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Author Topic: How the story turned out for American man & Russian woman: Don't touch me, marry  (Read 51315 times)

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Online andrewfi

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AJ, in general principal I think that you are right.

Thing is that the behaviour that Phil noted was likely not too unusual in terms of two people, new to each other. I'd bet that it fell within normal range of behaviour. But when living together those same traits, when continued, become unusual and a problem.

Don't forget that Phil did not marry the woman, he learned fast enough and did the right stuff.

He also hung on for too long, but having been where is, I understand that. I think that in a similar situation you probably would do the same - take it from me, there are people who seek out people with BPD for the benefits of such a relationship. That's not something I could do it is exploitative and often I'd think abusive but it happens. Being with a BPD is not all bad.
...everything ends always well; if it’s still bad, then it’s not the end!

Online AvHdB

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For Phil I can say I have respect for his sharing this & for trying so hard to make the relationship be a success.

For others I think one can learn, take time to know who you are marrying. Make sure you speak the same language. Be certain you can resolve conflicts before the jump.

There is also a teenage daughter and maybe if we all live long we might see her side of the journey.

Phil saw red flags, but often in this endeavor there are red flags. If you can NOT trust your own judgement than a best friend or perhaps a winger can see the potential problems.

Perhaps in the end hope for the best and expect the worst.
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

Offline Philnatseaman

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For Phil I can say I have respect for his sharing this & for trying so hard to make the relationship be a success.

For others I think one can learn, take time to know who you are marrying. Make sure you speak the same language. Be certain you can resolve conflicts before the jump.

There is also a teenage daughter and maybe if we all live long we might see her side of the journey.

Phil saw red flags, but often in this endeavor there are red flags. If you can NOT trust your own judgement than a best friend or perhaps a winger can see the potential problems.

Perhaps in the end hope for the best and expect the worst.

Thank you for your kind words.  I really did try to make it work. 
With BPD, and yes, I stand by that assertion 100%, it simply changes everything.
The man I refer to as Scout in my other posts was the wildcard here.  He appointed himself as my wingman, and assured me these things were cultural differences, he had worked through challenges with his wife, she would be fine and we would work through things and have a happy ending once she was here.  From Scout's point of view, I needed to just go ahead and marry her already.

Something I didn't fully pick up on in AndrewFi's earlier posts was when he mentioned Korvalol as being her "heart pills" that she was referring to on the video.  He connected some dots that I didn't pay attention to earlier.  Corvalol (USA spelling) is, as I understand it, like a "lite" version of Valium, that she used to calm her mood swings.  However, in the USA, Corvalol is a controlled substance; in her country, it is sold like aspirin, over the counter.  She didn't bring enough Corvalol with her, and when she ran out, she used alcohol instead.  I don't drink much, but I had a decent liquor collection.  In a few weeks time, she wiped out everything I had with alcohol in it.  She functioned as an alcoholic while she was here with me.  And she smoked like a chimney, again to calm her nerves.

I can say that if BPD weren't involved, everything probably would have worked out between us.  However, that's a false premise, because if she didn't have BPD, she would have probably had enough local interest that she wouldn't have been looking on the international dating site where I met her.  Even with the BPD, I learned ways to work with her and communicate better with her.  The problem by that point was that the BPD experience was so unrewarding for me that I didn't want to have to work that hard.  When I come home from a demanding day of work, I want to be able to just be myself, and not have to switch into a special BPD-friendly communication mode, that it turns out is a lot of extra work.  Maybe if I had been willing to do that, it would have gotten easier and easier to do with practice.  More likely, if I had married this particular woman, I would be out about $30K in spousal support and child support by now, like the guy in California whose parallel story I learned from, and be a broke and blubbering mess.


Offline Philnatseaman

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andrewfi- agree she likely dint try to hide anything,
if she  truly suffers a disorder she would be oblivious to it in many cases.

The OP complained about her acting this way when they were engaged and
he was visiting her in Ukraine.
She relocated on a K1, so as a fiancee in the states, engaged,
he posted and complained that she was acting exactly has she had on his last visit in Ukraine.

My point was this thread just seemed to be missing the forest, for all the trees.
It really doesn't matter why she acted like she did?
Her behavior was already not compatible with the OP after they were engaged in her country.
She then ,not at all surprisingly, acted exactly the same when they were engaged and in his country.
There just dint seem to be a need to dig deeper than the obvious.

This isn't about looking back differently with 20/20 hindsight,  or there  being a need to be prescient?

This is about staring at incompatible behavior, completely  acknowledging it at the time,
and with absolutely no reason whatsoever to think it might change,.
to then expect it to be different when she relocates.

It isn't cultural, it is incompatible behavior.
It wasn't buried in any circumstances that could cloud it, it was right in his face.
In her country, then exactly the same in his.

 That seems a lesson guys need to hear.

The points about   not being able to see the problems clearly as she might have had BPD which is hard to diagnose, or how they will have more difficulty sorting out behaviors in another language and culture? While true,  and those points have their own merit, that was not really the fundamental  issue here?

He could tell, it was plain as day tio him , and he somehow expected a different result.

unrealistic expectations do a lot of these  relationships  in, both from the men and the women involved.

That just seems  the real lesson here?

I felt that I would fully win her over in the USA and that we would be a great team here.
There was very high upside, or so I ignorantly thought, and I figured the worst that could happen is that I'd stick with her long enough to get her citizenship, and we'd part amicably and go our separate ways.
So it was partly foolish overconfidence on my part.
Dealing with her BPD was a whole different thing.  I was not prepared for that.  It was a psychologically battering experience being on the receiving end of her mood swings and rages, and just not a very enjoyable way to go through life.  I've helped three different people this year at my work identify that their boss is showing traits of either a BPD or a Narcissist.  I recognize the signs in the codependent.  One of the tell-tale signs is that they are "psychologically battered", "drained of life energy/drained of enthusiasm for life".  In one case, the boss was displaying NPD behaviors.  In the other case, a woman I dated, I at first thought it was her problem.  As the data points added up, I realized that her boss was, in fact, displaying classic BPD behaviors, including the classic "I hate you--don't leave me!!" behavior that BPDs display.  Her sense of reality and propriety was way out of whack, and it had started to seep over into other areas of her life.  This is the effect an intimate relationship with a BPD or NPD usually has on a "non".  It turns out that two other women I dated over a 5 year period have NPD exes (approx 15 year marriages), and a third I dated years ago, but am good friends with and now rents from me, also has a BPD ex, so I've seen it through their eyes too.  Exes of BPD and NPD partners share a bond of understanding it is difficult to put into words for those who haven't had that experience.  The gal with a BPD ex got beaten up with a baseball bat when she tried to leave him.  Then he wedged a knife into the frig door and backed into it to make it look like she had stabbed him, and his actions were self-defense.  He beat her so severely she spent 18 months incapacitated, and he got custody of their 2 kids.  He never faced criminal charges.  He was not physically violent during their marriage, but he snapped, in a moment of BPD "toddler rage", like what I saw when my ex-fiancee grabbed the steering wheel and yanked while I was driving 60mph and nearly crashed the car and killed us all (including her daughter).  AndrewFi has recounted roughly parallel stories involving his ex.  It's hard for someone who hasn't been in a close relationship with a BPD or NPD to believe a partner would actually do things like that.  The normal tendency is to think they (the "non") must be making it up, and they must be the one with the problem.

With 20/20 hindsight, I can identify several points, in hindsight, where now I would pull the plug immediately on a relationship with any woman who behaved in ways she did.  At the time, what I did instead, because I lacked experience and was trying to find ways to make it work, was showed her signs that I would be a good little codependent that she as a BPD could properly control.  I foolishly looked at her behaviors as female "tests" that women routinely do to men to gauge their suitability as a partner, and figured they were reasonable, since she was the one would be moving halfway around the world.  She mistook my ability to deal with her mood swings as a sign that she would be able to control and manipulate me.  So she came to the USA fully thinking I was someone she could use her usual tricks to control, and I brought her to the USA believing in her promises that once here, she would just be a normal calm woman, and we would make everything work.

Good judgment comes from experience.  Experience often comes from bad judgment and mistakes.  Now I'm much more experienced.

Offline Philnatseaman

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AJ, I doubt she hid anything.

The behaviour about which he was concerned in the US may well have had some aspects of similarity to back in Ukraine but those baheviours would have been much more normal in the context of her in her home environment with a stranger. In the US with her future husband? Not the same.

Should those things have been talked about? Probably but what would have come of it?

Learning of the scale and extent of the issues takes time. I know that if I had known almost 8 years ago what I learned about 4 years ago then things would have been very different, but I didn't and the scale and extent were different. Both women were functioning in ther own environment and problems came when they changed their respective worlds. They were both ill before but nobody knew. In both cases I am sure that family would have known there was something a little off, but not more.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but prescience, whilst wonderful is mainly an imaginary trait. ;)

Tom BPD is almost always associated with some other illness and often is misdiagnosed as being the primary illness, this is called comorbidity and is a bit of a bugger. Sadly the outcomes are different.

She assured me she was just very nervous and would just be a normal calm woman once in the USA.  So we did talk about it a certain amount.
Her mother and daughter were, in hindsight, both very aware of her issues.
Her mother had the police remove her from her apartment several years earlier.  I thought that seemed odd, to call the police on your own daughter, but it makes total sense in hindsight.

Re the comorbidity:  I suspect there may be some other things along with the BPD, possibly some Antisocial Personality Disorder (APD). However, the BPD is the only one where she clearly and consistently checked all the boxes, and the more I learned, the more clear it became.  It's common for BPDs to show traits of NPDs, and vice-versa.  However, there are too many pieces missing to go with NPD.  Her traits and behaviors that match a BPD diagnosis were so consistent and dominant, that whatever else is there, BPD is front and center as the primary condition.

Offline blast

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Phil... I had a similar experience with a Russian Ukraine woman from Kz.  Online relationship May2001 until first visit Dec 2001... AndrewFi has it described exactly (when relations were warm, best love I had ever experienced). Second visit Dec 2002, Work assignment to her country July 2003, Married in KZ Sept 2003, Her son was 12 when we married.  The controlling ways started showing just after the wedding, but I could suffer the hate swings because the loving times were so deep-felt.  We moved to USA Jan 2005, and she obtained USA passport Oct 2010, Divorced Jan 2011 (same month Son turned 18).  I would not change if I had to do it over again, as I had the longsuffering kind of love for her, and I still love my step-son even today!

Offline between

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Quote
In a few weeks time, she wiped out everything I had with alcohol in it.
Wow. This story is hard to read. You should try CODA. I think you will get a lot from it.

Online andrewfi

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In a few weeks time, she wiped out everything I had with alcohol in it.
Wow. This story is hard to read. You should try CODA. I think you will get a lot from it.

What is CODA?
...everything ends always well; if it’s still bad, then it’s not the end!

Online AvHdB

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child of deaf adults - Lena was coda & had none of the issues that Phil describes.

but perhaps CODA is some acronym for co - dependent drug alcohol abusers?
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

Offline Philnatseaman

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In a few weeks time, she wiped out everything I had with alcohol in it.
Wow. This story is hard to read. You should try CODA. I think you will get a lot from it.

CoDA is "CoDependents Anonymous".
When you read the whole story, you will see that she *thought* and *hoped* I would be a good little codependent for her Borderline Personality Disorder needs, and would make a good victim. The story ended with a pre-emptive strike on my part to get her the hell out of my life.  A good little codependent would NEVER do something like that. The point was that she mis-read me.  Codependency isn't a major issue for me, and hasn't been since at least my late 20's.  I did a lot of work on the ACOA (Adult Child of Alcoholics) codependent issues I had in my 20's. John Bradshaw was my friend.

In fact it's much more like I attract codependents, relationship-wise.  I mentioned that the "compatibility" sites tended to match me up with former codependents of Narcissists and Borderlines, and those were the women I wound up having relationships with. Codependents have their awesome moments.  After a while, it gets old, because the "caring" and "niceness" and "giving" gets revealed as "controlling", and in fact it's "given" with a lot of strings attached.

So I have taken my girlfriend, the one who helped me extricate myself, to CODA meetings, to give her the chance to look at her codependent behaviors.  In my area, CoDA is not well organized, and the meetings are not well attended.  It may be different elsewhere.  She didn't really click with CoDA.  Eventually, I got the bright idea to take her to Al-Anon, and it turns out Al-Anon has an awesome program for codependents; they just focus it on alcohol-related codependents. In my area, Al-Anon is well-organized, well-attended.  I went to a number of Al-Anon meetings with her at first; I am entitled (lol) to go, as a result of having an alcoholic mother.  In truth, when I'm at one of the meetings, it's peaceful and happy; I'm just in a different place; those issues aren't primary issues for me anymore, and I feel inauthentic being there, so I don't go.

Still, even after about 10-15 meetings, my girlfriend didn't see it has "her" issue; she said she didn't really have raging alcoholics around her growing up.  Then one day we were talking about a half-sister of hers, who she mentioned was a drunk, and my girlfriend had hosted her in her house for 2 years as a young adult, let the half-sister drive her nice new Camaro, etc.  She mentioned that she was always having to keep the half-sister out of trouble when they went out, because she would get sloppy drunk, and in general was always having to watch over the half-sister and keep her from getting drunk and doing stupid and destructive things.  When I asked her who appointed her to be in charge of controlling the alcoholic half-sister, suddenly the light bulb went on for her.  Clear as day, she realized she had been engaged in codependent behavior trying to control an alcoholic.  That realization on her part was a couple days before I broke up with her for, you guessed it, codependent behavior on her part, trying to control me, and repeatedly failing to respect behavioral boundaries I set for her.  So I dumped her.  I'd rather find a new one.

At that point, my girlfriend took ownership in her codependent issues, realized that issue was HERS to own, for HERSELF, not something she was doing FOR ME, and started working on her Al-Anon program seriously.  I'm still in shock; I'd given up on anything like that ever happening.  We are back together now, and she is still working hard on her Al-Anon program, going to meetings a couple times a week.  It's wonderful-it's like she's a different girl, like getting an awesome new girlfriend, only better.

I view ex's of BPDs and NPDs as codependents of the personality-disordered partner, not as codependents of an alcoholic, or drug abuser or sex addict, or any other addiction that is really a symptom of the underlying personality disorder.  BPDs and NPDs take an ordinary codependent and beat them down about 10 times harder than a regular old addict, in a way that is extremely draining of the person's life energy.

In any case, it has been my experience that Al-Anon has the best, most mature program for codependents, whatever they are codependents of.  The only catch is that generally you are expected to name "alcohol" as the demon underlying the codependent behavior, even if it's something else, other drugs, personality disorders, etc.   Most people can find an alcoholic within a generation or two, if nothing else, the alcoholic grandpa on dad's side who abandoned grandma but they never actually met. Close enough for Al-Anon.

The reason my BPD ex-fiancee drank all that alcohol was to calm her nerves, an issue that was a *symptom* of BPD, and alcohol was one form of temporary escape. Other escapes were chain-smoking, and compulsively playing near-mindless computer games, anything that engaged her thinking and distracted her from emotions.
The treatment gaining traction for BPDs is a thing called Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, or DBT for short, which is a "talk" therapy, often with no medication involved.

The other irony here is that my BPD ex-fiancee would also qualify as a codependent.  Her true love was a heroin addict Russian-mafia-gangster-type.  If the stories she told when drinking were true, she engaged in massive codependent behavior trying to "save" him from his addiction.  He OD'ed and died about 18 months before I met her.  Stories others have told me about him, diverging from her sanitized version, said that she had to avoid having cell phones (or anything valuable/pawnable) around him because he would steal them and sell them to buy his drugs.



Online 2tallbill

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Phil, I think you made some egregious errors but you managed to get through
them with you life and sanity intact.

One of the mods said I was mean to you (privately he said this) and after
reflection on those comments I agree.

I apologize

I hope all is well with you

Udachi!

Bill
FSUW are not for entry level daters. FSUW don't do vague FSUW like a man of action so be a man of action  If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane. There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.
Get an apartment not a hotel. DON'T recycle girls

Offline Philnatseaman

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Phil... I had a similar experience with a Russian Ukraine woman from Kz.  Online relationship May2001 until first visit Dec 2001... AndrewFi has it described exactly (when relations were warm, best love I had ever experienced). Second visit Dec 2002, Work assignment to her country July 2003, Married in KZ Sept 2003, Her son was 12 when we married.  The controlling ways started showing just after the wedding, but I could suffer the hate swings because the loving times were so deep-felt.  We moved to USA Jan 2005, and she obtained USA passport Oct 2010, Divorced Jan 2011 (same month Son turned 18).  I would not change if I had to do it over again, as I had the longsuffering kind of love for her, and I still love my step-son even today!

I understand, and your feelings make total sense to me.  There are parts about my BPD ex-fiancee that I still miss.  In truth, most of what I miss were really just my own idealized fantasies of how I projected things would be. I miss what could have been (if only...) rather than what actually was.  I've gotten better and faster at instead calling to mind her random mood swings, her coldness, and the pure evil demon that would show itself on a regular basis.  Usually picturing us on opposite sides of the courtroom in family court snapped me out of it.  That, and the good times weren't quite good enough, and nowhere near frequent enough, to put up with the downside.  At least you got your share of actual good times mixed in.

In truth, I got a priceless education in dealing with sociopathic* behavior.  I learned a lot, and it has helped me make sense out of a lot of things in this world that were very puzzling before my experiences with her.  I understand politics much better, for one, particularly national & international politics.

*The criminal justice types flip the terms, and refer to a sociopath as a psychopath, and vice versa.  Dr. Robert Hare, vs. Dr Martha Stout, "The Sociopath Next Door". I prefer Stout's terminology.

It sounds like you possibly got off easy from the family court standpoint too, with the son turning 18 and not being stuck for years of child support.  I'm also not hearing from you that the divorce was contentious and expensive--so you were very fortunate, it seems.

My observation from all this is that most people have a hard time understanding what it's like being in relationship with a BPD or NPD.
AndrewFi is the one person I've run across here who has always been spot-on with his comments and insight on anything involving a relationship with a BPD woman.

I don't know if he has any specific advice for helping the 18 year old son (who I assume is normal rather than personality-disordered) but if he does I would sure try to follow it. The son is probably going to have some long-term emotional scars from dealing with the mom for all those years.  With any luck you were able to be a preventive influence on that along the way.

Offline Philnatseaman

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Phil, I think you made some egregious errors but you managed to get through
them with you life and sanity intact.

One of the mods said I was mean to you (privately he said this) and after
reflection on those comments I agree.

I apologize

I hope all is well with you

Udachi!

Bill

I made major errors all along the way, right up until the time I got a restraining order and had her removed.   Out of all the dumb things I did, the one reasonably smart thing I did was to not give in to her pressure and marry her quickly.  I was very fortunate to have the education be less costly than some of the other horror stories I've read here in the Train Wreck room.

My agenda here has been to share my story so that others can learn from my mistakes. I've done my best to present things as accurately (and reasonably impartially) as I can.  The constraint of course, is that people are only getting MY point of view, not hers.  I've got some interesting updates from Scout, the guy who was helping her. I will post them  here if I have time.

Bill, I hope in my responses to you, I didn't say anything that was out of bounds.  I apologize if I did.  I wish you peace and prosperity.

Offline Slumba

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I have come across a pretty interesting link that talks about BPD and how the BPD can really enmesh you in their dysfunction.

http://gettinbetter.com/needlove.html (more general)

http://gettinbetter.com/key.html (specific to BPD)

And other pages on that site.

One thing I read somewhere else - the guy said that his BPD girl, "smelled" absolutely fantastic to him, even when she was not wearing perfume; that it was just some kind of heady natural scent.  Did you notice any physiological things like that?

Anchors Rewoven

Offline Philnatseaman

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Here is an email chain from a while back. Names & #'s have been changed. Scout, the man who tried to help her, emailed me acknowledging he had been duped, and that Nastya had confessed to multiple people that he rape story was made up.  She has been successful in milking it for a "U" Visa thus far.

I forwarded Scout's email to the detective who "signed on" to her "U" Visa request, that his "star witness" now acknowledges that her entire story was a lie. (Scout did not know at the time he helped her that it was a lie).  The response from the detective?  Crickets chirping.  Zippo, zilch, nada.

Scout has subsequently contacted me to get other information to share with USCIS and other enforcement agencies, to expose the U visa fraud.
If you ware wondering about the Julia Biryukova reference, just google her name.  Or read this article:
https://www.nationalparentsorganization.org/blog/20507-a-year-after-sky-metalwala-s-disappearance-julia-biryukova-living-off-state-taxpayers
Note Ms. Biryukova's cleverness in gaming the system and the system's total lack of interest in prosecuting an obvious crime.
Sociopaths (e.g., BPDs like my ex and probably also Ms. Biryukova) love, love, love "setup" scams where the setup is so good that multiple things work together for them, like getting you to dig your own grave, just before they push you in.


==================================================================
To: detectiveIBenPunkt@co.mycounty.wa.us
Cc: Scout@McTool.com
Subject: Nastya Bardalinkova "rape" case--she has admitted allegations were false, made up. Another Julia Biryukova wasting precious resources

Hello Detective I. Ben Punkt,
I understand that you have helped Ms. Nastya Bardalinkova fill out a "U" crime victims visa application.
She has admitted her allegations against me were false.  Those she confessed to are willing to testify to this.
I suggest that instead of helping Ms. Bardalinkova with her fraudulent "U" Visa application, you should withdraw support for this, and contact Mr. McTool.
Ms. Bardalinkova also confessed to Scout McTool's son, Rusty McTool, and his wife, that her allegations against me were fraudulent.  She also acknowledged this to Mr. McTool's wife, Alla.  And now Ms. Bardalinkova mocks the stupid American system for how easy it was to dupe everyone.
As I understand it, filing a false police report is a crime.  That is exactly what Ms. Bardalinkova knowingly did.
I ask that you do the following:
1) Please contact Mr. Scout McTool at your earliest opportunity, to discuss the case, and hear his information about Ms. Bardalinkova's confession that her allegations against me were false.  His #'s are 360-555-7777 home, 360-555-4444 cell.
2) After contacting Mr. McTool, I suggest you contact USCIS to share the new information you have.
3) Discuss with the prosecutor about filing charges against Ms. Bardalinkova for filing a false police report, and other appropriate sanctions.
Part of the issue here is that Ms. Bardalinkova is beginning to engage in a pattern of this type of behavior.  Protecting innocent citizens from malicious false allegations, and avoiding the wasting of precious law enforcement and court resources should make it worth pursuing.   A serial false accuser like Ms. Bardalinkova needs to be stopped before she can ruin or attempt to ruin more innocent lives.  We are dealing with a mentally ill woman.  She is unstable in a way similar to Julia Biryukova, the woman who "lost" her 2-year-old daughter when she ran out of gas.
Please help put a stop to this serial false accuser before she damages more innocent people's lives and wastes massive amounts more of law enforcement and court resources.
Sincerely,
Phi Natseaman

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:    RE: Reconnecting Daria with the other half of her family
Date:    Wed, 8 Feb 2012
From:    Scout McTool <Scout@McTool.com>
Reply-To:    <Scout@McTool.com>
To:    Phil Natseaman <Natseaman@gmail.com>
Hi Phil,
 Thanks for the information!
 I have something you might be interested in.
3 different people have told me that Nastya has been bragging how she made up the whole rape story. (for a U-visa)
They would be willing to tell the police their stories.
Also I got Nastya's address, she is in USA but not Washington state.
She sure played me, and I would like to see her get in trouble over her false police reports.
I have no contact with either her or Daria because Nastya is stopping Daria from contacting me, but Daria will find a way and contact me again ....soon I hope.
 Cheers,
Scout

Online andrewfi

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Re: How the story turned out for American man & Russian woman: Don't touch me, m
« Reply #215 on: September 18, 2013, 02:58:44 AM »
Slumba, don't you recognise the scent of your woman? Don't you find it exciting and a turn on?

I thought that was normal.
...everything ends always well; if it’s still bad, then it’s not the end!

Offline Philnatseaman

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I have come across a pretty interesting link that talks about BPD and how the BPD can really enmesh you in their dysfunction.

http://gettinbetter.com/needlove.html (more general)

http://gettinbetter.com/key.html (specific to BPD)

And other pages on that site.

One thing I read somewhere else - the guy said that his BPD girl, "smelled" absolutely fantastic to him, even when she was not wearing perfume; that it was just some kind of heady natural scent.  Did you notice any physiological things like that?

No, my ex-fiancee simply smelled like any other chain-smoker.

In the second link you supplied, the stuff under ""STEP INTO MY PARLOR," SAID THE SPIDER TO THE FLY" is pretty much on-point.

From the same author and site, this link is very much on target for this discussion too:
http://gettinbetter.com/deathtrap.html


Offline Mikeav8r

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I have come across a pretty interesting link that talks about BPD and how the BPD can really enmesh you in their dysfunction.

http://gettinbetter.com/needlove.html (more general)

http://gettinbetter.com/key.html (specific to BPD)

And other pages on that site.

One thing I read somewhere else - the guy said that his BPD girl, "smelled" absolutely fantastic to him, even when she was not wearing perfume; that it was just some kind of heady natural scent.  Did you notice any physiological things like that?

No, my ex-fiancee simply smelled like any other chain-smoker.

In the second link you supplied, the stuff under ""STEP INTO MY PARLOR," SAID THE SPIDER TO THE FLY" is pretty much on-point.

From the same author and site, this link is very much on target for this discussion too:
http://gettinbetter.com/deathtrap.html

Then her name rang true...Nasty.  I am glad you came out of this with balls in tact unlike so many others.  tiphat
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2.  If you want to give God a good laugh, tell him your plans. - Anon

Online andrewfi

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One issue in all this is that it becomes easy to ascribe all faults and failings to BPD. In that last linked article that seems to be happening.

Folks with BPD have clear and identifiable traits but I think it does us no favours to blame BPD for everything. It certainly does not help real BPD sufferers.
...everything ends always well; if it’s still bad, then it’s not the end!

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One issue in all this is that it becomes easy to ascribe all faults and failings to BPD. In that last linked article that seems to be happening.

Folks with BPD have clear and identifiable traits but I think it does us no favours to blame BPD for everything. It certainly does not help real BPD sufferers.

That is very true, but it seems so hard to find a strategy to move forward with them. Having a son with Asperger's as well my brother in the same situation while nothing is perfect you can find means and techniques that can help everyone.

It seems almost impossible with BPD/BDP.
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

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It is almost impossible for people with BPD to form long lasting and close relationships

On the upside, over 70% of those diagnosed with BPD, if they live long enough, are able to live relatively normal lives; the symptoms tend to abate across the late 30's.
...everything ends always well; if it’s still bad, then it’s not the end!

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It is almost impossible for people with BPD to form long lasting and close relationships

On the upside, over 70% of those diagnosed with BPD, if they live long enough, are able to live relatively normal lives; the symptoms tend to abate across the late 30's.

Based on seeing two such relationships - my feeling it is very hard for those who suffer to see how toxic they are. That they improve leaves me scratching my skull.
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

Online andrewfi

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It is almost impossible for people with BPD to form long lasting and close relationships

On the upside, over 70% of those diagnosed with BPD, if they live long enough, are able to live relatively normal lives; the symptoms tend to abate across the late 30's.

Based on seeing two such relationships - my feeling it is very hard for those who suffer to see how toxic they are. That they improve leaves me scratching my skull.

I did not say that relationships improve, although new ones might well be better than earlier ones. I noted that the symptoms of BPD tend to abate.

Most people who have mental issues are unable to understand that they have a problem, that is normal.
...everything ends always well; if it’s still bad, then it’s not the end!

Offline Philnatseaman

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One issue in all this is that it becomes easy to ascribe all faults and failings to BPD. In that last linked article that seems to be happening.

Folks with BPD have clear and identifiable traits but I think it does us no favours to blame BPD for everything. It certainly does not help real BPD sufferers.

Agreed.  There are major differences between individuals with BPD, and also with NPD.
With BPD there seem to be 2 flavors, "Acting Inward" and "Acting Outward", with the differentiation that the Acting In type tends to direct a lot of their destructive behavior at themselves, e.g., cutting.  The Acting Outward type directs the destructive behavior more at others.  I've only seen this discussed a few times in different sources, and most of the literature is focused on the acting outward type, as they inflict the most damage on others.

Also a factor is the degree of Antisocial Personality Disorder (APD) traits present, manifesting as sociopathic behavior.  I believe my ex-fiance probably had a high degree of this going on.  The resources are confused and conflicting on APD, in that different "experts" use different labels, and group behaviors in ways that seem less useful (to me) in understanding the situation.  The sociopathic behavior (using Dr. Martha Stout's terminology, not Dr. Robert Hare's) often points to BPD or NPD. I tend to recognize the "codependent of a sociopath" behaviors in people, but have to have a lot more data to know if BPD, or NPD, or neither is a factor. Generally all I can do is point people to resources and suggest they take a look to see if that's what might be in play. One pair of gals at the office concluded their (female) boss seemed to have NPD behaviors.  A gal from the office I dated turned out to have a BPD (male) boss, but to me it seemed like he was fairly low on APD traits, e.g., as a BPD, she was his "close person" who he feared being abandoned by. He would do things behind her back to stifle her career, with the objective of keeping her in his chain of command, but at the same time he tried to take care of her in other ways.  She, being a major codependent, played right into his games.

My hope is that those reading my story will be able to identify enough commonalities or non-commonalities to determine if BPD (or NPD) is likely a factor in their situation.
A lot of BPD behavior will look very similar to NPD behavior if you are on the receiving end.  I think of them as two peas in a pod, and in fact often both are present, but one is more prominent. My ex-fiancee had a significant NPD streak to her behavior, but in the end, my belief is that BPD was much more the core issue.

I would certainly defer to AndrewFi on the prospects for getting a dear one help with BPD (or NPD).  In my case, my ex-fiancee was absolutely not interested in getting any sort of help, and to her, "I" was the one with problem, not her.  In my case, the risks to me were so sky-high, I had to confront her with the situation and ask her to get an assessment.  Her response was the predictable, "I don't have BPD, YOU have BPD". (Stop Walking On Eggshells, among others, predicts this will be the response in most cases)  My "wicked stepmother" is also BPD, and when my father arranged for us to do family counseling, the wicked stepmother bailed after two sessions, because "I", as a 17-year old, was the one the counseling should have focused on, and the therapist began asking HER to change her behavior.  So I am  0-for-1 in having any success with getting a person with BPD meaningful help, and 0-for-2 overall in seeing close people with BPD actually engage with any kind of professional help.  Clearly there are a lot of people out there with BPD that do seek out help, and do get better.  With my ex-fiancee, I had to make a call based on a time deadline, risk factors, and her insistence that the problem was 100% me, not her, so my call was to GET OUT.

Offline Philnatseaman

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Update:  Nastya is still in the USA, in the Los Angeles area.  After working as a volunteer, she says (on resume) she is working, apparently as some sort of equipment support person at a hospital.  If true, good for her.  However, she has a history of falsifying her resume, so it's hard to tell what's true.
Nastya probably has permanent residency by now, as it's been 2 years since her fraudulent "U" Visa application.

Her daughter Daria is still in that area now, and would be over 18 by now.  She looks about the same, and seems to be healthy and doing OK.

I have not heard from Scout in well over a year. 
I did find out in an earlier conversation with him, that he now understands his wife Alla is autistic, I think he told me that she was diagnosed as this in her old country.  Based on what I have seen and learned, It makes sense.  It also seems to make sense why she had an ongoing love/hate "friendship" with Nastya.  An autistic with a BPD.  BFF match made in heaven?  It's Scout's information on the diagnosis, not mine.  The last time I saw Alla was at the gathering at her and Scout's house, where she drank much vodka and repeatedly told me, "If you do not marry Nastya, I will keeel you!"  I think she came up to me and said that to me about 20 times that night.  Scout has complained how Alla is like a robot, and needs a tremendous amount of structure and routine to function.  I do not claim any special knowledge in in this area, simply sharing data.

I'm still seeing the gal who helped me through this mess, though it's been off and on, we seem to keep coming back to each other.

The reason I was here looking at this thread again is that I just got back from visiting my younger sister, and she is still struggling with issues involving our wicked stepmother Mallent (short for Malificent), who I realized is a classic BPD, as a result of my experience with Nastya.  Different from Nastya, yes, but with many, many of the same patterns.  Mallent was actually a doting, adoring wife to my father.  My father died about 5 years ago.  Since day 1, 35 years ago, Mallent has been extremely cruel and evil to my younger sister.  My younger sister was "Daddy's little sunshine" growing up.  Naturally, a BPD views that as a threat, and basically, the storyline is pretty much straight out of Cinderella, except without the wicked stepsisters.  My sister is an awesome gal, has four great kids now in their teens and early 20's, supportive husband, has done very well economically, educated, all-around great gal.  She is also still devastated by our father's emotional abandonment of her once wicked stepmother Mallent entered the picture. 

The final dig my Mallent, was at my father's funeral, to omit nearly all mention of his children (me, my sister, and older brother), and to list my ex-wife, his daughter in law, as a "daughter" in the memorial service program and obituary.  Not "ex-daughter-in-law", but "daughter".  It was a dig calculated to hurt my sister.  It did, tremendously.  Mallent allied with my ex-wife, to try to be "Grandma" to my children, something she and my father could do together, and she didn't feel it as a "threat" to receiving my father's exclusive loving attention.  At the same time, Mallent and my father shunned my sister's children, who are great kids, just like mine.  By shunning and denigrating her children, it meant my sister would be around my father less.  Typical sick, cruel (and unnecessary) BPD manipulation.

Given my experiences, one positive outcome of this is that I feel reasonably equipped to help people recognize, understand, and deal with sociopaths, particularly Borderlines with a side helping of Antisocial Personality Disorder, which I'm pretty sure are the boxes that best describe Nasty.  I am trying to help my sister understand the "pull" that BPDs, like our wicked stepmother Mallent, can have on close people in their lives (like my father), and how that affected our father.  Mostly, I'm trying to get her to take our father off the undeserved pedestal she put and kept him on, understand how he got sucked in, the strength of the BPD "brainwashing", and forgive him, and forgive Mallent, so she can move forward with her life. I hope to help her stop resenting Mallent and accept that it was our father's choice to go down that path, because of his own wounds, and Mallent bandaged up one huge emotional wound of my father's, while opening another almost as large.

The emotional wounds Mallent bandaged for my father?  My father's 23-year-old mother abandoned him when he was about age 5, running off with a boyfriend her age, leaving the violent, abusive 50-year old father, leaving him and his 1 younger/3 older brothers with that man.  His 50-year-old father died a year later, and then they all went to live with a foster family.  So he missed out on the years of adoration and motherly structure from age 5 on.  Mallent supplied the adoration and a very organized and structured approach to life that my father apparently needed.  Sadly, sickly, she chose to view my sister as a threat for his affection, and to attack her and denigrate her in his eyes.  He was so needy for her love that he then proceeded to behave in a testicle-free way, instead of standing up and making being a father to his children a priority.  (Mallent has no children)

When my father's mother passed away 10 years ago, he did not attend her memorial.  That spoke volumes to me about the wounds he still carries.
Wish me success with my sister.

I want to express again my appreciation and gratitude to everyone in this thread, who gave me such helpful advice.  Some of the early posts in particular were nearly psychic in hindsight.  I was fortunate to escape without loss of life and limb, without jail time on false allegations, and without any more economic damage than I'd already sustained.

If I learn anything new relative to Nastya, Daria, Scout, etc. in the next year, that is relevant to this story, I'll try to come back here and post an update.


 

 

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