd party to varying degrees.

Sure meeting women on the net or traveling abroad brings a few more problems, but don't over complicate dating. I've never liked dating through friends and really wouldn't get involved in an organised dating session. In my opinion you meet women yourself and you WILL know if a) she likes you & b) your matched.

For those with a bit of get up and go about them, you don't need led by the hand. 

[NS1]

I tend to agree with Rosco.

But Mark I see your points and with the right people would be valid way to proceed.
for the record I am not looking, was curious.

But your way eliminates 75% of people looking, especially north Americans!
Most men have above average incomes, that do this, that said. Most do not have unlimited funds
and more important unlimited vacation time. So take a guy who makes 75k a year and has 4 weeks vacation.
Likely higher than average. So he gets his contact, but has limited info. He heads off and realizes she want 3 kids
he's not sure if he wants any more! This is only one example, but it makes my point that at least some level of communications is good. I think you need the basics before the average guy can give up 10 days vacation
and 3000 to 4000 k of earning on a maybe.

Your plan would work of high income earners with plenty of free time, but lets be realistic, that not most people.
Maybe you only cater to the well off?

[Muzh_1]

I think that it's unproductive to defend one's choices. Detractors take it for rationalization and like-minded folk already understand.

You are correct. 

I have my own opinion on the subject, BUT that is MY opinion.

The way I see it is IF they are happy, who am I to judge. 

I'd like to offer caution, tho.