Alpha versus Beta males & who is more successful in the FSU?

[Rasputin]

Perhaps this thread should have been entitled, "The Beta mutual admiration society."

As opposed to the usual wannabe alpha self-stroking flattery club 

[TomT]

Say what you will about Alphas (wannabe or otherwise) but they never begrudge Betas the use of their hard-ridden leftovers.

Nuttin' poisonal, of course...

[cufflinks]

Now, the handsome guys were always in groups talking amongst themselves, probably asking each other if they had their respect, and acting cool while smoking their cigarettes.

LOL, so true, so true.

Now for Alpha's and Beta's, I believe it is one of the universal rules for women to be attracted to Alpha's but not happy with them in the long run. Personally, I go for being quiet and strong since I am not an Alpha but even that is just a show. I think women want the Alpha to start but want to turn them into Beta's in the end so eventually when I turn into the real Beta me they are happy from start to finish .

Ckott

As far as "Alphas" hanging out in groups there is an old saying "Wolves pack Turkeys Flock and Eagles hunt alone!"   

[cufflinks]

Say what you will about Alphas (wannabe or otherwise) but they never begrudge Betas the use of their hard-ridden leftovers.

Nuttin' poisonal, of course...

I have Two Alpha friends in the looks dept in Boston 6Ft+ 40+ Model Good Looks one an MBA and one a CPA (He models for fun at Saks 5th Fashion events as a younger Grey Fox) - they just love the Boston tech nerdy types who as they would say "set the table for them" - were known to sweep up ladies at high end watering holes after someone else picked up the tab - a true Alpha almost never pays for dinner or champange or such - cuts into their Golfing budget - of course the mega alpha among us or Alpha Prime inherited an industrial park fortune he manages for himself and his sister and he routinely nets $5M+/- per year on stock trading - his only real "job" as his lawyer and accountant handle the property triple net lease minutiae.

So you can have male model good looks and athleticism to be a genetic alpha but all that is trumped when you can take out your checkbook - and hand dunk a basketball while standing on said checkbook - wealth is always an equalizer.

[rosco]

It's a popular view that FSU girls prefer the alpha male, but I'm undecided. I'm also undecided if we can all be classified as alpha or beta? Is an uneducated, rude, grunt of a man really alpha? Is he the top of the food chain?

In my opinion, it's true most women are attracted to the traits which make a man a real man. Strong, decisive, honourable & respected by his peers....but this is only part of the story. How can we really second guess every woman's wishes & desires? They seldom know themselves! 

[Rasputin]

Say what you will about Alphas (wannabe or otherwise) but they never begrudge Betas the use of their hard-ridden leftovers.

Nuttin' poisonal, of course...

 

Tom, you are quite the comedian... Of course I won't point out the irony of wannabe alphas having to go to the FSU and invariably marrying the, how did you put it, "hard-ridden leftovers" of the local FSU men 

[cufflinks]

Say what you will about Alphas (wannabe or otherwise) but they never begrudge Betas the use of their hard-ridden leftovers.

Nuttin' poisonal, of course...

 

Tom, you are quite the comedian... Of course I won't point out the irony of wannabe alphas having to go to the FSU and invariably marrying the, how did you put it, "hard-ridden leftovers" of the local FSU men 

Curious implies the UAW are just rode hard and put away wet nags rather then fresh young phillies ready to run free

[andrewpttsbrgh]

Oh geez...I really don't like getting into discussions such as this.  But I have to voice my opionion.  I have to give the Drew definition of 'Alpha Male'  In my head Alpha male is not a player or a badboy.  In my head the phrase 'Alpha Male' breaks down to one simple word...And that is LEADER.

Drew

[Rasputin]

Oh geez...I really don't like getting into discussions such as this.  But I have to voice my opionion.  I have to give the Drew definition of 'Alpha Male'  In my head Alpha male is not a player or a badboy.  In my head the phrase 'Alpha Male' breaks down to one simple word...And that is LEADER.

Drew

The terms were coined to refer to personality types. However, not all Alphas are leaders and not all Betas are followers.

[TomT]

Tom, you are quite the comedian... Of course I won't point out the irony of wannabe alphas having to go to the FSU and invariably marrying the, how did you put it, "hard-ridden leftovers" of the local FSU men

If I didn't know better, I'd swear that there are signs of insecurity about position in line the food chain between those lines (pun intended). Since I know better, I won't go there.

p.s.

I hope that you don't mind that I mimicked your style of sayin' what you weren't going to write, writing it anyway and cloaking a personal attack in theoretical clothing.

[Rasputin]

Tom, you are quite the comedian... Of course I won't point out the irony of wannabe alphas having to go to the FSU and invariably marrying the, how did you put it, "hard-ridden leftovers" of the local FSU men

If I didn't know better, I'd swear that there are signs of insecurity about position in line the food chain between those lines (pun intended). Since I know better, I won't go there.

p.s.

I hope that you don't mind that I mimicked your style of sayin' what you weren't going to write and, then, writing it anyway.

Signs of insecurity? Are you reading your posts again Tom  I just find the chest-pounding farcical 

[andrewpttsbrgh]

[/quote]

The terms were coined to refer to personality types. However, not all Alphas are leaders and not all Betas are followers.
[/quote]

Thank you.  I'm still learing the terms and psychology of everything.  I'm still learing how to properly put my thoughts into writing.  My personality type is very simple.  I'm an ENFJ simple as that.  It's a very scientific test I took in college. 
Drew

[TomT]

Signs of insecurity? Are you reading your posts again Tom  I just find the chest-pounding farcical 

Your cloaking seems to have failed and the timing was impeccable.


p.s.

Drew,

Don't be concerned about the exchange between Putin and myself; he has an unnatural attraction to me and it affects his judgment.

[Slumba]

I think there is enough variation amongst FSUW, that what an American woman considers "Alpha" would not necessarily mean the same man, even if he is fluent in Russian and there is appropriate cultural adjustment, would be considered Alpha.

For instance, take a woman who re-reads 2 or 3 classics of Russian literature every year.  Would Mr. Harley Riding Tattooed Bad Boy who last picked up a book when he was looking for something else, be someone she would necessarily go for?  Or would he be seen by her as low-class and uninteresting?

TomT, isn't part of your appeal to your wife, on an intellectual level (and I sure, physical and emotional/spiritual too of course) ?  Are all "American Alphas" someone who could sustain the level of discourse you can handle?

I hope I am making my point clearly enough ... knowledge of Bach and the differences between Tureck, Gould, and Jeno Jando's performances might be considered an Alpha trait with some women.

[Brasscasing]

Thought I'd bump this topic from the archives as it might have some relevance here.

Brass

[Rasputin]

Don't be concerned about the exchange between Putin and myself; he has an unnatural attraction to me and it affects his judgment.

Poor Tom, you must be starved for attention if you must cling vainly to such misguided hopes and dreams 

[NS1]

 
 

[RG]

A funny thread.  A few good zingers in there, too. 
It's also amusing to see someone talking about alpha looks and checkbooks, as well as just in general rattling on.  But hey, if this isn't the right thread for it, probably none are. 

I've got to say my "first definition," meaning the one that immediately comes to mind without thought, is pretty simple. 
A beta waits to see what someone else is doing, and an alpha just does, and beyond that, is generally respected and/or followed as a result. 
Someone trying desperately to convince others of how "alpha they are" is a beta self-fluffing, or pretending.

That's it.

If we go deeper, it's likely to find both alpha and beta traits in nearly everyone except the narcissist and BPD types.
This is where Cuffy's "checkbook and looks" comments might be more appropriate; I probably won't agree on the same definitions as his, as alpha traits are in personality, covering it with physical or assets isn't directly appropriate, more like a learned compensation, or in some cases, contributing or resultant factors in someone being, or having some amount of alpha qualities, but I wouldn't call either sufficient by itself.

Once we get past the pissing match, someone might well bring up other personality type indicators or measurements, and one person may well argue that only "extroverted" types are alphas.  There might be some disagreement there, with JFK, James Taylor, and many more being among them. 

"Speak softly and carry a big stick" = alpha, or poser?
< excessive babble about career, friends, purchases, etc. > = alpha, beta, or poser (trying to pass as alpha)?
Someone that leads by "excessive talk and annoyance/talking over others" in social circles = alpha, beta or poser?
Someone that is constantly asked for advice in their social circles = alpha, beta or poser?
Someone that leads in their relationship but not at work = alpha, beta or poser?
Someone that leads in their work (including dangerous  ones, e.g. police, firefighter, etc.) but is more laid back at home = alpha, beta, or poser?
Someone who uses "I" in every sentence when talking about work done by others = alpha, beta, poser, or a$$hole?

You get the point. 
What should matter in this context (RUA) is mainly that women don't adore indecisive men, and need to respect them, using whatever particular means they use to define respect, which may well include but is certainly not limited to interactions with her, with others, or career, or simply how he acts/reacts under pressure and does what he says he'll do, and is not necessarily the overbearing annoyance we occasionally see stomping through RUA or in normal life.

Maybe we can convince Miss A and Millaa to weigh in?

Back to   

[AvHdB]

Referring to Brass's post the topic is interesting but slightly different. One reply from ForgeMaster stands out. It is worth reading.

Oddly enough I posted this on Ask a woman but so far it is just guys, not a problem just curious.

Hi group,
  I am not sure how to start this one.  It seems that there is a difference between what makes a good husband and what we think makes a good husband and what we think will attract a woman.  Maybe a guy can find a woman who will go along with him, but he is self-centered and repulsive after a while.  Maybe a woman is looking for a man who is "strong", whatever that means, and she marries him, but he does not take the time needed to help his foreign wife adapt to life in a new culture.  Maybe he has no idea what is happening inside her heart and just goes on with his "strong" man things that he does.  We are not talking about two people who grew up in the same town here.  We are talking about a serious, cross-cultural experience that requires total dedication from both people to survive for even a year or two.  If it is difficult to survive when an AM marries an AW, then this is 10 times harder when both people are from different cultures.  This is not the kind of brute force activity that we see in the cartoon.  This is sensitive, caring, dedicated WORK that goes on day after day after day.  It is not a place for brutes and animals.  This is where I will talk about the true meaning of STRONG.
  Strong is an inner confidence that is based on a lifestyle and behavioral style that works.  It is consistent and dedicated.  It does not wilt in front of somebody with another opinion, but it is willing to discuss the possibility of change with anyone.  Strong is flexible, but determined.  Strong knows its limitations and works hard to succeed in spite of them.  Strong does not need to be overly aggressive, because that does not usually work.  Strong is in the story of thousands of men on Memorial day who did things just because they had to be done and if they didn't do it, nobody else was around to do that job.  They didn't want credit for metals.  The heroes thanked their brothers who died, who they said deserved the credit more than them.  Really strong men are often quiet.  It is the actions of strong men that distinguishes them; words are no measure of a man.  Strong emails are just rain driven by the wind.  Real strength is the water that slowly carves channels out of rock over time.  It is consistent, loving, caring, compassionate actions that put others before self. 
  "Strong" is also being willing to change.  We think of strong people as inflexible.  This is not true.  Inflexible people will be broken.  They are not needed by society.  They are rejected outright as anti-social.  I was impressed by the last guy who posted, (I am sorry, but I forget your name and I cannot go back and look when I am writing this).  He was willing to go without any preparations, with no language, having never been there before.  He was willing to go there and be totally at the mercy of other people.  Now I am not saying I would do that, but it shows something about the level of dedication (some would use other descriptions, I am sure) that he was willing to undergo to find a wife.  I hope that his dedication continues into whatever relationship he develops and into his old age. 
  "Strong" is a long-haul trait, not a "shoot em up and head em out, flash-in-the-pan" kind of lifestyle.  It does not change over time; it just gets stronger.  Note that his lifestyle and attitudes and life roles may change, but his STRENGTH will not change.  There is nothing more tiring than to watch one of these little Jack Russel Terriers for about 20 minutes.  They think they are God's gift to the world.  However, when all is said and done and they sit there bloody from their last hunting kill, you wonder what ever made you decide to bring that puppy home.  It will dig a hole in the yard big enough to bury it a full-grown bear and then go out to kill it.  That is the image that many have of an "alpha male".  It is fun to watch for a few minutes, but it is not sustainable.  It is not a long-haul quality in terms of relationships unless Alpha Jack finds a very, very, very very tolerant woman and is willing to spend the rest of her life telling this poor soul how great his most recent kill was, ignoring her own accomplishments.
  This is completely different, but it needs to be said.  I think that Russians are much more family oriented than most American men are.  When I think of a Russian family who lives in a 3 room apartment with 3 generations of family, it is not the kind of situation in which our American STRONG men would be found.  These families are doing what is needed to survive, not what builds their egos.  Strength is not measured by the number of tools in the garage (what garage!!???) or the size of the guy's truck (what truck?); it is measured by how well he gets along with his family every day, providing what he can to provide for them.  I saw precious few BIG men in Russia.  Most were small next to me, but I was not in an area that boasted of lumberjacks and cowboys, either.  In societies where our means of making a living is changing, men are not often tossing around 300 pound factory fixtures like I grew up with.  Most of us are not wrestling horses or cutting wood every day.  We don't have friends who are missing fingers or legs from machinery accidents like we had only a few years ago.  We need to give up our old ideas of "strong" as if we were still warriors and get with the new program.  No, I think that a Russian mama of a strong man would be glad that he stayed around to take care of her when she needed it.  After all, she raised him when he was pretty helpless and pathetic.  It is his turn to do the helping.  That is what is means to be an adult; it is learning to give back to others who are not able to help themselves. 
  But then some boys just never grow up and we still look at them as being "strong" and "alpha".  What is that all about?

ForgeMaster

[FreeRabbit]

Alphas in animals are just the ones who are the leaders, right? But in human terms, whichever side you're on the other side seems to be negative.

This is is how I think humans misinterpret the difference:
Teddy Roosevelt's quote is my favorite, mentioned by RG earlier: "Speak softly and carry a big stick." By our modern definition, anyone who does that among us guys is considered to be a "beta" and has nobody's respect.

There are examples in my family where the kitchen has caught on fire (I was 14) and my step-grandfather fell over clutching his chest (I was 20 something). In both cases, though I always speak softly, the rest of the family is running around screaming while I put out the fire or tended to my "grandpa Mac" while calmly handing my sister the phone and asking my stepbrother to go outside & look for the ambulance.
In groups of people working on some kind of project, I usually get the ball rolling and start with the ideas and the delegation, but I have never in my life been bossy to anyone...

On the other hand:
I've suffered a lot of men who lend a helping hand in something I have no experience with, i.e. plumbing repair, or that they assume (wrongly) that I have no experience with, i.e. turning brake rotors - and can't just be knowledgable and carry a big stick, but are compelled to unzip and measure their stick first, and strut around like a rooster to put me in my place.

And if that's what an "alpha" needs to do to impress people and feign superiority, it's synonymous with "dick" and I'd consider it an insult if anyone referred to me as an alpha.

[rosco]

Would you guys not agree that 'the alpha male', is the guy who's charismatic and seemly unrattled in most scenario's. He's a man's man who they look up to and the women want to be with him.

Slice it up how you wish into money, looks, physical appearance etc but I think its almost impossible to break down exactly what the alpha is? It's similar to charisma in that you can't necessarily put your finger on it - other people just want to be with the alpha.

[TomT]

TomT, isn't part of your appeal to your wife, on an intellectual level (and I sure, physical and emotional/spiritual too of course) ? 

I have no idea what she was thinking; when I try to second-guess something, I'm often wrong. Besides, on a given day, I am considerably less appealing than others (except to Putin; he always adores me but that's another story). Fortunately, the distance makes spontaneous flight inconvenient.

When I expressed my opinion that Alpha characteristics were advantageous, I was referring to averages because the outcome of an individual event is unpredictable. Keeping one's word is advantageous as well and one doesn't have to be an Alpha-type to do that. 

Are all "American Alphas" someone who could sustain the level of discourse you can handle?

Someone can be decisive and confident without being articulate. (Good examples are the characters that John Wayne used to play.) In a world where winning by killing one's adversaries is considered to be rude, being able to express oneself is useful, though.

[cufflinks]

Having been to Moscow and seeing young 20 and 30 something Male Russian Alpha Primes in action - whereas in Soviet times ones' class was almost always tied to Academic achievement thus the primacy of learning among Russians in general even today - now the saying is in Moscow "If you are so smart why are you not Rich?"

Since a small apartment in a decrepit old soviet Apt building with what can only be described as a crack house decorated elevator and common areas can run an easy $2 million USD for a one bedroom unit near Arbat and rents for $1500 USD a week - a $ Million is nothing in Moscow StP NYC London or Tokyo for that matter...

An Alpha in Moscow today is determined by how much wealth you have and how much more you can create.  I was told 30 Million USD or more is only upper middle class, 100 Million USD or more - rich "Alpha", $1 Billion or more USD "Clever Guy" Alpha+ and multi USD Billionaire - "Very Kool Guy" - "Alpha Prime" - if you are not in any of these categories - you are not a Russian Alpha.

[Rasputin]

Someone can be decisive and confident without being articulate.

One can be decisive, confident and an utter idiot. As they say, fools often rush in where angels fear to tread. Yes, sometimes this will lead to success, but invariably it will lead to colossal failure. Yes, some women will prefer the brash men gushing confidence in spite of not truly having thought something through, but others avoid such men like the plague 

[Muzh_1]

I always think of an alpha as someone who doesn't give a    what the others think.