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Author Topic: Child Abduction and Ukraine  (Read 5337 times)

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Offline dwfunk

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Child Abduction and Ukraine
« on: September 07, 2010, 10:51:21 AM »
Note to Mods; not sure if this is the appropriate place, please move as necessary.


Here's the plea:

Dude is going through a hard divorce from his Ukrainian wife stateside. 
She is now a US citizen. 
They have young children born in the US, so they are US citizens. 
She's seeking sole custody. 
He's concerned she's a flight risk and will do as her UA parents want by returning to UA and taking the kids with her. 
He needs to know if and how his kids might be taken by her to UA.


Information being sought are statistics on Child Abductions to the Ukraine and how well does Ukraine cooperate in returning abducted children.
Also statistics on "corruption" in Ukraine Court systems would be useful. 
We all know the anecdotal information, but that's hearsay and not useful in a US court room.


-david




Offline Muzh_1

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Re: Child Abduction and Ukraine
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2010, 11:01:25 AM »
Note to Mods; not sure if this is the appropriate place, please move as necessary.


Here's the plea:

Dude is going through a hard divorce from his Ukrainian wife stateside. 
She is now a US citizen. 
They have young children born in the US, so they are US citizens. 
She's seeking sole custody. 
He's concerned she's a flight risk and will do as her UA parents want by returning to UA and taking the kids with her. 
He needs to know if and how his kids might be taken by her to UA.


Information being sought are statistics on Child Abductions to the Ukraine and how well does Ukraine cooperate in returning abducted children.
Also statistics on "corruption" in Ukraine Court systems would be useful. 
We all know the anecdotal information, but that's hearsay and not useful in a US court room.


-david

Wow, news is spreading.

I talked to Dude quite sometime ago and asked him if he was concerned of her taking off with the kids. He said he had not thought about it. All I have is anecdotal stuff and told him so. You know I'm behind him all the way.

Offline ecocks

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Re: Child Abduction and Ukraine
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2010, 11:20:10 AM »
I'd strongly suggest he check with the US State Department, the Embassy in Kyiv or have his lawyer track through whether the courts have supported visitation and access issues. She will still be able to garnish his wages for support/alimony from over there since the court that awarded the divorce is where he is earning money. Short of moving overseas and going black himself it's a mostly one-way street, just like home.

Categorizing her as a "flight risk" isn't correct. If it is her birth country, she's not "fleeing" to escape anything. Her physical location and changed financial circumstance are just going to be "normal", given that he knowingly married someone from another country and fathered children with them. If she has primary physical custody, he is stuck being reactive to what she does. If he thinks she can't go because he won't "give permission" then she'll just go to the court and get the judge to give her permission to take the kids out of the country.

No judge is going to order the children's passports secured, restrict the ex's travel or these wild visions guys get when they are so certain the law is on their side and "she just can't do that" unless they are that primary custody parent. Just as a woman can get divorced in NYC and move to Fairbanks Alaska she can get divorced in Podunk, CA and move to Dumpsk, RU. Until she actually breaks the law by denying the visitation or failing to make her share of support payments, there is no violation of the divorce decree or child-custody order.

Yes, the husband will be notified when she goes out of the country but no judge is going to deny her the ability to return to her homeland to live if she has custody. With her changed financial situation the non-custodial parent is going to be on the hook for travel costs involved for visitation just like he would trying to visit kids living in Alaska if he lived in Key West.

Get a very good lawyer and consider carefully what the child visitation and physical custody issues are when getting the initial agreement together.


Offline Muzh_1

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Re: Child Abduction and Ukraine
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2010, 11:32:41 AM »
I'd strongly suggest he check with the US State Department, the Embassy in Kyiv or have his lawyer track through whether the courts have supported visitation and access issues. She will still be able to garnish his wages for support/alimony from over there since the court that awarded the divorce is where he is earning money. Short of moving overseas and going black himself it's a mostly one-way street, just like home.

Categorizing her as a "flight risk" isn't correct. If it is her birth country, she's not "fleeing" to escape anything. Her physical location and changed financial circumstance are just going to be "normal", given that he knowingly married someone from another country and fathered children with them. If she has primary physical custody, he is stuck being reactive to what she does. If he thinks she can't go because he won't "give permission" then she'll just go to the court and get the judge to give her permission to take the kids out of the country.

No judge is going to order the children's passports secured, restrict the ex's travel or these wild visions guys get when they are so certain the law is on their side and "she just can't do that" unless they are that primary custody parent. Just as a woman can get divorced in NYC and move to Fairbanks Alaska she can get divorced in Podunk, CA and move to Dumpsk, RU. Until she actually breaks the law by denying the visitation or failing to make her share of support payments, there is no violation of the divorce decree or child-custody order.

Yes, the husband will be notified when she goes out of the country but no judge is going to deny her the ability to return to her homeland to live if she has custody. With her changed financial situation the non-custodial parent is going to be on the hook for travel costs involved for visitation just like he would trying to visit kids living in Alaska if he lived in Key West.

Get a very good lawyer and consider carefully what the child visitation and physical custody issues are when getting the initial agreement together.

The problem is that the woman is still here in the US. They are fighting it out in court and each one is asking for sole custody. I should tell you that his chances of getting sole custody are much better than hers. She can move back to UA but not with the children in tow.

Offline dwfunk

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Re: Child Abduction and Ukraine
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2010, 11:38:31 AM »
Categorizing her as a "flight risk" isn't correct. If it is her birth country, she's not "fleeing" to escape anything. Her physical location and changed financial circumstance are just going to be "normal", given that he knowingly married someone from another country and fathered children with them. If she has primary physical custody, he is stuck being reactive to what she does. If he thinks she can't go because he won't "give permission" then she'll just go to the court and get the judge to give her permission to take the kids out of the country.

Highly disagree with that statement that there is no "flight risk."  Yes there is.  Lots of it.

Visiting and returning are one thing.  "Visiting" and not returning is HIGHLY likely, and that is what "flight risk" is.


-david

Offline dwfunk

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Re: Child Abduction and Ukraine
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2010, 11:44:35 AM »
No judge is going to order the children's passports secured, restrict the ex's travel

Yes they can, and they do.  A lot more than you think. 


Quote
Yes, the husband will be notified when she goes out of the country


Nope.  The US does not have exit controls.  He will know nothing and get no notice if she leaves the country.



-david

Offline ecocks

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Re: Child Abduction and Ukraine
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2010, 12:21:45 PM »
Categorizing her as a "flight risk" isn't correct. If it is her birth country, she's not "fleeing" to escape anything. Her physical location and changed financial circumstance are just going to be "normal", given that he knowingly married someone from another country and fathered children with them. If she has primary physical custody, he is stuck being reactive to what she does. If he thinks she can't go because he won't "give permission" then she'll just go to the court and get the judge to give her permission to take the kids out of the country.

Highly disagree with that statement that there is no "flight risk."  Yes there is.  Lots of it.

Visiting and returning are one thing.  "Visiting" and not returning is HIGHLY likely, and that is what "flight risk" is.


-david

Talk with your lawyer. I believe you're wrong and in for a big shock.

Offline ecocks

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Re: Child Abduction and Ukraine
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2010, 12:28:23 PM »
I'd strongly suggest he check with the US State Department, the Embassy in Kyiv or have his lawyer track through whether the courts have supported visitation and access issues. She will still be able to garnish his wages for support/alimony from over there since the court that awarded the divorce is where he is earning money. Short of moving overseas and going black himself it's a mostly one-way street, just like home.

Categorizing her as a "flight risk" isn't correct. If it is her birth country, she's not "fleeing" to escape anything. Her physical location and changed financial circumstance are just going to be "normal", given that he knowingly married someone from another country and fathered children with them. If she has primary physical custody, he is stuck being reactive to what she does. If he thinks she can't go because he won't "give permission" then she'll just go to the court and get the judge to give her permission to take the kids out of the country.

No judge is going to order the children's passports secured, restrict the ex's travel or these wild visions guys get when they are so certain the law is on their side and "she just can't do that" unless they are that primary custody parent. Just as a woman can get divorced in NYC and move to Fairbanks Alaska she can get divorced in Podunk, CA and move to Dumpsk, RU. Until she actually breaks the law by denying the visitation or failing to make her share of support payments, there is no violation of the divorce decree or child-custody order.

Yes, the husband will be notified when she goes out of the country but no judge is going to deny her the ability to return to her homeland to live if she has custody. With her changed financial situation the non-custodial parent is going to be on the hook for travel costs involved for visitation just like he would trying to visit kids living in Alaska if he lived in Key West.

Get a very good lawyer and consider carefully what the child visitation and physical custody issues are when getting the initial agreement together.

The problem is that the woman is still here in the US. They are fighting it out in court and each one is asking for sole custody. I should tell you that his chances of getting sole custody are much better than hers. She can move back to UA but not with the children in tow.

If he gets sole custody then, as stated, that is a different situation. He has far more control of the movement and schedule. Even getting shared custody with him as primary residence gives him a significantly stronger hand in this situation.

If she gets sole custody and wishes to move back to Ukraine he's facing a long, arduous visitation process.

This is what you pay the best lawyer you can find to setup for you in the best way possible.

Offline dwfunk

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Re: Child Abduction and Ukraine
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2010, 12:37:09 PM »
Categorizing her as a "flight risk" isn't correct. If it is her birth country, she's not "fleeing" to escape anything. Her physical location and changed financial circumstance are just going to be "normal", given that he knowingly married someone from another country and fathered children with them. If she has primary physical custody, he is stuck being reactive to what she does. If he thinks she can't go because he won't "give permission" then she'll just go to the court and get the judge to give her permission to take the kids out of the country.

Highly disagree with that statement that there is no "flight risk."  Yes there is.  Lots of it.

Visiting and returning are one thing.  "Visiting" and not returning is HIGHLY likely, and that is what "flight risk" is.


-david

Talk with your lawyer. I believe you're wrong and in for a big shock.


sigh . . .    what ever . . .  believe what you want . . .


my third home is the family law court house . . .    (I'm not a lawyer)




-david

Online B.B.

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Re: Child Abduction and Ukraine
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2010, 12:37:57 PM »
My sole piece of advice is, whatever anyone agrees to as a "temporary" arrangement whilst things get sorted has a way of becoming "permanent".

B/B
Saving the World, One Clue at a Time
If your religion insults my intelligence, don't be surprised when my intelligence insults your religion.

Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Child Abduction and Ukraine
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2010, 12:40:30 PM »
OK, first off in a hurry so this'll be quick...

Precautions:

Photos, fingerprints, copies of all documentation relating to the children (if the children are on the parent's passports (US?) ensure passport numbers are known; and

Check out this website:

http://www.travel.state.gov/

Under Children &Family...

..."You may also ask that your child's name be entered into the State Department's Children’s Passport Issuance Alert Program. This will enable the Department to notify you or your attorney if an application for a U.S. passport for the child is received anywhere in the United States or at any U.S. embassy or consulate abroad. If you have a court order that either grants you sole custody, joint legal custody, or prohibits your child from traveling without your permission or the permission of the court, the Department may also refuse to issue a U.S. passport for your child." (taken from a related website, not sure if it's accurate)

...May also be relevant. Sorry, don't know if this is all states, enforceable or whether Dude has already gone past this stage.

Hope this helps...also as stated consult a good lawyer, that can't be emphasized enough.

Brass
“I am a Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, or free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind."  ~ John Diefenbaker

P.S....Unless you happen to live in Quebec and are subject to the Quebec Charter Of Values, of course.

Offline TomT

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Re: Child Abduction and Ukraine
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2010, 06:27:05 PM »
If the agents at the security checkpoint are doing their job, they will not allow one parent to depart with a U.S. citizen child without an affidavit of permission from the left-behind parent or a court document which waives the requirement.
"Get away from the keyboard little man. I know where you live." (Message left in my facebook mailbox by our resident psychopath.)

Offline ecocks

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Re: Child Abduction and Ukraine
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2010, 06:54:44 PM »
If the agents at the security checkpoint are doing their job, they will not allow one parent to depart with a U.S. citizen child without an affidavit of permission from the left-behind parent or a court document which waives the requirement.

+2

Offline froid

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Re: Child Abduction and Ukraine
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2010, 09:17:43 PM »
Except that exiting is much simpler when there are no exit controls.  I had all my paperwork and documentation ready when I left Toronto to Moscow with Kirill.  No one asked for anything, didn't blink an eye, and I sailed through the Russian passport control. 

Mila's sister, with the same paperwork, had issues getting him out of Russia at the exit controls.  They were questioned and had to show all their documents.  The biggest issue was his father, who, with no custody, and having signed a letter allowing immigration (which they even had with them), hadn't signed an additional letter allowing Kirill to leave after his visit this pas summer. 

So I will believe that everyone is right here...and that anything may happen...just you don't know how much an issue...or non-issue, taking a child across borders may be. 
Look, we're gonna spend half the night driving around the Hills looking for this one party and you're going to say it sucks and we're all gonna leave and then we're gonna go look for this other party. But all the parties and all the bars, they all suck. <-Same goes for forums!

Offline BC

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Re: Child Abduction and Ukraine
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2010, 01:12:51 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Convention_on_the_Civil_Aspects_of_International_Child_Abduction

is a good place to start.  Agreements are in place between the US and Ukraine.

It's not perfect and a difficult process to go through but better than nothing.



 

 

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