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Author Topic: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question  (Read 6385 times)

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Offline Larry

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I wish you luck in your search.  I'm glad your experience has been better with the new women.  Have fun in Ukraine.  I hope you come back and tell us how things went.

Online andrewfi

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VSSKI, in truth, as you might well not have noticed, I was replying to a post from another RUA member that I had misread and missed that it was a parody. ;)

However, if the cap fits...

I do not know you from Adam, but there are some things we can take, as generalisations, to be useful indicators. For example, a bloke who was accustomed to dating women would be pretty unlikely to go round lobbing loads of dosh at bints in advance of building a fairly firm relationship. Experience suggests that blokes who tend to do soft headed stuff and accept 'oddness' of behaviour as some kind of weird normality are also likely to be somewhat lacking in recent match practice. Calibrating one's social radar and reality checking sensors is not a bad thing because you WILL come across women over here who WILL make it their goal to take advantage of your lack of match fitness.

So, it could be that every weekend you are going out with one or more from a selection of women with whom you share part of your life, but you and we know that that is unlikely to be true, yes?

Not all dating is about getting married, but all dating is practice at that part of relationship building that can, if we are fortunate, end with a happy and long lasting relationship. So, even if the women around you are unable to meet your high standards you do no wrong by engaging with them in order to increase your chances of future success!

However, this issue of match fitness goes further. We had a member, a really long time poster. A year or do ago he went off to Ukraine, IIRC to meet a woman with whom he had been communicating for eons. When he met her he started showering her with gifts. He had it in his head that this was what he should do. He had read here many, many times about the risks inherent in acting thus. He became very upset when she did not respond to his advances as positively as he had fantasized. Sadly, he too lacked match fitness, he committed himself to a woman, a stranger, who when she met him, felt nothing for him. Like others, he through no fault of his own  (he was, we are assured by him, a real catch!) was not dating women locally, probably they were not good enough for him. Because his sensors were not calibrated he had no way of understanding the dynamic of his relationship.

A truly important part of a 'winning' mindset is to understand that women are not a scarce commodity. Lovely women are not rare. You can afford to reject a woman because there will be another right along. Guys who are not meeting and relating with many women tend to operate from a perspective of scarcity, they hang on in with a bad choice, justifying inappropriate behavior because 'she might be the one and only'. The one thing you can be sure of, if you are relating with women in your life then you will cease accepting crap, you will cease treating women as rare creatures in short supply.

So vsski, you may disagree with the point I was making; it is your privilege to do so, but the point was made without malice and for your consideration. If you are not up to speed on the dating front (and only YOU know the truth of that!) you will get eaten alive.

Good fortune with your search for a woman who meets your standards! Keep turning over those rocks to find the diamond hidden from sight!

"For what else is the life of man but a kind of play in which men in various costumes perform until the director motions them offstage?" -Erasmus

Offline Rasputin

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If you want to avoid pro-daters, the solution is simple: learn to say no. If you are inviting someone to dinner, you have the final say as to where you will eat and what you will pay for. Likewise, if you are dragged on a shopping trip, say no. In other words, say no from time to time and then you will know whether or not she is into you or your money  :coffeeread:
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"So do I" - Molly35ru


Offline Hammer2722

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If you want to avoid pro-daters, the solution is simple: learn to say no. If you are inviting someone to dinner, you have the final say as to where you will eat and what you will pay for. Likewise, if you are dragged on a shopping trip, say no. In other words, say no from time to time and then you will know whether or not she is into you or your money  :coffeeread:

Could not have said it better myself. I stopped using agency translators because they were not there in my best interest but the girls and that is a sure fire way to get taken advantage of. Especially if you have no idea what this woman is really telling your lady of interest. Good luck with your search....  :party0031:

Online andrewfi

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If you want to avoid pro-daters, the solution is simple: learn to say no.

Entirely true!
The key word you used is 'LEARN'. Most social behavior must be learned and as a part of learning comes practice.

It is so sad that blokes turn up on this and other forums asking, post facto, a question that boils down to 'is this normal'.
You, Rasputin, have a big advantage, you speak fluent Russian. Most guys must infer from body language, limited vocal communication and most importantly their prior experience of actions in context.
I used to be a runner - we had training in tactics, we practiced not just running but also the implementation of tactics. Without the knowledge of those tactics I, and my team, would have been much less successful. That is what I refer to when writing about being 'match fit'. Training to be able to be competent in the basic sport but also the underlying knowledge of what other players are doing and why.

"For what else is the life of man but a kind of play in which men in various costumes perform until the director motions them offstage?" -Erasmus

Offline VSSKI

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Andrew -
appreciate the clarification and you may be surprised that I actually fully agree with you. Dating is something that most people have to learn and only with practice comes experience.
This said I would argue that even someone who is an excellent dater in his country and knows all the ins and outs may still struggle dating in a different culture and not just because of the language difference.
Based on my own experience cultural differences and different mentalities can be significant from region to region and even from country to country - I certainly had to learn this with my ex-Japanese girlfriend for example.
And yes, when it comes to the FSU I feel I have a lot to learn, even though I do actually go on frequent dates back home.
Some things of course are almost universal and body language tells a lot in most cultures (again Asia being soemwhat different from my experience at least).

Without wanting to bore people of how I think and act, I do need to clarify one important point to my post, as most guys here will say, all fine and good, but how could I not know that this was a scam and why didn't I say no, since this can't be normal no matter the cultural differences.

I never said it was normal nor did I ever think it was.
Let me repeat I was not interested in her and she could have offered me her sugar as Jean Claude called it on a silver plate, I wouldn't have taken it.
But I did think she was a nice person and I did invite her to go shopping not the other way round. I was happy to buy her the Armani jeans and had not problem with this (yes, this may seem strange to many for someone I barely know, but I felt if the girl came all the way from Nikolaev for nothing, at least I can buy her a nice present). And I wouldn't have said anything had she picked a lipstick and a perfume at the other store, but the amount was clearly inappropriate.
And while I could have said no, I hate scenes and decided to rather pay than have an embarrising scene in the shop (I know, not many people would do this, but my character flaws are my own).

What made me angry was not the money, although I admit I'd have rather spent it on something else, what makes me angry is dishonesty no matter form it takes.

So the reason why I posted the message other than as a lesson learned to others hopefully (apparently on one here needs it - great) is that I wanted to understand if this is indeed a common cultural trait of FSU women, since it's not something I have come across in any other part of the world I have experience with. Or could it be, as El_Guero stated, simply have been the girl thinking she struck gold and it would be ok to do this, again based on her culture and mentality.

And no I don't expect an answer you already answered it with your previous posts.

Offline Manny

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Ski, I take my hat off to you  tiphat  not only for writing this story; as it will surely benefit many others, but also for taking responsibility for your own actions. Something that not everyone does.

You will live and learn from this; as will many others.
I apologise.
And so he should.........

Offline Rasputin

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t I wanted to understand if this is indeed a common cultural trait of FSU women, since it's not something I have come across in any other part of the world I have experience with.

No it isn't, but a lot of men will write off bad behaviour as "cultural"  :-X
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"So do I" - Molly35ru

Offline welder

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Ski, I take my hat off to you  tiphat  not only for writing this story; as it will surely benefit many others, but also for taking responsibility for your own actions. Something that not everyone does.

You will live and learn from this; as will many others.

I second that Manny.  It is refreshing to see a guy step up an clearly denote he mucked up.  My hat is off to you for the honesty of your post.  It's obvious to you, thankfully, that this could have been avoided and that you take responsibility. 

Ski the only frustrating part is that your refusal to say no allows this viscous little game to continue.  If she was a prodater, they made a killing and the next guy should expect the same.  If she wasn't it has been reinforced that foreigners are lambs to be led to the slaughter house when things are not going well.  For your own sake and that of others coming behind you please jump outside your comfort zone and say no.

Best of luck for a better experience on your current trip.

Offline el_guero

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I think the saddest part is not knowing.

"We," the collective brilliance of our combined intellect, might be able to figure this woman out without ever meeting her.

But, until you ask the other person, you never know much of anything.

"We" keep encouraging each other to ask on the board and go with the consensus.  Do "we" expect that to work well within our marriages?  Is "she" supposed to go to a special board and ask her advisers what "I" mean when I say that "dog doesn't hunt here?"

Or, would it be easier if my (hopefully future) wife and I happen to TALK to (& with) each other?

Offline calmissile

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I read with interest this train wreck and can happily say that I avoided all of this crap by doing my research first on the forums and then purchasing the new book "The Truth About Russian Brides".  It is unfortunate that many men fall into these traps before understanding the game.  I posted a report on this forum under my screen name "calmissile" and it has not been read that much but gives a lot of insight into what I learned before ever making my first trip.

I just spent a week in Primorsk and had the best week of my life.  It was my first trip and I was only with one women..... the one that I have had daily Skype chats with for over a month.  My earlier post described all the advantages of having this type of daily contacta before ever spending any money on a trip let alone gifts, etc.

As it was my first trip to the Ukraine it was quite enlightening even though I thought I had learned a lot before going.  Rather than post more of it here , I will post a trip report on my experience in a day or so.   The experience I had totally eliminated all the scam stuff and also gave me a great deal of knowledge about the culture.   I do plan on bringing my fiance to the US and getting married as soon as we can arrange it.  After reading my trip report you will understand why she is such a gem.  Please note that I did not go to the Ukraine to find a wife.  I had already met  her on line and established a close relationsip.  I think going there and 'window shopping' is probably the worse possible method to find a wife.

Calmissile...... Doug
Doug (Calmissile)

Online andrewfi

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When talking of 'cultural differences' we need to understand there are many cultures. For example, those of you who are from the USA can be assumed to be members of that cultural group one might describe as 'American'. Those of you who are Christian belong to a cultural group we might call 'Christians' and within those sub cultures we have the common factors found among USAians seeking wives from the FSU. Can that group be described? Yes, it can be done and has been done and the results are surprisingly similar from one study to another.

Knowing this we can also know that the group of women who market themselves to foreign guys as wives are a part of a cultural group too. There are differences between the average of Russian women and the average of Russian women who seek foreign husbands. One difference between that group of women and the group of AL Russian women is, I am certain, the bias toward acquisitiveness and dissatisfaction with what she perceives she can get as a husband within her normal peer group. This is the counterpart of the 'bigger better deal' seeking that is so much a part of what you guys go on about when seeking a Russian bride.

It seems to me that there IS therefore a whole load of cultural difference that you lot will meet. Meeting women who are more acquisitive than the norm is simply part and parcel of finding a foreign bride using foreign facing marriage agencies!
All that vsski likely found was a woman who was a tad more extreme than the norm for foreign husband seekers but I am sure that she will find a bloke who meets her needs, or at least with whom she can reach a decent compromise.

So, those who say that these are not cultural differences are incorrect, they ARE cultural differences but you simply need to identify the culture before making a statement of comparison.
That said, I DO think that there is a tendency toward materialism and acquisitiveness among today's Russians that is greater than for many folks living in the USA. It s largely a perceived need to close the gaps, to keep up with the Joneses as we say in the UK.

You guys Do need to learn to say NO to these women otherwise you are, in aggregate, making the life of all of you who marry one of these women harder. But that, again goes back to the match fitness thing. As most of us know, in life we tend to prefer to say 'yes' rather than 'no' and getting the balance right takes practice.

"For what else is the life of man but a kind of play in which men in various costumes perform until the director motions them offstage?" -Erasmus

Offline VSSKI

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TomT,
I have to correct a statement I made earlier. Now that I just came back from my second trip in Ukraine and have learned a lot more - and this time no train wreck to report  :).
You were absolutely right when you said to get the agency translator out of the way asap - I met enough women now to know that those who are serious have no problem at all with doing this and it makes for conversations that are not only much better, open and honest, but it really makes it so much easier to understand the woman you are dealing with and what she is truly looking for.

I tip my hat to you  tiphat !