Sex in the City

[2tallbill]

Sex in the City

http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/watch/id/600382/n/Sex-in-the-City

[Zabikol]

Grim viewing

[Excedryn]

That actually angered me. I can't really explain why this report evoked such a harsh reaction in me but it definitely did. Maybe others will view it as a sort of cry for help in a hopeless situation? I viewed it as an exploitation of the current situation like someone had a big banner that read "Come to Ukraine for Sex." I didn't like it.

[WestCoast]

Grim view of life for some women in Ukraine.  However bad as sex tourism in Ukraine, sex tourism is worse in places like the Philippines, Thailand, India and several other places in Asia.     

[shakespear]

That actually angered me. I can't really explain why this report evoked such a harsh reaction in me but it definitely did. Maybe others will view it as a sort of cry for help in a hopeless situation? I viewed it as an exploitation of the current situation like someone had a big banner that read "Come to Ukraine for Sex." I didn't like it.

Such responses remind me of the movie, "Casablanca" when Office Renault says to Ricky, "I'm shocked to discover that gambling is going on in this establishment" then in the next instant, accepts his gambling winnings from the casino manager. 

Exploitation?  Ya think?  Men have been paying for sex since the beginning of time.  Many will argue that in one way or another, ALL men pay for sex.  Economically challenged countries have been the target of sexual predators from more economically sound countries for the past 400 years. 

Unless evolution somehow takes away the pleasure and gratification of male orgasm, do you really think this will ever change?   

[andrewfi]

Sex 'tourism' is not really the issue here. The overwhelming majority of men and women who might be described as 'sex tourists' pay for what they seek and so, it can be argued (and not with difficulty) that they leave their destination better than they found it.

Don't agree, then think on this...
If a woman (or man) works as a prostitute it is rarely their first choice in life, they do it because they need to, in the end they do it to survive. If they could not sell their bodies then at least some of these people would die. When you pay a prostitute you feed him/her, shelter him/her and provide for their families. You have made their lives better.

The real issue is the economic conditions that make prostitution the best choice for many people. Deal with the economic issues and, just as we have already seen with the mail order bride industry, sex tourism's cleaner sister, and the problem removes itself. As people's prospects improve they make different choices, so, just as a woman looks around herself and sees the prospect of a decent life improving and so decides to not sell herself to a foreign man as his wife so another woman chooses to not sell her body by the hour to foreigners or local guys.

After economic improvement comes social improvement but social improvements must be paid for, hence the need to improve the economic lot of those who are minded to choose prostitution.

The programme linked made a big thing about the street kids and linked them to 'sex tourism'. If you listen to what the talking head said he noted that the street kids are on roads around and outside the cities (Odessa was the main reference here) These kids are serving truckers and locals, not incoming tourists. That may not be the case in parts of the Czech Republic, for example, but Odessa or Kiev? Almost certainly as tourists rarely drive to either place and they have plenty of money for the upmarket girls. Other kids are hidden away in homes or private houses and, again serve a local market simply because of the lack of local knowledge on the part of the holidaymakers. I am not saying it does not happen but to suggest the trade is there because of vacationers is simply misleading, it is locals who drive the market.

Just as those involved in selling women as wives are saying that the economic difficulties in the FSU has led to an increase in the availability of women as wives so, as the documentary noted, the same situation causes people to turn to prostitution. One thing to think about, there is going to be a significant crossover between those two sets of women given that the driver in each group is the same. Selling one's body by the hour is essentially a short term option, selling one's body in marriage is a much longer term choice but it is the same mechanism and for the same reasons. (and before you all get upset, just as there are 'tarts with the heart of gold' so too exists the woman who marries a fat rich foreigner who does so for love and I am sure that ALL of you guys have married such women!)

Do not attack the morals, attack the money.

[msmoby]

Such responses remind me of the movie, "Casablanca" when Office Renault says to Ricky, "I'm shocked to discover that gambling is going on in this establishment" then in the next instant, accepts his gambling winnings from the casino manager.  

..and YOUR response would appear to be one of a guy who would know about needing to pay to have sex ...

Exploitation?  Ya think?  Men have been paying for sex since the beginning of time.  Many will argue that in one way or another, ALL men pay for sex.

'Many' ?! I think you do your fellow men a 'disservice'

Economically challenged countries have been the target of sexual predators from more economically sound countries for the past 400 years.  

I don't know, Shakey, I'd always assumed Prostitutes were 'desperate for cash'.. but the FSU lasses I met in Cyprus seemed quite 'switched on' .. and happy to fleece the IDIOTS who were their clients and go back home with enough to buy an apartment..

Unless evolution somehow takes away the pleasure and gratification of male orgasm, do you really think this will ever change?  

 

[msmoby]

Sex 'tourism' is not really the issue here. The overwhelming majority of men and women who might be described as 'sex tourists' pay for what they seek and so, it can be argued (and not with difficulty) that they leave their destination better than they found it.

if they ain't careful.. they may be bringing back a 'momento' they'd rather not 'contract'..

Don't agree, then think on this...

OK, let's 'see ' ..

If a woman (or man) works as a prostitute it is rarely their first choice in life, they do it because they need to, in the end they do it to survive.

Actually, some do it to provide an improvement lifestyle they ( normally )  aspire to...

If they could not sell their bodies then at least some of these people would die. When you pay a prostitute you feed him/her, shelter him/her and provide for their families. You have made their lives better.

Depends what other things you 'shared' ...  and how you perceive relying on folk who can only get sex, by paying for it, as 'better' ...

The real issue is the economic conditions that make prostitution the best choice for many people. Deal with the economic issues and, just as we have already seen with the mail order bride industry, sex tourism's cleaner sister, and the problem removes itself. As people's prospects improve they make different choices, so, just as a woman looks around herself and sees the prospect of a decent life improving and so decides to not sell herself to a foreign man as his wife so another woman chooses to not sell her body by the hour to foreigners or local guys.

Still looking at everything as if it is rationalised by economics, andrewfi ?

After economic improvement comes social improvement but social improvements must be paid for, hence the need to improve the economic lot of those who are minded to choose prostitution.

I believe I made this point to Shakey.. some folks don't NEED to be prostitutes.. they CHOSE this route to 'betterment' ..

The programme linked made a big thing about the street kids and linked them to 'sex tourism'. If you listen to what the talking head said he noted that the street kids are on roads around and outside the cities (Odessa was the main reference here) These kids are serving truckers and locals, not incoming tourists. That may not be the case in parts of the Czech Republic, for example, but Odessa or Kiev? Almost certainly as tourists rarely drive to either place and they have plenty of money for the upmarket girls. Other kids are hidden away in homes or private houses and, again serve a local market simply because of the lack of local knowledge on the part of the holidaymakers. I am not saying it does not happen but to suggest the trade is there because of vacationers is simply misleading, it is locals who drive the market.

I'm surprised at you , andrewfi..   Odessa is a port town.. and we all know that certain occupations spend a long-time away from home ..

Just as those involved in selling women as wives are saying that the economic difficulties in the FSU has led to an increase in the availability of women as wives so, as the documentary noted, the same situation causes people to turn to prostitution. One thing to think about, there is going to be a significant crossover between those two sets of women given that the driver in each group is the same. Selling one's body by the hour is essentially a short term option, selling one's body in marriage is a much longer term choice but it is the same mechanism and for the same reasons. (and before you all get upset, just as there are 'tarts with the heart of gold' so too exists the woman who marries a fat rich foreigner who does so for love and I am sure that ALL of you guys have married such women!)

Andrewfi, if what you had written was in anyway thought-provoking material - based on sound evidence- I guess I could 'excuse' your conclusions ... however, this comes across as the paragraph of a Troll... shame we can't vote on it

Do not attack the morals, attack the money.

Don't feed a Troll..

[leslied]

Prostitution is part of life in every strata of Ukraine society.  From lonely lorry divers picking up girls dressed in nothing at all,  to rich businessmen in an exclusive club on a boys night out...

The mistake here is judging Ukraine society on the values of a foreign culture.  Foreigners are a small percentage of the market except in tourist spots.  Sure you see a lot of them in summer in central Kiev, Odessa and the Krym.  That's a matter of supply and demand.  The vast majority of the trade is domestic and not very glamerous.  Ukraine does not stigmatise hookers like US and UK society.  Marital infidelity is seen as quite normal.  Indeed if a rich middle aged guy does not have a misstress,  there will be gossip about him being gomik...

There is no "nanny state" or guilt stricken ruling class who wants to dictate how people live.  Everybody had their fill of that under communism!

[andrewfi]

moby, most professional sex workers are VERY careful about their health and thus enforce precautions upon their clients. At the very bottom and very top of the market power and money may change this. I guess most men here (or 'sex tourists' will not be operating at either extreme. Bottom line, HIV and other diseases are more likley to be contracted from railway station hookers and civilian than from most professionals.

Some women Do make a conscious choice of profession but, although you likely do not know it, prostitution is difficult and demanding work. It is not an easy choce to make and that is why it is usually a matter, initially at least, of survival. Some will stay around becasue they understand the business and can make it a viable life option without too much emotional damage and, yes, for some, a decent lifestyle. A large proportion of hookers are substance abusers, usually they were not so before they started in the life.

The documentary was making an invalid point, one made very often by certain interest groups. It is easy to demonise the clients and some jurisdictions make being a client an offence. My point clearly made was that in truth the client is providing the requisites of life, even for the railway station kids.
That is why it IS about the economics.
Moby, I know that you do not understand thsi but I will make the point again...
Economics deals with the allocation of resources and thus it falls at the root of most human activity. You can not solve the problems of prostitution absent alternatives and those alternatives must be paid for. As long as the economic system justifies prostitution by not providing life changing options then everything else will, in the end, fail.

Odessa is just one city in a country where most cities are not ports. The documentary, to the best of my recollection was referring to sex tourists and their activities. Seafarers were not, I think mentioned, but yes, ports do tend to have brothels catering to the maritime trade, so what?

In drawing a comparions between two demographic segments I was making a point. Maybe worthy of discussion. We already know there is a crossover between the two, mentioning the known stuff hardly needs more than to be mentioned. pay me to do to the research and analysis and I will do so. I doubt you could afford it though.

Attacking the money rather than spurious morality is simple commonsense but as you so capably demonstrate 'commonsense' is not exactly a common commodity.

[msmoby]

  Ukraine does not stigmatise hookers like US and UK society.  Marital infidelity is seen as quite normal.  Indeed if a rich middle aged guy does not have a misstress,  there will be gossip about him being gomik...

Come on, these are two HUGE sweeping and inaccurate generalisations... 

[andrewfi]

  Ukraine does not stigmatise hookers like US and UK society.  Marital infidelity is seen as quite normal.  Indeed if a rich middle aged guy does not have a misstress,  there will be gossip about him being gomik...

Come on, these are two HUGE sweeping and inaccurate generalisations...  

In terms of actions, in some aspects, possibly. In terms of attitudes held by many, if not most people, I think not.

If you think otherwise take a look at the large dating databases with millions of Ukrainian members. Think about why their classifications run as they do and why it might be that for prostitutes and women seeking money for relationships are accepted and welcomed.
Look at the profiles and, even ignoring the profiles where people seeking relationships indicate that they are married, look at the ages of the people involved, look at the number of kids they have. You will be able to infer that the attitude of the population toward money for sex is pretty clear (it is accepted and part of the norm) and you will be able to infer that a large number of the people advertising for relationships are of that demographic that one would normally expect to be married. And that is empirical evidence from just a single and easy to see source.

All normal communication involves generalisations. If you want to choose to discuss how much generalisation is OK then that is likely a matter for a learned paper or two published in the appropriate journals.
For example, unless you make a generalisation then your comment above would be impossible to make since you are making a generalisation based upon your dissenting opinion.

[leslied]

Well Moby when you say -

"Come on, these are two HUGE sweeping and inaccurate generalisations..."

You just demonstrate your ignorance of Ukrainian culture.  

I don't wish to get involved in a meaningless argument with you but if you had spent time living in Ukraine (and I mean living there for months - not just vacations!).  You would recognise the truth of those statements.

Out of my wife's primary class 5 girls became prostitutes.  2 of them are gone,  the other 3 are married and cannot be described as poor.  I met one of them at a shashlik picnic last summer.  If my wife had not told me I would never have guessed...

An affair with a married man is almost a rite of passage for attractive young Ukrainian girls.  Guys of their age generally don't have the money to dine in fancy restaurants or go on vacations. Ukraine is not an emancipated society - young girls do not earn enough money to finance these pleasures.  This is one of the "skeletons" you won't be told about until you have been married a couple of years.  The majority of my wife's classmates have done this.  Some more than once!

I personally know several middle aged Ukrainian businessmen.  ALL of them keep young mistresses. Their wives know (and grudgingly accept) this situation.  Divorce settlements in Ukraine are way below those in the west.  One of my wife's friends could not accept her rich husbands infidelity.  She swopped mansion, mercedes and mink coats for a two room flat and a job in a shop.  Oh she wishes herself back!  Dad pays for private school and 3-4 foreign holidays a year for his daughter.  She makes her own clothes...

[Olga_Mouse]

Out of my wife's primary class 5 girls became prostitutes.  

2 of them are gone,  the other 3 are married and cannot be described as poor.  

Hm... out of my primary class 5 girls married foreign men.

1 lives in UK, 1 in Germany, 1 in Cyprus, 1 in Spain, 1 in America.

Maybe that's because my primary class was in Moscow, Russia? 

[shakespear]

..and YOUR response would appear to be one of a guy who would know about needing to pay to have sex ...

Moby, YOU'VE been PAYING for sex since the day you got married; just unwilling to acknowledge it.

Just off the top of my head -

1)  money you are paying in support the expenses of your wife

2)  time spent satisfying her emotional needs

3)  loss of liberty to have an intimate relationship with another woman

4)  time lost addressing and accomplishing her demands so she is happy in the marriage.

Just because you are doing all these things willingly, doesn't mean they aren't a "price " you are paying, or a sacrifice you are making to insure you have a successful marriage; which includes the expectation of intimacy with your wife.

Still think you're not "paying for sex"?  Any man who believes he not paying for sex (in one way or another) is a fool.  ROTFLMAO! 

[2tallbill]

..and YOUR response would appear to be one of a guy who would know about needing to pay to have sex ...

Moby, YOU'VE been PAYING for sex since the day you got married; just too brainwashed to realize it.

Shakey is a statement like that productive? 

[andrewfi]

Out of my wife's primary class 5 girls became prostitutes. 

2 of them are gone,  the other 3 are married and cannot be described as poor. 

Hm... out of my primary class 5 girls married foreign men.

1 lives in UK, 1 in Germany, 1 in Cyprus, 1 in Spain, 1 in America.

Maybe that's because my primary class was in Moscow, Russia? 

How many in the classes?

And, of the ones who married foreign guys, how many would have married them if they were not relatively wealthy and secure? (long term sale as opposed to sort term rental)
I am NOT making any value judgements here, OK?

And Bill, Shakey has a point. Whether he thinks the nationality of one's wife exacerbates the effect or not we don't know (yet) but it is a not unreasonable point to make and a very commonly held view - of course you do not have to AGREE with the observation but that does not alter its validity.

[Olga_Mouse]

Moby, YOU'VE been PAYING for sex since the day you got married; just too brainwashed to realize it.

Shakey is a statement like that productive? 

I guess it depends on whether the woman is perceived to be a partner \ companion, or sexual partner only... and whether she also works, or the man is the only bread winner in the household?  

[Olga_Mouse]

How many in the classes?

Do you mean how many girls there were in my class? 22 girls, 11 boys (2 boys are already in a better world...   )

And, of the ones who married foreign guys, how many would have married them if they were not relatively wealthy and secure? (long term sale as opposed to sort term rental)

Dunno...   I guess the main factor was that it has been a "specialised" language school, with most of the pupils being diplomates' children. Thus a) quite wealthy by the Soviet standards and b) more open to the idea of "foreign affair" than other Soviet Union childred.

I am NOT making any value judgements here, OK?

Sure - we're talking only about statistics, right?  

[andrewfi]

So, Olga your class was not so representative of the generality of young Muscovites?

And no value judgement because I see nothing wrong in renting out one's body even as I'd prefer that nobody ever felt they had to choose to do it.

[shakespear]

I don't know, Shakey, I'd always assumed Prostitutes were 'desperate for cash'.. but the FSU lasses I met in Cyprus seemed quite 'switched on' .. and happy to fleece the IDIOTS who were their clients and go back home with enough to buy an apartment..

Nobody is getting "fleeced".  "Johns" aren't necessarily idiots.  Prostitution is nothing more that a personal services contract between two willing parties; no different than when a dentist agreed to clean your teeth for a fee or when a plumber agrees to fix a leaky pipe in your house for a fee. 

[Olga_Mouse]

So, Olga your class was not so representative of the generality of young Muscovites?

Maybe not - but still, the number of girls married to the foreigners is quite impressive (23%).

Comparing this digit to the number of Ukrainian women from 1 primary school class who have chosen to be prostitues we might come to the conclusion that the %% of women who were seeking a "financial upgrade via sex" was about the same.

Just some of the women have chosen the "short term" payment, others (following Shakey's logic) - long-term  

[andrewfi]

So, Olga your class was not so representative of the generality of young Muscovites?

Maybe not - but still, the number of girls married to the foreigners is quite impressive (23%).

Comparing this digit to the digit of the Ukrainian women from 1 primary school class who have chosen to be prostitues we might come to the conclusion that the %% of women who were seeking a "financial upgrade via sex" was about the same.

Just some of the women have chosen the "short term" payment, others (following Shakey's logic) - long-term  

Actually that was my point but it is harder to justify in an environemnt where the girls are as you descirbed and have different opportunities. IMHO there is soemthing of a difference between settiling down with a bloke who is a stranger in a strange land and a bloke who you might have met coz you new his brother or sister and who jsut happens to live in a not-so-strange land.

I recall a segment on US tv from the late 90's wherein the reporter sugested that they had done a survey of Moscow school girls and found that about 30% had as a career choice prostitute serving rich foreigners- I always felt the figure was too high but recalling the period it was hardly a surprise that girls should see the opportunity.

[shakespear]

[I guess it depends on whether the woman is perceived to be a partner \ companion, or sexual partner only... and whether she also works, or the man is the only bread winner in the household? 

Not really.  In our society, when a man makes the decision to marry, he gives up the right to engage in certain behaviors and commits to undertake other behaviors that might not always be pleasant or what he wants to do.  Society also imposes the obligation for him to provide economic support for his wife and any offspring that are the product of the marriage.  In exchange for this, in most jurisdictions he has the legal right to expect to receive sex from his wife.  Failure of a wife to permit "consortium" for an extending period of time with her lawful husband is a justified grounds for divorce. 

Mutually exclusive dating prior to marriage imposes virtually the same sacrifices on the man as marriage.

Men who pay a prostitute for sex are simply making the choice to purchase the desired short-term sexual gratification offered by a woman without incurring the long term obligations and liabilities involved in obtaining sex from a woman that require the establishment of a more permanent emotional relationship.     

Personally, so long as both parties to the transaction are acting on their own free will and are not being compelled by threat of force, bodily harm or economic blackmail to engage in this behavior, I don't think it's anybody's business except the two parties involved.   

[leslied]

A question Olga

I was refering to first school - from age 7.  There were around 40 children in a class and my wife knows of only one other girl from primary school who married a foreigner.  She is in Germany and has a couple of kids.  My wife went on to musical college and then conservatory.  The percentage of women from these classes now living abroad is very much higher.  Many of the women from conservatory now live abroad and did so on their own abilities.